What is so evil about requiring id to vote?

[jakee 1,489]

cvfd1399

Ya....My solution is LITERALLY right above you.

That's not a solution, it's a vain wish. You've proposed a desired result, not a mechanism to achieve it.

And in the mean time you still haven't explained why, if there's this huge vulnerability in the system, it isn't being taken advantage of?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[cvfd1399 0]

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I'll put you down as OK with disenfranchising 1,000 people to prevent 1 fraudulent vote.

You have trouble comprehending also?

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I'm 1000% on board with all of that. If you live in America legally I WANT ALL of you to vote. I just want to secure the voting system is all.

My proposal
I am sure if forced to there is a way to ensure every legal American can register to vote, or get an ID without causing them undue hardship.

Would you be ok with requiring ID to vote if the government facilitated resources such as help obtaining birth certificates, transportation, and registration? This program would be audited by public groups such as the fair elections network etc. to ensure it was fair and adequate?

[jakee 1,489]

Quote

Wow insinuate much?

I think you need a dictionary. He didn't insinuate anything, he straight out said it.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[turtlespeed 220]

jakee

***

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I can't remember the last time I needed ID for anything except airports.

Here, they ask you to verify your identity, to see if it matches the name on the credit card you are trying to use.

Again, look up 'chip and pin'. I feel sorry for you guys with your third world banking systems

(And as also stated, people who have CCs are not the people who would be affected.)

Ok - then their welfare card. I'd be willing to bet that a welfare card can be stolen pretty easily. It would seem to be a great way to prevent that item from being used fraudulently with an ID.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[champu 1]

jakee

And in the mean time you still haven't explained why, if there's this huge vulnerability in the system, it isn't being taken advantage of?

To be fair, by the way, there's a bit of an elephant-repellent conundrum there. The number of fraudulent/invalid votes that are successfully cast are pretty hard to estimate without making some assumptions that are moot.

ONCE AGAIN, I'M NOT ADVOCATING FOR VOTER ID REQUIREMENTS

Yes. .

[turtlespeed 220]

kallend

***

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You miss the point. It doesn't matter if anybody else has had to produce an ID for that. The fact remains, people are able to get by without doing so

So how are these highly functional people driving with no ID?

Where does the Constitution limit voting rights to "highly functional people"? I must have missed that part.
AH . . . yes, and now we know where the Democratic Party is based.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[turtlespeed 220]

kallend

***

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TEXAS looked for it. Found it was (15 times) less common than being struck by lightning.

Approx. 1 in 15,000,000 votes is fraudulent.

Ok, so I have got you down for 1. Im ok with federal crimes being committed as long as its not too often.

You're also OK with denying voting rights to thousands of the poor and elderly.

Its funny how you think that the poor and elderly can get out and vote easily, but going to get an ID to vote . . . THAT is damn close to impossible.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[cvfd1399 0]

Can easily get out and vote 4-5 times per year......Cant go to DMV 1 time to get Id, and renew online for the next 8 years....Yea seems legit to me

[turtlespeed 220]

cvfd1399

Can easily get out and vote 4-5 times per year......Cant go to DMV 1 time to get Id, and renew online for the next 8 years....Yea seems legit to me

But its not a constitutional right to use yours or someone elses foodstamp ATM card. Or is it?
Anyway, you can go sit in the welfare office for hours and hours and hours and hours, several times a year, but don't have time or ability to go to the DMV.

The logic just isn't there.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[Andy9o8 2]

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you can go sit in the welfare office

second time in the thread you said that. gosh, we have no idea what you really mean by it.
There's a good pawn.

[Andy9o8 2]

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Cant go to DMV 1 time to get Id,

yes, you just keep repeating that talking point, even though already rebutted..
Good pawn! Good! Here's a biscuit.

[jcd11235 0]

rehmwa

Why on earth would you be happy that your credit card is used and they don't confirm it's your credit card? It's not something I'd brag about.

I'm happy when I don't have to relinquish my card to the clerk, or at least don't lose sight of it when it's in the clerk's possession. To me, that seems the best way to prevent fraudulent use of the card.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[jakee 1,489]

champu

***And in the mean time you still haven't explained why, if there's this huge vulnerability in the system, it isn't being taken advantage of?

To be fair, by the way, there's a bit of an elephant-repellent conundrum there. The number of fraudulent/invalid votes that are successfully cast are pretty hard to estimate without making some assumptions that are moot.

Yes, but (along with Kallend's Texas thing) cvfd has already stated that he thinks that voter fraud isn't currently a problem - even though motive, means and opportunity are all supposedly present.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jakee 1,489]

turtlespeed + cvfd1399

Its funny how you think that the poor and elderly can get out and vote easily, but going to get an ID to vote . . . THAT is damn close to impossible.

Since Texas has already been mentioned a few times; a brief search shows that in Dallas County there are approximately 800 polling stations and approximately 7 DMV licensing offices.

So on average it's about 115 times more difficult* to go to the DMV than it is to vote.


