"Ten Reasons why People who Support Wind Farms Are Deluded, Criminal or Insane. Which One Are You, Vince Cable?"

[jcd11235 0]

rehmwa

******They are more and more obvious as time goes forward that it's not their real goal - which is just the buy votes and power.

Any actual examples, or just more of your baseless rambling?

lead or end with an insult - do you know any other song than that?

cap and trade
plastic garbage bags
light bulbs
cell phones
corporate subsidies
Halliburten
Solyndra
etc
etc
etc ad nauseum

Listen to any political speech nowadays?

now maybe it's not increasing over time either, I might just be noticing more of it as time goes by

now that's what I call baseless rambling - divert by picking on any or all of them - or skip that cycle and save about 4 pages of thread and I'll just declare you win now if you like. it's easy

None of those are examples of anyone trying to "buy votes."

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[rehmwa 2]

jcd11235

***
cap and trade
plastic garbage bags
light bulbs
cell phones
corporate subsidies
Halliburten
Solyndra

None of those are examples of anyone trying to "buy votes."

useless actions to appease specific demographics....ok

clearly none of them appealed to voters or garnered donations or power....you win - I feel so baseless


The pool break in your icon sucks - you should have re-racked it and had your girlfriend try again. (taking my lead from another thread that seemed to move in a more fun direction)

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[jakee 1,563]

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what you imply "all business will pollute at will vs gov doing the right thing and forcing them to be decent"

I don't imply that and I don't need to. The fact that a significant percentage would is more than enough.

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what my cynical view is saying "some businesses would pollute and should be directly acted against, while some may be just fine vs the government allowing their favored businesses to pollute by passing laws that make people think they are protecting us but really aren't so the politicians get rewarded by their favorites and the deluded voters vote more for them"

OVERSIMPLIFIED - it seems you trust no business and trust the government - while I trust some businesses, not a lot of the other businesses, and the government not at all

The problem is that however you try to present the philosophical position, government intervention has had a dramatic positive effect on the degree to which industry pollutes the environment in a serious, people harming way.

Your 'cynical view' would hold that, for example, the massive improvement in air quality in LA over the last 4 decades is a purely accidental side effect of self serving, vote grabbing, populace fooling, pretend environmental legislation. Which obviously makes no sense.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[billvon 3,073]

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cap and trade
plastic garbage bags
light bulbs
cell phones
corporate subsidies
Halliburten
Solyndra
etc
etc
etc ad nauseum

Some of those are good examples of Hanlon's Law. Many of the above are not examples of evil, scheming people trying to deceive an innocent public and buy votes and power. They are, far more often, the result of well-meaning people who simply don't see the whole picture.

In many cases, of course, the result is the same. The distinction is important, though. We can never "fix" evil, but we can reduce ignorance.

[rehmwa 2]

jakee

Your 'cynical view' would hold that, for example, the massive improvement in air quality in LA over the last 4 decades is a purely accidental side effect of self serving, vote grabbing, populace fooling, pretend environmental legislation.

HEY! you read my position and understood it. THANK YOU.
so cool, I think it's a first.

I have this for you -

(that's semi-sincere, and you verbalized it really well. The reality is to take our exaggerated posts, and step back a half step. Likely a portion of the legislation was sincere, but not all, and even when not sincere even blind (and shiftless evil greedy power grabbing) squirrel finds a nut sometimes)


edit: BTW - that's a pretty decent response, thanks for your position on it

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

billvon

They are, far more often, the result of well-meaning people who simply don't see the whole picture.

that's closer to how I really think

but it's not nearly as fun - especially when it seems some blinders are so blatant as to be mockeries of reality

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[jcd11235 0]

rehmwa

useless actions to appease specific demographics....ok

If, by "certain demographics," you mean living humans and our posterity (at least as far as environmental policies are concerned), then we're agreed.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[jakee 1,563]

Quote

HEY! you read my position and understood it. THANK YOU.
so cool, I think it's a first.

I have this for you - Beer!

(that's semi-sincere, and you verbalized it really well.

Oh thank you master! Can I have another cookie?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[GeorgiaDon 379]

rehmwa

***So just to be clear, is it your argument that businesses should be permitted to pollute at will, and the only recourse affected people should be allowed is to not do business with that company?

yes, exactly, you got me, nicely played

(my reply either way really doesn't matter as this is the tack you will take regardless of my response There was no intent to play you, and your response does matter to me. The reason I still bother with SC is because some people, including you, offer interesting perspectives I don't encounter in my usual ivory tower circle. I realize there isn't a one-size-fits-all flavor of libertarianism, but the notion that the market can solve all problems so there is no need for laws to protect consumers or the general public does seem to crop up frequently (as in Ron Paul's argument about why we don't need the EPA or CDC or FDA, for example). However I was surprised to hear it from you, and thought you might explain the position further.

