jcd11235 0 #26 October 17, 2014 champu 600,050 people are killed by lightning strikes and heart disease every year in the US. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that you've added an unjustified increase in precision with that stat! Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
champu 1 #27 October 17, 2014 jcd11235 ***600,050 people are killed by lightning strikes and heart disease every year in the US. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that you've added an unjustified increase in precision with that stat! Yeah that bugged me, but I still think the snide comes through better that way. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #28 October 17, 2014 ibx The headline you criticized stated teens AND children. I was just making the point that nineteen year olds are still teens and should be included in every children AND teens statistic. With the second sentence I was saying there is no clear line between adults and children in the completely dysfunctional US judicial system. Which is fairly irrelevant to the topic. That 85% are fairly clearly on or near the adult side of the line - from my personal experience Germany would sell beer to nearly all of them. If you trust them with alcohol, clearly you view them as having a level of maturity. Note that we do not and have a drinking age of 21. Did you really not understand Champu's heart disease (600k) and lightning strikes (50) remark, or did you choose to ignore it? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
seedy 0 #29 October 17, 2014 "Which is fairly irrelevant to the topic. That 85% are fairly clearly on or near the adult side of the line - from my personal experience Germany would sell beer to nearly all of them. If you trust them with alcohol, clearly you view them as having a level of maturity. Note that we do not and have a drinking age of 21." But we send 18 year olds to war to die, so are you saying we are sending children to war? And I see that in Germany a 17 year old can enlist. I intend to live forever -- so far, so good. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #30 October 17, 2014 kelpdiver*** The headline you criticized stated teens AND children. I was just making the point that nineteen year olds are still teens and should be included in every children AND teens statistic. With the second sentence I was saying there is no clear line between adults and children in the completely dysfunctional US judicial system. Which is fairly irrelevant to the topic. That 85% are fairly clearly on or near the adult side of the line - from my personal experience Germany would sell beer to nearly all of them. If you trust them with alcohol, clearly you view them as having a level of maturity. Note that we do not and have a drinking age of 21. Did you really not understand Champu's heart disease (600k) and lightning strikes (50) remark, or did you choose to ignore it? Rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic has more relevance than disputing where to draw the age line. What is indisputable is that daily gun deaths in the USA exceed the total number of Ebola infections. Yet the media (and especially the right wing media) are stirring up a frenzy of paranoia over ebola but offer hardly a peep over gun deaths.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #31 October 17, 2014 kallend What is indisputable is that daily gun deaths in the USA exceed the total number of Ebola infections. Yet the media (and especially the right wing media) are stirring up a frenzy of paranoia over ebola but offer hardly a peep over gun deaths. True in Africa as well, where malaria and AIDS kill far more people. But "news" by definition is not about the status quo. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #32 October 17, 2014 seedy But we send 18 year olds to war to die, so are you saying we are sending children to war? No, I'm saying that Germany considers 16-20 year olds as more adult than we do. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DooWopper 0 #33 October 17, 2014 kallendWhat is indisputable is that daily gun deaths in the USA exceed the total number of Ebola infections. Yet the media are stirring up a frenzy of paranoia over ebola but offer hardly a peep over gun deaths. The local media reports just about every single gun death. National media reports on ebola because it has the potential to far exceed the number of gun deaths. It's not because of what "is", but rather "what could be". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jimjumper 25 #34 October 17, 2014 You can enlist at 17 in the US with parental permission. I enlisted at 17 and retired at 37. But that's a little off topic. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
