"Militarization" of the police

[champu 1]

cvfd1399

They don't have to worry about their copy machine killing them at their job if you have never been an officer or combat veteran you can not imagine.

Take care when dismissing peoples' imaginations.

That said, the repeated comments that people "don't know what it's like" is all the more reason that if compliance in a particular manner is expected (under penalty of deadly force) then it has to be stated as such. Many people here have stated that they articulate actions and move slowly, and that's all well and good, but there's no "citizen academy" that everyone has to go to in order to learn how to not get shot by law enforcement.

You can't say "it should be obvious not to suddenly lunge into the car" and claim "you don't know what we're up against" in the next breath.

In most of these cases btw I don't have a problem with the offending officer merely being fired, I think it's just very difficult for that and only that to actually happen.

[cvfd1399 0]

life or death and the decision has to be made in a fraction of a second do you expect all 500,000+ cops in the us to be 100% accurate? Sure he could have ran, waited till the guy pulled out the gun and did an old west shootout draw. I will tell you action is always faster than reaction. Go watch those 2 videos I posted earlier, those shots happened almost instantly, and one cop died., the other was shot in the face.

[champu 1]

I've watched the two videos you posted.

My comment was in regards to the video in post #263 of the thread. You seem to be focused on the part where the motorist starts rummaging in his car. My focus is on 0:32 - 0:35 in the video, before the rummaging, where the officer has the motorist's undivided attention. He's stone still with his hands visible until the officer tells him to do something.

[cvfd1399 0]

Answer the first part of my question. Do you expect half a million humans to be 100% right when faced wth a fraction of a second life or death choice?

[champu 1]

No, of course not.

What part of my post(s) makes you think I do?

[GeorgiaDon 362]

cvfd1399

life or death and the decision has to be made in a fraction of a second do you expect all 500,000+ cops in the us to be 100% accurate? Sure he could have ran, waited till the guy pulled out the gun and did an old west shootout draw. I will tell you action is always faster than reaction. Go watch those 2 videos I posted earlier, those shots happened almost instantly, and one cop died., the other was shot in the face.

Then why bother to try to arrest people at all? Why not just shoot them all? An ounce of prevention and all that.

Seriously, if you think it justified to shoot people who are reaching for their wallet, after you just told them to do just that, then you really do advocate all out war between the police and the citizenry.

Champu's comment that the driver was out of the car, with both hands visible, totally behaving normally and not moving until told to get his license, is spot on. At that point, instead of telling the guy "give me your license" the officer could have asked "where is your license". "Give me your license" can reasonably be expected to elicit a response, either reaching into a pocket or into the car, that could be seen as threatening (if you are inclined to see it that way). Asking "where is your license" will elicit an answer ("in my pocket" or "in my car") and the officer will then know what to expect when he says "get it out and give it to me". It really isn't rocket science.

I'm one of those who posted that, on the rare occasion where I have to interact with the police, I say exactly what I am about to do ("I need to get my registration from the glove box"), wait for the OK (or ask "Will that be OK?"), then move slowly while making sure the officer has a clear view of what I am doing. I am doing this because I do not trust the judgement of the officer, and want to do anything I can to minimize any chance of misunderstanding. I've also found that putting the officer at ease seems to improve the chance I'll get off with a warning to "slow down" rather than a ticket.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[cvfd1399 0]

I was just asking, the consensus here is yes. Obviously this cop diddnt and people here are bashing him, his training etc., cops are human this shit is gonna happen. Compensate the family, fire the cop, but jail time is overboard in this case IMO.

[lawrocket 3]

[Reply] It's just that he made a mistake, he diddnt premeditate a murder, but people here put out a vibe that spews hate for the cop and can't wait to see him put in jail. They can't fathom a human making a mistake even if they are paid to do it.

[champu 1]

cvfd1399

I was just asking, the consensus here is yes. Obviously this cop diddnt and people here are bashing him, his training etc., cops are human this shit is gonna happen. Compensate the family, fire the cop, but jail time is overboard in this case IMO.

I don't fault police for making split-second decisions incorrectly. Here have been my thoughts on a few events over the last year. Hopefully its clear my stance on the issue is a little more nuanced than "bashing cops."

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4518979#4518979
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4553786#4553786
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4572927#4572927
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4671683#4671683

[cvfd1399 0]

Yes I am sorry I am being general and not entirely focusing on you your right. And to the person who said that I think it's justified your wrong, and I've said that already.

[billvon 2,990]

>Say your best instructor at your dropzone panicked on landing for whatever
>reason, and turned into someone and killed them, would you have such a hard on
>for them getting 20 years in jail, and ruining their lives.

Depends on what they did. Did they panic and unhook a tandem student at 1000 feet* because they were afraid of them? Then yes, they should probably spend some time in jail - because they deliberately killed that student, a student who put their trust in him. If you prove it was really blind panic you could probably get it reduced to manslaughter, but no sane DZO would ever have him teaching students again. Even if that "ruins his life." The tandem student's life was more ruined.

(* - next to impossible by the way; we've tried it.)