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the real answer is I didn't state anything about how the businesses should operate relative to gov control - my point is that the gov SHOULD be our guardian against abuse as noted...

I reread your earlier post and see nothing suggesting any role for the government in protecting the public against abuse. What I see is: "Either party in charge could use that excuse to create any level of penal or supportive costing to try and 'level' out the 'fairness'. In no way would it be realistic or driven by real world concerns, only politics."

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...but they don't actually do that in practice. They abuse the system to buy votes, not protect us. So pick the abuse you want to have - you get to choose between what the companies may or may not do (and if they do it it'll be pretty bad) depending on their leadership's morality (not predictable either way) or what the government does as SOP.

This point you did make earlier.

I'm not sure how to disentangle "vote buying" from protecting the public against abuse, in many cases. The air and water are a lot cleaner than they were 40 years ago, and AFAIK that had nothing to do with entire industries deciding to take on the burden of reducing air and water pollution purely out of a sense of good citizenship. I certainly would not vote for a political party whose platform would be to allow industries to pollute with impunity, regardless of the damage or cost to the public; if you choose to regard that as "vote buying" so be it.

From your earlier post:

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For example - if the actual costs of these 'downstream' penalties were about $3 per unit of energy, in reality, environmentalists will claim it's $50 and the world will end. the manufacturers would claim it's under $1 and that the fields will grow roses and golf courses and chipmunks will live healthy fun lives.

I believe virtually all environmental regulations set standards for allowable levels of pollutants, and leave it to industries to find ways to meet those standards. This approach brings to the table classical free market forces: industries seek the most cost effective way to meet the standards. Some might change their manufacturing processes, others might use scrubbers for example. The most efficient solution wins. When the cost of cleaning up your mess is incorporated in the cost of production, and everybody is held to the same standard, market forces will reward the businesses that do the most efficient job. Along the way new businesses are sometimes spawned, for example to manufacture scrubbers or catalytic converters and such. I don't see these outcomes as "anti-free-market".

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...you get to choose between what the companies may or may not do

If accounting for "downstream costs" is completely voluntary, companies that elect to spend money to reduce pollution (or any other downstream cost) will be taking on an expense not taken on by companies that do not account for such costs. They will have to include that expense in the price they charge for their products, which means they will have to charge more than companies who choose to ignore downstream costs. No company will be able to compete for long against companies that can cut their costs by making messes they don't clean up. In the end it's quite predictable what companies "may or may not do", and it has little to do with evil/not evil and everything to do with competitive/not competitive. A regulation (say, a standard for mercury pollution) that applies to everyone equally doesn't intrinsically favor one company over another, it just makes cleanup a cost of doing business and the most efficient company will win.

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But since I've stated that about 20 different ways and you still go after the tangential point I'm not making, this is the last time

Sorry to hear that. As I said, I did read your posts and I didn't see anything about any positive role for the government in anything, not even once much less 20 times.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[rehmwa 2]

jakee

Oh thank you master! Can I have another cookie?

I suspect the website gives you one each time you visit.

it's why I'm here. cookies are tasty

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

GeorgiaDon

As I said, I did read your posts and I didn't see anything about any positive role for the government in anything, not even once much less 20 times.

yeah, you pretty much got it as intended

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[champu 1]

rehmwa

The pool break in your icon sucks - you should have re-racked it and had your girlfriend try again. (taking my lead from another thread that seemed to move in a more fun direction)

...says the guy who has only turned one point in all the years I've seen you post here...

[jcd11235 0]

rehmwa

The pool break in your icon sucks - you should have re-racked it and had your girlfriend try again. (taking my lead from another thread that seemed to move in a more fun direction)

The game is straight pool. It is rarely desirable to break more than a few balls away away from the rack at a time. Even on the break, every shot must be called, so it's better to not have the break. With the break, some players will break two balls away, send them straight to the rails with just enough speed that they rebound back into their original places in the rack.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[champu 1]

jcd11235

***They are more and more obvious as time goes forward that it's not their real goal - which is just the buy votes and power.

Any actual examples, or just more of your baseless rambling?

You can see the foundation of the kind of behavior rehmwa is talking about by looking at a number of billvons posts in this thread. According to polls, wind farms are popular. Cynicism says that's really as far as politicians look. More cynicism says the legislation they pass to support wind farms was written by the legal department at Vestas NA.

[rehmwa 2]

jcd11235

It is rarely desirable to break more than a few balls away away from the rack at a time. Even on the break, every shot must be called, so it's better to not have the break. With the break, some players will break two balls away, send them straight to the rails with just enough speed that they rebound back into their original places in the rack.