seedy 0 #35 October 17, 2014 jimjumper You can enlist at 17 in the US with parental permission. I enlisted at 17 and retired at 37. But that's a little off topic. I knew that, but essentially the parent is allowing the "child" to do what they want to do whereas and 18 year old is allowed to make an "adult" decision. My father-in-law got in at 14 doing WWII. I intend to live forever -- so far, so good. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ibx 2 #36 October 18, 2014 QuoteI knew that, but essentially the parent is allowing the "child" to do what they want to do whereas and 18 year old is allowed to make an "adult" decision. Quote Thats true, just to add to Germany thing. It is very common for people aged 18-21 to be tried according to juvenile law. They are attested a lack of maturity. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ibx 2 #37 October 18, 2014 QuoteDid you really not understand Champu's heart disease (600k) and lightning strikes (50) remark, or did you choose to ignore it? I did, I chose to ignore it because it's simply irrelevant. If lightning strikes and heart disease were remotely related, maybe. Yet firearm deaths are firearm deaths and teens are teens. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites champu 1 #38 October 18, 2014 ibxIf lightning strikes and heart disease were remotely related, maybe. Yet firearm deaths are firearm deaths and teens are teens. Both lighting strikes and heart disease can cause cardiac arrest... So they are remotely related, but that wasn't my point. The "anecdote + any dataset that includes the anecdote = proposed solution that tries to address the anecdote but ignores the dataset" formula is getting really tiring. Firearm deaths, particularly among as wide a group as "children and teens", are not all due to one problem. If someone leaves a loaded gun on their coffee table and five year old little Timmy shoots his sister with it, that's one problem. If 19 year old Steve shoots 17 year old Robert with an illegally purchased gun over a drug sale gone wrong, that's another problem (actually, that's a few problems.) Some places in the US do more or less to address these problems. Some places in the US have already passed legislation to address these problems and still reference the anecdotes to garner support for laws that have nothing to do with them. How ever full of shit and one-tracked anyone thinks the NRA is, know that the Brady campaign is their complement. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #39 October 18, 2014 ibxQuoteDid you really not understand Champu's heart disease (600k) and lightning strikes (50) remark, or did you choose to ignore it? I did, I chose to ignore it because it's simply irrelevant. Not irrelevant, just inconvenient to the deliberate lie that you want to promote. Having a hard time understanding how Germany would treat 20 year olds as immature children, yet give them free access to alcohol at 16. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites christelsabine 1 #40 October 18, 2014 kelpdiver *** Quote Did you really not understand Champu's heart disease (600k) and lightning strikes (50) remark, or did you choose to ignore it? I did, I chose to ignore it because it's simply irrelevant. Not irrelevant, just inconvenient to the deliberate lie that you want to promote. Having a hard time understanding how Germany would treat 20 year olds as immature children, yet give them free access to alcohol at 16. If you really have to compare anything with Germany, get back to topic and: Compare how many kids/teens are beeing killed by guns - in the US - in Germany. The rest ist just plain chatter. If this is too hard for you, just take kids below 15 yrs. dudeist skydiver # 3105 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ibx 2 #41 October 20, 2014 QuoteNot irrelevant, just inconvenient to the deliberate lie that you want to promote. If you think about it for a minute you may realize the utter bullshit of your argument. This is about young people dying due to guns. You want to draw an arbitrary age line where it's all of sudden no longer tragic to die by firearm. So where is the lie by saying 7 children and teens die every day? WHERE IS THE LIE? Are nineteen year olds not teens? Quote Having a hard time understanding how Germany would treat 20 year olds as immature children, yet give them free access to alcohol at 16. Well this would devolve into a discussion about the German judicial system and the philosophy behind it. Let me just say what the fundamental difference between the German and the US system is. In Germany it's about rehabilitation and what is best for society and the individual. It is better for society to try and turn the 20 year in to productive member of said society and better for the individual to get chance to try and redeem his life. There is also a lot critique about to lax juvenile punishment here as well. This is a constant debate. In the US it's about revenge, showing you're tough on crime and about maximizing profits for the correctional facility industry. The individual is irrelevant since an example must be made. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,998 #42 October 20, 2014 >600,050 people are killed by lightning strikes and heart disease every year in the US. That's nothing! 570,001 people are killed by cancer and Ebola every year in the US! And they tell us not to panic over Ebola. Idiots. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,027 #43 October 20, 2014 billvon>600,050 people are killed by lightning strikes and heart disease every year in the US. That's nothing! 570,001 people are killed by cancer and Ebola every year in the US! And they tell us not to panic over Ebola. Idiots. Meh! 2,515,458 deaths from ebola and other causes just last year.