* Disclaimer, not real maths.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[cvfd1399 0]

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* Disclaimer, not real maths.

It should have said not real post...

There is a DMV about every 10 miles spaced apart in the county, and about 2.5 polling places per square mile....Not very far to travel....

[turtlespeed 220]

Andy9o8

Quote

you can go sit in the welfare office

second time in the thread you said that. gosh, we have no idea what you really mean by it.
There's a good pawn.

Its not me that continually says the poor and elderly are the would be victims here.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[Andy9o8 2]

J'Accuse.

[jakee 1,489]

cvfd1399

There is a DMV about every 10 miles spaced apart in the county, and about 2.5 polling places per square mile....Not very far to travel....

And that's a completely urban area.

Now extrapolate to rural country.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[cvfd1399 0]

Don't forget to stop for breaks while moving those goal posts.

[lummy 4]

Dallas county is ~900 sq miles
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dallas_County,_Texas

how can the furthest distance someone would have to travel to a DMV be 10 miles when there are only 7 in the county?

I promise not to TP Davis under canopy.. I promise not to TP Davis under canopy.. eat sushi, get smoochieTTK#1

[rushmc 23]

jakee

***There is a DMV about every 10 miles spaced apart in the county, and about 2.5 polling places per square mile....Not very far to travel....

And that's a completely urban area.

Now extrapolate to rural country.

the poor tend not to live in rural areas as they have no transportaion alvailable to them

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Andy9o8 2]

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the poor tend not to live in rural areas as they have no trasportaion alvailable to them

You sure you don't want to amend that (for substance)?

[rushmc 23]

Andy9o8

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the poor tend not to live in rural areas as they have no trasportaion alvailable to them

You sure you don't want to amend that (for substance)?

Done

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[GeorgiaDon 362]

muff528

******Ooh I know the meaning, what do you expect us to do post every Google result, then have a seperate debate on how much exactly equals a significant ammount?

Usually one offender is enough for you guys to say that's too much, but I guess that only applies to bad cops.

So no evidence then? Thought not.

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http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/news/2014/voter-fraud-investigation.htm

17 (out of >700,000 registered voters in the county are suspected of voting in two different jurisdictions. They have not been charged, indeed the article states: “It is important to note that the individuals have not been accused of a crime and are of diverse ages, genders and political affiliations.” The basis for the suspicion is not given, but is likely just that registered voters in two counties share the same name. If I google my own name I find links to several other people, including a prominent jazz musician and a mayor.

So this link involves a suspicion that has not been substantiated, even to the level of bringing charges, much less a conviction. Hardly "proof" of voter fraud.

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http://dailycaller.com/2014/08/21/investigations-underway-suspected-voter-fraud-in-virginia-and-maryland/

An activist group alleges that there are duplicate voter registrations in two adjacent states (Maryland and Virginia). No proof is offered that anyone voted in two states, no one has been charged, no one has been convicted.

There are a number of totally innocent ways voter registration can be "duplicated". Voters can share the same name. Voters may register in one state, and later move to and register in a different state. There is no legal requirement to "un-register", and districts are supposed to verify their rolls from time to time, for example purging deceased registrants. This is important not only for voting but because voter registration lists form the basis of potential jury pools.

Again, this link describes an allegation (made by an activist group with an interest in finding voter fraud) offered without proof.

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http://www.wsbtv.com/news/news/local/state-launches-fraud-investigation-voter-registrat/nhJxg/

An allegation has been made that a voter registration organization submitted registrations with incomplete, misleading, or false information. The allegations have not been proven, and there is not evidence or even an allegation that a single improper vote was actually cast.

Again, not proof of the existence of voter fraud, much less proof that such fraud occurs in a numbers sufficient to influence elections.

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http://kstp.com/news/stories/S3488477.shtml?cat=1

A politician, during the campaign, made an allegation that his opponent was getting voters to register in a district they didn't live in. The allegations have not been substantiated. No proof of any inappropriate voting has been forthcoming.

Politicians frequently use accusation of inappropriate voter registration to discredit their opponents. Often these accusations single out specific racial or socio-economic groups and are thinly veiled attempts at stirring up us-against-them racial animosities.

No proof of a single improper vote to be found here, either.

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http://www.krgv.com/news/judge-orders-new-election-in-weslaco-city-commission-race/#.U58WvS4LWeY.twitter

A political candidate apparently recruited about 40 out-of-district friends to vote for her using mail-in ballots, or by registering using her home address or the address of her relatives as their own.

The mail-in ballots would not be affected by voter ID laws, as you are not required to mail in your drivers license with your vote. It does seem some people registered using a fraudulent address for their residence, and these might have been caught if they used a driver's license as a photo ID and someone had checked the address on the drivers license against their voter registration address.

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http://www.tauntongazette.com/article/20140610/NEWS/306119992/11158/NEWS

One man was convicted of voting in two presidential elections and a primary in a state he was no longer a resident in.

