Police involved shootings - numbers

[skycop 0]

I don't
Without knowing the circumstances, I don't pass judgement based on media accounts.
I'd do the same for you.

"Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

[normiss 803]

I'm curious to see how they will justify a shooting in a couple's home around 4am.

[skycop 0]

Good question,
My experience would say something is up.........
We'll see.

I've been to a couple "accidental" shootings, the story either holds up or it doesn't.

"Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

[tkhayes 348]

Quote

Gun ownership is increasing at a fast rate
Yet gun violence is going down per the FBI crime reports

It is going down, however that is only compared to past rates in the USA. It is still extreme compared to most other civilized countries.

They also tweak the definition of violent crime rates over time, so you can always pick and choose the data to suit your argument.

fact as well that the USA has a far higher gun violence rate that other civilized countries. also true. Part of that problem is likely the 300M guns that are readily available to most people with hardly any oversight.

Fact is that countries with far less guns have far less gun violence.

No guns would mean no gun violence. not really a goal or objective, but certainly a valid ideology.

The USA leads the civilized world in guns and gun violence. And Americans are OK with that it would seem. Until they get tired of it, nothing will change and it will take Constitutional changes for anything to change.

The gun lobby is not interested in even common sense legislation that might encourage even the slightest bit of responsible gun ownership. they say they do and they say they are, but the fact is they are not - objecting to and blocking pretty much anything and everything regardless of how common sense it might be.

And Americans are OK with seeing each other get killed on a regular basis for relatively minor things, deeming them an 'imminent threat' to their life and/or property which also demonstrates a large part of the problem - the value Americans put on American lives.....sweet fuck all.

[airdvr 210]

tkhayes

Quote

Gun ownership is increasing at a fast rate
Yet gun violence is going down per the FBI crime reports

It is going down, however that is only compared to past rates in the USA. It is still extreme compared to most other civilized countries.

They also tweak the definition of violent crime rates over time, so you can always pick and choose the data to suit your argument.

fact as well that the USA has a far higher gun violence rate that other civilized countries. also true. Part of that problem is likely the 300M guns that are readily available to most people with hardly any oversight.

Fact is that countries with far less guns have far less gun violence.

No guns would mean no gun violence. not really a goal or objective, but certainly a valid ideology.

The USA leads the civilized world in guns and gun violence. And Americans are OK with that it would seem. Until they get tired of it, nothing will change and it will take Constitutional changes for anything to change.

The gun lobby is not interested in even common sense legislation that might encourage even the slightest bit of responsible gun ownership. they say they do and they say they are, but the fact is they are not - objecting to and blocking pretty much anything and everything regardless of how common sense it might be.

And Americans are OK with seeing each other get killed on a regular basis for relatively minor things, deeming them an 'imminent threat' to their life and/or property which also demonstrates a large part of the problem - the value Americans put on American lives.....sweet fuck all.

How do you suppose we get rid of all those guns? You won't be able to take them from law abiding citizens.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[mistercwood 287]

tkhayes

And Americans are OK with seeing each other get killed on a regular basis for relatively minor things, deeming them an 'imminent threat' to their life and/or property which also demonstrates a large part of the problem - the value Americans put on American lives.....sweet fuck all.

Bingo. When I say that "culture" is one of the key factors in the level of US gun violence, this is what I mean. Your nation has determined repeatedly that it is acceptable to end a fist-fight with a bullet, and so people (sometimes) don't bother finding ways to defuse confrontations - since they're more or less allowed to pop the other guy if things get heated enough.

Guns are a part of your nation, I get that the genie is out of the bottle there. I think it's the cowboy mindset (from some) that can still be addressed at a cultural level. Combine that with stricter storage requirements and penalties and you might see a reduction in pointless deaths. YMMV.

You are playing chicken with a planet - you can't dodge and planets don't blink. Act accordingly.

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

mistercwood

Bingo. When I say that "culture" is one of the key factors in the level of US gun violence, this is what I mean. Your nation has determined repeatedly that it is acceptable to end a fist-fight with a bullet, and so people (sometimes) don't bother finding ways to defuse confrontations - since they're more or less allowed to pop the other guy if things get heated enough.

Guns are a part of your nation, I get that the genie is out of the bottle there. I think it's the cowboy mindset (from some) that can still be addressed at a cultural level. Combine that with stricter storage requirements and penalties and you might see a reduction in pointless deaths. YMMV.

Bolding mine.

That simply isn't true.
Civilians who shoot people get arrested. Period.
The shooter gets arrested, goes to jail, gets a lawyer, makes a statement and gets released.
The prosecutor (or Grand Jury) decides if charges are warranted, and if so it goes to trial. The (now) defendant pays his lawyer a lot more and if he's lucky, gets acquitted.

Until very recently, with the passage of Castle Doctrine & Stand Your Ground laws, the allowable use of deadly force for self defense was very, very limited.

There were states where the law very clearly said that retreat had to be made, even in one's own home before using deadly force.
And there were people tried and convicted because they weren't willing to jump out of a second story window (and throw their wife & kids out of it too) instead of shooting an advancing burglar.
There were others where you could only legally use deadly force to defend your immediate family and servants (yes, servants - it was an old law).

