mpohl 1 #26 December 9, 2014 Any concentration camp in Nazi Germany would have been proud of you and your worldview. You could have made memorable contributions... Disgusting! RonD1120I'll probably wait for the 3rd party spins. I believe it is being released now to take the focus off Gruber's Congressional testimony. Secondly, I think it will continue to allege that it is all Bush's fault. And thirdly, water boarding and sleep deprivation IMO is not torture. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RonD1120 62 #27 December 9, 2014 I don't have any personal knowledge of that happening. I suppose it did but none of the warriors I have talked to shared any concern. Maybe they did not want to. Some of the accounts I have read discuss collateral damage but it did not bother me. I believe we should do all we can to protect innocents but after all, it is war. It is not supposed to be fair.Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RonD1120 62 #28 December 9, 2014 I guess you can be thankful that I have no power.Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RonD1120 62 #29 December 9, 2014 Wow, it didn't take long to invoke the Nazi principle. Isn't there a term for that in Internet lore?Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mpohl 1 #30 December 9, 2014 On a different, but related trajectory... I think it is reasonable to classify the US as a fascist state. Arguably the US meets all 14 criteria as set forth by political scientists. Bin Laden WON! Political scientist Dr. Lawrence Britt recently wrote an article about fascism ("Fascism Anyone?," Free Inquiry, Spring 2003, page 20). Studying the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia), and Pinochet (Chile), Dr. Britt found they all had 14 elements in common. He calls these the identifying characteristics of fascism. The excerpt is in accordance with the magazine's policy. The 14 characteristics are: Powerful and Continuing Nationalism Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc. Supremacy of the Military Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized. Rampant Sexism The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Opposition to abortion is high, as is homophobia and anti-gay legislation and national policy. Controlled Mass Media Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common. Obsession with National Security Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses. Religion and Government are Intertwined Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions. Corporate Power is Protected The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite. Labor Power is Suppressed Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed . Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts is openly attacked, and governments often refuse to fund the arts. Obsession with Crime and Punishment Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders. Fraudulent Elections Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RonD1120 62 #31 December 10, 2014 We are doomed. We have gone past the tipping point. Life as we know, or hope for, is sliding rapidly into decadence, corruption and the elimination of the middle class. What to do? What to do?Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grimmie 186 #32 December 10, 2014 Maybe you and Hannity can get waterboarded together. I'll put up $50,000 for each of you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #33 December 10, 2014 >I think it is reasonable to classify the US as a fascist state. George Orwell on calling things fascist: ========== Of all the unanswered questions of our time, perhaps the most important is: ‘What is Fascism?’ One of the social survey organizations in America recently asked this question of a hundred different people, and got answers ranging from ‘pure democracy’ to ‘pure diabolism’. In this country if you ask the average thinking person to define Fascism, he usually answers by pointing to the German and Italian régimes. But this is very unsatisfactory, because even the major Fascist states differ from one another a good deal in structure and ideology. . . . It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else. . . . But Fascism is also a political and economic system. Why, then, cannot we have a clear and generally accepted definition of it? Alas! we shall not get one — not yet, anyway. To say why would take too long, but basically it is because it is impossible to define Fascism satisfactorily without making admissions which neither the Fascists themselves, nor the Conservatives, nor Socialists of any colour, are willing to make. All one can do for the moment is to use the word with a certain amount of circumspection and not, as is usually done, degrade it to the level of a swearword. ============== Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #34 December 10, 2014 >We are doomed. We have gone past the tipping point. Life as we know, or hope >for, is sliding rapidly into decadence, corruption and the elimination of the middle >class. >What to do? What to do? Same thing when exactly the same predictions were made in the early 1920's and the 1960's. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mpohl 1 #35 December 10, 2014 So let's keep hanging those niggers from a tree if they decide to raise their voice. Burning crosses are a plus! billvon Same thing when exactly the same predictions were made in the early 1920's and the 1960's. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RonD1120 62 #36 December 10, 2014 My thoughts exactly, thanks for sharing. The word fascist is meaningless to me.Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RonD1120 62 #37 December 10, 2014 Then we should maintain the status quo.Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RonD1120 62 #38 December 10, 2014 We do it in SERE training. I've never had it done to me but I've thought about trying it to see what it was like.Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnnyMarko 1 #39 December 10, 2014 mpohl So let's keep hanging those niggers from a tree if they decide to raise their voice. Burning crosses are a plus! What is wrong with you? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #40 December 10, 2014 If anyone is currently attempting to defend torture, then they are on the wrong side of humanity. Period.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #41 December 10, 2014 >Then we should maintain the status quo. Given that the "status quo" has included slavery, owning women as property, not allowing blacks to marry whites - I don't think we should. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryoder 1,590 #42 December 10, 2014 Let's hear from a Republican who has firsthand experience with torture, and his opinion on the release of the report: Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wR7qsQDWVPU Transscript: http://www.mccain.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/press-releases?ID=1a15e343-66b0-473f-b0c1-a58f984db996"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #43 December 10, 2014 ryoderLet's hear from a Republican who has firsthand experience with torture, and his opinion on the release of the report: Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wR7qsQDWVPU Transscript: http://www.mccain.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/press-releases?ID=1a15e343-66b0-473f-b0c1-a58f984db996 One of the most reasonable things he's said in over a decade. I liked McCain quite a bit and might have even voted for him had he not picked Palin as a running mate.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryoder 1,590 #44 December 10, 2014 quade One of the most reasonable things he's said in over a decade. I liked McCain quite a bit and might have even voted for him had he not picked Palin as a running mate. Yes, I liked him for years, and hoped he would run for POTUS one day. Then the time came, and he totally changed his tune and tried to convince us he would be Dubya 2.0. So I believed him and didn't vote for him."There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #45 December 11, 2014 quadeIf anyone is currently attempting to defend torture, then they are on the wrong side of humanity. Period. Define torture"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RonD1120 62 #46 December 11, 2014 You are being anachronistic. My OP was present centered and you responded with reference to 1920 and 1960. Now you are even going back further, into the 19th century.Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryoder 1,590 #47 December 11, 2014 rushmc***If anyone is currently attempting to defend torture, then they are on the wrong side of humanity. Period. Define torture For the purposes of this Convention, torture means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions. Source: http://www.hrweb.org/legal/cat.html"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RonD1120 62 #48 December 11, 2014 If if didn't/doesn't work, why did/do we use it? When lives are at stake, why should we be polite? What is a polite war? Do the survivors/relatives of those killed on 9/11 have tortured memories?Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #49 December 11, 2014 >If if didn't/doesn't work, why did/do we use it? Because some people are idiots, and let their emotions rule them. They are hurting, and they want to hurt some people back. >When lives are at stake, why should we be polite? We shouldn't be. We should do what works, and treat others how we wish to be treated. Torture is neither. >Do the survivors/relatives of those killed on 9/11 have tortured memories? Probably. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #50 December 11, 2014 ryoder******If anyone is currently attempting to defend torture, then they are on the wrong side of humanity. Period. Define torture For the purposes of this Convention, torture means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions. Source: http://www.hrweb.org/legal/cat.html Cool so waterboarding is not included"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