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #44 October 20, 2014 ibxQuoteNot irrelevant, just inconvenient to the deliberate lie that you want to promote. If you think about it for a minute you may realize the utter bullshit of your argument. This is about young people dying due to guns. You want to draw an arbitrary age line where it's all of sudden no longer tragic to die by firearm. So where is the lie by saying 7 children and teens die every day? WHERE IS THE LIE? Are nineteen year olds not teens? Just tell us why the title of the piece isn't "6 young adults and 1 children die every day from guns?" That would be much more accurate, but doesn't get the same emotional reaction. (If you want to be extremely accurate and can separate the data, it would become 4 young adults, 2 older teens, and 1 child." That's the lie, and you're repeating it as quickly as you can. Quote Well this would devolve into a discussion about the German judicial system and the philosophy behind it. Let me just say what the fundamental difference between the German and the US system is. In Germany it's about rehabilitation and what is best for society and the individual. It is better for society to try and turn the 20 year in to productive member of said society and better for the individual to get chance to try and redeem his life. There is also a lot critique about to lax juvenile punishment here as well. This is a constant debate. In the US it's about revenge, showing you're tough on crime and about maximizing profits for the correctional facility industry. The individual is irrelevant since an example must be made. No question the US system has a vengeance element. But I asked you specifically about German's free wheeling alcohol strategy, not to rehash your ax about America. If you don't believe teens are mature, then why the fuck are you giving them beer, a substance known world wide to cause problems with judgment? Are 19yo DUIs coddled? Or ones that start beating up minorities outside of a bar? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites christelsabine 1 #45 October 20, 2014 Jeez, you can't get enough, right? Why don't you just open your own thread with your alcohol problem? Back to actual thread: Why are even 9 y/o or younger kids allowed to shoot in the US? I personally would prefer to give my 18 y/o a glass of Schnaps (even no one in our family likes it) and my 16 y/o a glass of beer (no one of my folks likes it) instead of watching them walking around with a loaded weapon or killing the instructor at a shooting range with it. dudeist skydiver # 3105 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,998 #46 October 20, 2014 >Why are even 9 y/o or younger kids allowed to shoot in the US? Cause there's no laws against it. >I personally would prefer to give my 18 y/o a glass of Schnaps (even no one in >our family likes it) and my 16 y/o a glass of beer (no one of my folks likes it) >instead of watching them walking around with a loaded weapon or killing the >instructor at a shooting range with it. And I'd rather have my son go to a range and learn how to safely handle a gun than drink himself to death. (just to make another equally silly comparison) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites champu 1 #47 October 20, 2014 billvon>600,050 people are killed by lightning strikes and heart disease every year in the US. That's nothing! 570,001 people are killed by cancer and Ebola every year in the US! ...every year, for the past year! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #48 October 20, 2014 christelsabineJeez, you can't get enough, right? Why don't you just open your own thread with your alcohol problem? you know it's rude to interrupt in the middle of a conversation. But hey, let's open up a thread about your purported illegal gun purchases in the US too. Otherwise, you're free to participate or not in this one. Quote Why are even 9 y/o or younger kids allowed to shoot in the US? I personally would prefer to give my 18 y/o a glass of Schnaps (even no one in our family likes it) and my 16 y/o a glass of beer (no one of my folks likes it) instead of watching them walking around with a loaded weapon or killing the instructor at a shooting range with it. So those are your A/B choices? You seem a bit confused though - that girl did not kill the instructor with the uzi - that was all his doing. It is quite possible, and millions have done so, to teach a 9yo to shoot without watching them walk around with a loaded weapon. Even you'd be capable of such parenting. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites christelsabine 1 #49 October 20, 2014 Like you said, I'm free to participate or not - my choice, not yours. In our lawfirm, we have a very good, experienced lawyer. He was drinking for years, we found out late. It took more than a year for him to get 'clean', he still is working hard on it and, hey, he still is with us. One of the best. He's been cured and well. With a bullet in his head, he would be dead. The dead instructor killed by that poor little one can't be cured. That's enough of posting time for me in SC. Cya ... dudeist skydiver # 3105 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #50 October 20, 2014 christelsabine In our lawfirm, we have a very good, experienced lawyer. He was drinking for years, we found out late. It took more than a year for him to get 'clean', he still is working hard on it and, hey, he still is with us. One of the best. He's been cured and well. With a bullet in his head, he would be dead. The dead instructor killed by that poor little one can't be cured. And if he had had a few pints and wrapped his car around a post on the autobahn, he wouldn't be curable either. So forgive me if I missed an intelligent argument here. Alcohol causes far more 'accidental' deaths than guns, and if we bring in suicides it still leads. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 2 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. 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ibx 2 #37 October 18, 2014 QuoteDid you really not understand Champu's heart disease (600k) and lightning strikes (50) remark, or did you choose to ignore it? I did, I chose to ignore it because it's simply irrelevant. If lightning strikes and heart disease were remotely related, maybe. Yet firearm deaths are firearm deaths and teens are teens. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