[cvfd1399 0]

That makes no sense. Were talking about an innocent mistake, and your bring in deliberate premeditated acts.

[billvon 2,990]

>Were talking about an innocent mistake, and your bring in deliberate premeditated acts.

No I'm not. I am talking about someone panicking and taking an action that killed someone. In my example it was unhooking a tandem. In the cop case it was the cop getting out of his car, drawing his gun and firing at an unarmed man who was doing as he was told.

Neither of those were accidents. Both were deliberate acts. They may have been caused by panic. Maybe the cop thought the man was going for a gun. Maybe the tandem master thought the student meant to try to kill him when he landed. (Or as you said, "for whatever reason.") Neither is justified.

[kallend 2,026]

More police idiocy (at least they didn't shoot or tase anyone).

news.kron4.com/news/woman-busted-for-possession-of-spaghettios-sauce-may-sue/

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[BartsDaddy 7]

kallend

More police idiocy (at least they didn't shoot or tase anyone).

news.kron4.com/news/woman-busted-for-possession-of-spaghettios-sauce-may-sue/

Yep better make sure you do not transport dirty eating utinsials.
How much did it cost that women for the LEO's mistake? How much did it cost the taxpayers to house and feed her thank's to the LEO?
How much is the LEO losing?

Handguns are only used to fight your way to a good rifle

[champu 1]

kallend

More police idiocy (at least they didn't shoot or tase anyone).

news.kron4.com/news/woman-busted-for-possession-of-spaghettios-sauce-may-sue/

I read about that one... Turns out that's a terribly written version of the story.

Try this one: http://www.gainesvilletimes.com/m/section/6/article/104844/

Quote

After missing a pretrial hearing, Huff said she gave Jackson County police a false name, leading to 13 days in jail. Huff was reincarcerated in the Hall County Jail on Aug. 2 for a Superior Court arrest order and could not afford bond, her public defender Chris van Rossem said.

[ryoder 1,590]

Interesting article on PDs unable to get rid of military gear: http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/09/police-departments-struggle-return-pentagon-military-surplus-gear

But some agencies have found the process of getting rid of unwanted military gear next to impossible. Agencies can't return or trade large pieces of tactical equipment without Defense Department approval, and because the Pentagon technically still owns that equipment, they can't sell it.

According to interviews with state officials running point between the Pentagon and police, the Defense Department prefers to leave equipment in circulation whenever possible. "It's a low-cost storage method for them," says Robb Davis, the mayor pro tem of Davis. His town is trying to shake its MRAP. "They're dumping these vehicles on us and saying, 'Hey, these are still ours, but you have to maintain them for us.'"

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[normiss 798]

There's this word local officials need to learn.
"No"

[ryoder 1,590]

Military takes toys away from Joe Arpaio:

http://ktar.com/22/1782270/TANKLESS-JOB

That nimrod should be the poster child for why the program is a bad idea.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[normiss 798]

Brah, it was only 9 weapons!
Hell the feds GAVE away a few more than that.
To drug cartels!
They still have their nukes though....

[ryoder 1,590]

Inventory of Defense Dept toys given away.
Scroll down to bottom of page, select your state, then select the department:

https://www.muckrock.com/news/archives/2014/dec/04/pentagon-finally-details-its-weapons-cops-giveaway/

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[regulator 0]

champu

***They don't have to worry about their copy machine killing them at their job if you have never been an officer or combat veteran you can not imagine.

Take care when dismissing peoples' imaginations.

That said, the repeated comments that people "don't know what it's like" is all the more reason that if compliance in a particular manner is expected (under penalty of deadly force) then it has to be stated as such. Many people here have stated that they articulate actions and move slowly, and that's all well and good, but there's no "citizen academy" that everyone has to go to in order to learn how to not get shot by law enforcement.

You can't say "it should be obvious not to suddenly lunge into the car" and claim "you don't know what we're up against" in the next breath.

In most of these cases btw I don't have a problem with the offending officer merely being fired, I think it's just very difficult for that and only that to actually happen.


Yes there is no 'citizen academy' on how not to get shot. It's called common sense and its not that that damn hard to figure out. Comply and make slow deliberate actions. When I get pulled over I always wait until they are at my window and after I give me DL and chl I state I'm about to reach into my glove box for my insurance card. If you act stupidly in a manner in which the officer feels threatened then you're at a higher risk of being shot. People too stupid to figure this out are usually the ones with bullet wounds.

Citizen academy...that has be by far the most retarded thing you have ever said on these forums.

[kallend 2,026]

regulator

When I get pulled over I always...

That there statement says a whole lot about you.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[wmw999 2,439]

In Texas, handing over your CHL along with your driver's license is a good way to avoid getting a ticket, even when popped for verifiable speeding. My husband had a nice instructional session with a friend at the DZ awhile back on how convenient that is.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[kallend 2,026]

wmw999

In Texas, handing over your CHL along with your driver's license is a good way to avoid getting a ticket, even when popped for verifiable speeding.
Wendy P.

I guess it sucks if you don't have one, then. "What, no CHL - that means TICKET for you!".

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.