Straight pool players like to play spin the bottle with their grandmothers

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

champu

***The pool break in your icon sucks - you should have re-racked it and had your girlfriend try again. (taking my lead from another thread that seemed to move in a more fun direction)

...says the guy who has only turned one point in all the years I've seen you post here...

that's funny - ok - i'll find a freefly or angle pic, or a swooping pic. or maybe even another RW point. Standard Nationals rules right - total points on the first 35 years following exit?

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[jcd11235 0]

champu

You can see the foundation of the kind of behavior rehmwa is talking about by looking at a number of billvons posts in this thread. According to polls, wind farms are popular. Cynicism says that's really as far as politicians look. More cynicism says the legislation they pass to support wind farms was written by the legal department at Vestas NA.

I'm less cynical. I think most politicians, even the ones with whom I disagree, honestly try to, and believe themselves to be, representing their constituents as best they can.

In a representative democracy, the government cannot fail the people unless the people have already failed their government.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[billvon 3,073]

>According to polls, wind farms are popular. Cynicism says that's really as far as
>politicians look.

Or optimism. Politicians are constantly criticized for not listening to "the will of the people." It would be ironic if the new measure of a politician is how effectively he ignores his constituency.

[champu 1]

So... a couple follow-up thoughts...

I'm wary of turning to the court of public opinion to determine the government stance (that is the stance we all get behind with our tax dollars) on long-term and highly technical challenges like evolution of our energy production and infrastructure. Not necessarily because I think people are all morons, but rather because I think chasing popularity ends up over-constraining the problem.

Also, upon re-reading that last post I realized I was missing a detail about why I think politicians only paying attention to popularity is a bad thing. What I meant by that is that if wind farms are popular, cynicism says a politician will look to associate themselves with as many bills with the word "wind farms" in the title as he or she can, because that will get them as many or more votes as, say, assigning staffers to really research the problem and create home-grown legislation.

[champu 1]

rehmwa

that's funny - ok - i'll find a freefly or angle pic, or a swooping pic. or maybe even another RW point. Standard Nationals rules right - total points on the first 35 years following exit?

Anything would be an improvement. As it is when I think rehmwa I just think K... K... K...

[jcd11235 0]

champu

I'm wary of turning to the court of public opinion to determine the government stance (that is the stance we all get behind with our tax dollars) on long-term and highly technical challenges like evolution of our energy production and infrastructure. Not necessarily because I think people are all morons, but rather because I think chasing popularity ends up over-constraining the problem.

I don't think your wariness is unfounded. One only needs to look at how often congresspersons who are, to be generous, ignorant about science find themselves assigned to the House Committee on Science, Space, and Technology. But I think they really believe they're supporting the right positions, fairly representing their constituents.

I have much less respect for the voters who awarded them with their votes. That's the downside to allowing the people to elect their government officials, I suppose.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[billvon 3,073]

>I'm wary of turning to the court of public opinion to determine the government
>stance (that is the stance we all get behind with our tax dollars) on long-term and
>highly technical challenges like evolution of our energy production and
>infrastructure. Not necessarily because I think people are all morons, but rather
>because I think chasing popularity ends up over-constraining the problem.

Agreed. In an ideal republic you elect intelligent leaders, and they make decisions based on their good judgment rather than popular opinion. In many cases those will coincide, but in some cases transient popular passions or political noise is best disregarded in the interest of making better long-term decisions.

Of course that ideal is rarely achieved.

[rehmwa 2]

champu

***that's funny - ok - i'll find a freefly or angle pic, or a swooping pic. or maybe even another RW point. Standard Nationals rules right - total points on the first 35 years following exit?

Anything would be an improvement. As it is when I think rehmwa I just think K... K... K...

sorry - in the tunnel last year we broke the 50 point barrier in a 35 second stretch for F-M-P-O-E (not the first 35 seconds, but in the middle) so there's hope still. I think this is topical as a tunnel could someday be powered by alternate energy sources....

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[kallend 2,106]

rushmc

I lived within one mile of the Prarie Creek Generating station in Cedar Rapids Iowa (for the most part never noticied it

3 miles of Sutherland Staition in Marshalltown Iowa
never noticed that one unless a steam relief blew off

So this is a portrait of you.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[GeorgiaDon 379]

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in the tunnel last year we broke the 50 point barrier in a 35 second stretch for F-M-P-O-E

Hove you posted video of that somewhere? It'd be cool to see.

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I think this is topical as a tunnel could someday be powered by alternate energy sources....

Someone should build a tunnel next to the Capitol building and use the stream of hot air from Congress.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)