Photo ID would not have stopped this, as he was registered in both states. The remedy would have to be accurate voter registration lists.

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http://www.tennessean.com/story/news/politics/2014/05/12/election-officials-weigh-double-voting/9013815/

Allegedly, six people double voted, voting once by early ballot and again on election day. Voter ID would not have caught this, as they would not have to show ID for the mail-in early ballot. The problem should have been caught by cross referencing a list of early voters so they would not have been allowed to vote on election day, but the company paid to update the list of early voters failed to do so. This company has screwed up previously: "During the August 2012, the firm's computer systems automatically gave many voters Republican ballots they had not requested".

Interestingly, other voters who should have been allowed to vote were refused.

So there were a few cases of double voting, but nothing that could have been stopped by showing a photo ID on election day.

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http://www.loscerritosnews.net/2014/04/21/complaint-against-robert-garcia-suggests-voter-fraud-in-lb-mayor-campaign/

A political candidate is accused of recruiting 15-20 people to cast fraudulent absentee ballots.

Again we have the issue of absentee ballots, which would not be addressed by voter ID laws.

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http://www.kolotv.com/home/headlines/Woman-Arrested-In-NV-On-Voter-Fraud-256054321.html

An illegal alien created a false identity, obtained a driver's license, registered to vote, and actually voted (allegedly).

So how, exactly, would checking her ID at the ballot box have prevented any of that?

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http://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/politics/iowa-politics/2014/05/08/iowa-secretary-of-state-voter-fraud-report-matt-schultz/8858595/

This is the most interesting of the links.

Of 147 case in which it was alleged that non-citizens had voted, 70 involved people who in fact were US citizens. [note: I have experienced this in my own family; often it happens because DMV does not update it's records when you become a naturalized citizen, and you have to wait until your license is renewed (which may mean several years) before they change your record to "citizen".] 77 cases were suspicious, and charges were brought against 10 people.

68 cases involved felons whose voting rights had not been restored, and 16 were charged. However, 20 whose voting rights had been restored were refused their right to vote at the ballot box.

So in a state in which over a million votes are typically cast, an extensive and expensive investigation revealed 117 suspicious votes (0.012% of the total), resulting in charges being filed against 26 people. On the other hand, quite a number of people were identified who were improperly denied their right to vote.

Some interesting questions are raised. Which is worse: a false vote, or a denied vote? Is a problem that affects about 1/10th of one percent of the vote, and so is unlikely to change the outcome of any election, worth disenfranchising other legitimate voters? Are you willing to sacrifice your vote in order to ensure the votes that are cast are 100% legitimate?

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http://www.wtvy.com/home/headlines/Three-Houston-County-Women-Accused-of-Felony-Voter-Fraud-258675191.html

Three women are accused of making copies of absentee voter documents and using them to submit false absentee ballots. Voter ID laws would not address this issue.

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http://wvxu.org/post/two-more-indicted-vote-fraud-hamilton-county

Eight people have been charged (but not yet convicted) of voter fraud. The alleged fraudulent schemes included voting by absentee ballot and in person, and using a business address to vote in a district that was not the voters residence.

The problems here seem to involve absentee voting (which does not require an Id under any proposed law), and lax enforcement at the voter registration office, allowing someone to register using their business address instead of their residence. Neither problem would be solved with ID laws.

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http://www.northjersey.com/news/arraignment-postponed-for-paterson-councilman-wife-in-election-fraud-indictment-1.1012557

A politician is charged with engineering the submission of 49 false absentee ballots, which contributed in him winning a city council seat.

Apart from the fact that the politician has not been convicted, it seems the evidence for fraud is strong. However, voter photo ID laws would not prevent this, as no proposed law addresses photo IDs for absentee voting.

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http://wiat.com/2014/05/01/alabama-supreme-court-look-voter-fraud-allegations/

A politician who lost an election alleged voter fraud. Their complaint was thrown out by a court, and they have appealed to the state supreme court.

No proof of wrongdoing, just a sore loser politician.

So of all your links, only a couple report proven instances of voter fraud; most are just unproven allegations. In the one serious large scale investigation, less that 0.012% of votes were found to be suspicious, and only 26 people were charged out of a million voters. More people were found to have been illegally denied their right to vote.

Most of the alleged or proven cases involved absentee voting. This problem would not be solved by requiring photo ID at the ballot box. I don't know how it could be solved, without also disenfranchising lots of legitimate absentee voters. This would, of course, include many in the military. I'm sure you would not approve of a "fix" that negated to voting rights of military personnel.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[regulator 0]

jcd11235

***Ok you say its too intrusive to require people to get an ID to vote. Then how do you stop legal Americans from voting dozens of times, prevent illegal immigrants from voting, or verify the integrity of the vote?

Or are you saying that all of the above is ok? "Vote early, vote often" is the course we are going.

Such voter fraud doesn't seem to be an actual problem as much as something to be used for fear mongering.

According only to the democratic demographic.