champu 1 #38 October 18, 2014 ibxIf lightning strikes and heart disease were remotely related, maybe. Yet firearm deaths are firearm deaths and teens are teens. Both lighting strikes and heart disease can cause cardiac arrest... So they are remotely related, but that wasn't my point. The "anecdote + any dataset that includes the anecdote = proposed solution that tries to address the anecdote but ignores the dataset" formula is getting really tiring. Firearm deaths, particularly among as wide a group as "children and teens", are not all due to one problem. If someone leaves a loaded gun on their coffee table and five year old little Timmy shoots his sister with it, that's one problem. If 19 year old Steve shoots 17 year old Robert with an illegally purchased gun over a drug sale gone wrong, that's another problem (actually, that's a few problems.) Some places in the US do more or less to address these problems. Some places in the US have already passed legislation to address these problems and still reference the anecdotes to garner support for laws that have nothing to do with them. How ever full of shit and one-tracked anyone thinks the NRA is, know that the Brady campaign is their complement. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #39 October 18, 2014 ibxQuoteDid you really not understand Champu's heart disease (600k) and lightning strikes (50) remark, or did you choose to ignore it? I did, I chose to ignore it because it's simply irrelevant. Not irrelevant, just inconvenient to the deliberate lie that you want to promote. Having a hard time understanding how Germany would treat 20 year olds as immature children, yet give them free access to alcohol at 16. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christelsabine 1 #40 October 18, 2014 kelpdiver *** Quote Did you really not understand Champu's heart disease (600k) and lightning strikes (50) remark, or did you choose to ignore it? I did, I chose to ignore it because it's simply irrelevant. Not irrelevant, just inconvenient to the deliberate lie that you want to promote. Having a hard time understanding how Germany would treat 20 year olds as immature children, yet give them free access to alcohol at 16. If you really have to compare anything with Germany, get back to topic and: Compare how many kids/teens are beeing killed by guns - in the US - in Germany. The rest ist just plain chatter. If this is too hard for you, just take kids below 15 yrs. dudeist skydiver # 3105 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ibx 2 #41 October 20, 2014 QuoteNot irrelevant, just inconvenient to the deliberate lie that you want to promote. If you think about it for a minute you may realize the utter bullshit of your argument. This is about young people dying due to guns. You want to draw an arbitrary age line where it's all of sudden no longer tragic to die by firearm. So where is the lie by saying 7 children and teens die every day? WHERE IS THE LIE? Are nineteen year olds not teens? Quote Having a hard time understanding how Germany would treat 20 year olds as immature children, yet give them free access to alcohol at 16. Well this would devolve into a discussion about the German judicial system and the philosophy behind it. Let me just say what the fundamental difference between the German and the US system is. In Germany it's about rehabilitation and what is best for society and the individual. It is better for society to try and turn the 20 year in to productive member of said society and better for the individual to get chance to try and redeem his life. There is also a lot critique about to lax juvenile punishment here as well. This is a constant debate. In the US it's about revenge, showing you're tough on crime and about maximizing profits for the correctional facility industry. The individual is irrelevant since an example must be made. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,998 #42 October 20, 2014 >600,050 people are killed by lightning strikes and heart disease every year in the US. That's nothing! 570,001 people are killed by cancer and Ebola every year in the US! And they tell us not to panic over Ebola. Idiots. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #43 October 20, 2014 billvon>600,050 people are killed by lightning strikes and heart disease every year in the US. That's nothing! 570,001 people are killed by cancer and Ebola every year in the US! And they tell us not to panic over Ebola. Idiots. Meh! 2,515,458 deaths from ebola and other causes just last year.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #44 October 20, 2014 ibxQuoteNot irrelevant, just inconvenient to the deliberate lie that you want to promote. If you think about it for a minute you may realize the utter bullshit of your argument. This is about young people dying due to guns. You want to draw an arbitrary age line where it's all of sudden no longer tragic to die by firearm. So where is the lie by saying 7 children and teens die every day? WHERE IS THE LIE? Are nineteen year olds not teens? Just tell us why the title of the piece isn't "6 young adults and 1 children die every day from guns?" That would be much more accurate, but doesn't get the same emotional reaction. (If you want to be extremely accurate and can separate the data, it would become 4 young adults, 2 older teens, and 1 child." That's the lie, and you're repeating it as quickly as you can. Quote Well this would devolve into a discussion about the German judicial system and the philosophy behind it. Let me just say what the fundamental difference between the German and the US system is. In Germany it's about rehabilitation and what is best for society and the individual. It is better for society to try and turn the 20 year in to productive member of said society and better for the individual to get chance to try and redeem his life. There is also a lot critique about to lax juvenile punishment here as well. This is a constant debate. In the US it's about revenge, showing you're tough on crime and about maximizing profits for the correctional facility industry. The individual is irrelevant since an example must be made. No question the US system has a vengeance element. But I asked you specifically about German's free wheeling alcohol strategy, not to rehash your ax about America. If you don't believe teens are mature, then why the fuck are you giving them beer, a substance known world wide to cause problems with judgment? Are 19yo DUIs coddled? Or ones that start beating up minorities outside of a bar? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christelsabine 1 #45 October 20, 2014 Jeez, you can't get enough, right? Why don't you just open your own thread with your alcohol problem? Back to actual thread: Why are even 9 y/o or younger kids allowed to shoot in the US? I personally would prefer to give my 18 y/o a glass of Schnaps (even no one in our family likes it) and my 16 y/o a glass of beer (no one of my folks likes it) instead of watching them walking around with a loaded weapon or killing the instructor at a shooting range with it. dudeist skydiver # 3105 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,998 #46 October 20, 2014 >Why are even 9 y/o or younger kids allowed to shoot in the US? Cause there's no laws against it. >I personally would prefer to give my 18 y/o a glass of Schnaps (even no one in >our family likes it) and my 16 y/o a glass of beer (no one of my folks likes it) >instead of watching them walking around with a loaded weapon or killing the >instructor at a shooting range with it. And I'd rather have my son go to a range and learn how to safely handle a gun than drink himself to death. (just to make another equally silly comparison) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
champu 1 #47 October 20, 2014 billvon>600,050 people are killed by lightning strikes and heart disease every year in the US. That's nothing! 570,001 people are killed by cancer and Ebola every year in the US! ...every year, for the past year! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #48 October 20, 2014 christelsabineJeez, you can't get enough, right? Why don't you just open your own thread with your alcohol problem? you know it's rude to interrupt in the middle of a conversation. But hey, let's open up a thread about your purported illegal gun purchases in the US too. Otherwise, you're free to participate or not in this one. Quote Why are even 9 y/o or younger kids allowed to shoot in the US? I personally would prefer to give my 18 y/o a glass of Schnaps (even no one in our family likes it) and my 16 y/o a glass of beer (no one of my folks likes it) instead of watching them walking around with a loaded weapon or killing the instructor at a shooting range with it. So those are your A/B choices? You seem a bit confused though - that girl did not kill the instructor with the uzi - that was all his doing. It is quite possible, and millions have done so, to teach a 9yo to shoot without watching them walk around with a loaded weapon. Even you'd be capable of such parenting. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christelsabine 1 #49 October 20, 2014 Like you said, I'm free to participate or not - my choice, not yours. In our lawfirm, we have a very good, experienced lawyer. He was drinking for years, we found out late. It took more than a year for him to get 'clean', he still is working hard on it and, hey, he still is with us. One of the best. He's been cured and well. With a bullet in his head, he would be dead. The dead instructor killed by that poor little one can't be cured. That's enough of posting time for me in SC. Cya ... dudeist skydiver # 3105 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #50 October 20, 2014 christelsabine In our lawfirm, we have a very good, experienced lawyer. He was drinking for years, we found out late. It took more than a year for him to get 'clean', he still is working hard on it and, hey, he still is with us. One of the best. He's been cured and well. With a bullet in his head, he would be dead. The dead instructor killed by that poor little one can't be cured. And if he had had a few pints and wrapped his car around a post on the autobahn, he wouldn't be curable either. So forgive me if I missed an intelligent argument here. Alcohol causes far more 'accidental' deaths than guns, and if we bring in suicides it still leads. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