There have been some very questionable legal findings in Florida, but for the rest of the country, shooting someone in self defense is a rather difficult thing to do.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[mistercwood 287]

wolfriverjoe

Until very recently, with the passage of Castle Doctrine & Stand Your Ground laws, the allowable use of deadly force for self defense was very, very limited.

There have been some very questionable legal findings in Florida, but for the rest of the country, shooting someone in self defense is a rather difficult thing to do.

I do stand corrected, I'll admit I was probably a bit broad with my statement. I'd say this likely stemmed from the higher visibility in recent years of cases citing the SYG and CD laws you list. It's easy to forget how much legal variation you guys have from state to state when they're so numerous and tiny...

I guess an extension of what I was referring to with culture would still apply though, in that in the states that have these laws there was sufficient support to have them pushed through. I agree with you that several court tests of these laws have had questionable results, but now those results are precedent...

You are playing chicken with a planet - you can't dodge and planets don't blink. Act accordingly.

[tkhayes 348]

Quote

How do you suppose we get rid of all those guns? You won't be able to take them from law abiding citizens.

I made no such proposal.

[tkhayes 348]

Quote

Civilians who shoot people get arrested. Period.
The shooter gets arrested, goes to jail, gets a lawyer, makes a statement and gets released.
The prosecutor (or Grand Jury) decides if charges are warranted, and if so it goes to trial. The (now) defendant pays his lawyer a lot more and if he's lucky, gets acquitted.

yes, but the senseless death has already happened at that point, which was a large part of the former point. The fist fight (or whatever) ended with someone popping someone else with a gun for example.

people are still dead. the death did not actually need to occur, nor was the 'incident' worthy of death as an outcome. you are simply reinforcing what he said, that American lives are not worth that much and for that matter lives of non-Americans are worth slightly less IMO.

[RMK 3]

The rest of the western world knows that intelligent Americans would like to see some change regarding guns in the US. However, we also, know it will take some time given what you’re working against.

One example: we invented the Grand Jury, but saw it didn’t work and disbanded the concept in 1933:

http://mic.com/articles/105964/england-has-avoided-eric-garners-and-michael-browns-by-doing-what-the-u-s-won-t?utm_source=huffpost&utm_medium=social

We also ended slavery in 1833; US didn’t come around to the idea until 1865 (which even then required an “ass-kickin” from the north).

On the other hand guns are so are so cool;

http://awkwardfamilyphotos.com/tag/guns/

"Pain is the best instructor, but no one wants to attend his classes"

[lawrocket 3]

skycop

You do not know the circumstances, basing judgement on a media story............what a surprise.

Circumstance: husband shoots wife in pre-dawn hours. Says it was an accident. Police place man under arrest for suspicion of attempted murder at most, at least negligent discharge of a firearm causing great bodily injury. He can stick around in jail, be arraigned in a couple days. That kinda thing. Like everybody does.

Oh. It's a cop? A police chief? Well, let's review to see what we can charge him with later. Meanwhile, people are commenting about a 2-year-old who shot his mom.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[normiss 803]

Cops always get preferential treatment with the "shoot somebody,go on vacation" policies.
Preferential treatment send the wrong message IMO.

[turtlespeed 221]

RMK

The rest of the western world knows that intelligent Americans would like to see some change regarding guns in the US. However, we also, know it will take some time given what you’re working against.

One example: we invented the Grand Jury, but saw it didn’t work and disbanded the concept in 1933:

http://mic.com/articles/105964/england-has-avoided-eric-garners-and-michael-browns-by-doing-what-the-u-s-won-t?utm_source=huffpost&utm_medium=social

We also ended slavery in 1833; US didn’t come around to the idea until 1865 (which even then required an “ass-kickin” from the north).

On the other hand guns are so are so cool;

http://awkwardfamilyphotos.com/tag/guns/

If you truly believe that Slavery was all the Civil War was about, or even the main driving issue . . . you should maybe go back and read some.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[skycop 0]

Circumstance: husband shoots wife in pre-dawn hours.

Quote

Says it was an accident. Police place man under arrest for suspicion of attempted murder at most, at least negligent discharge of a firearm causing great bodily injury. He can stick around in jail, be arraigned in a couple days. That kinda thing. Like everybody does.

I know it's fun to comment on the internet, but I've actually been to accidental shootings. Someone doesn't automatically go to jail if the circumstances could dictate otherwise.
Neither of us know what happened, the cops may not either. But then again, I guess he should get arrested because he's a cop in your mind.
Keep pounding on your keyboard internet warrior.

"Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

[billvon 2,998]

>Civilians who shoot people get arrested. Period.

No, often they don't. Zimmerman was a good example. He wasn't arrested for shooting an unarmed teenager because he "felt threatened." His case wasn't even considered for trial until there was a lot of public stink raised about it.

>The shooter gets arrested, goes to jail, gets a lawyer, makes a statement and gets released.

Again, no, see above for an example. Want a more recent one? Dec 22 2014:

"Oklahoma City police responded Saturday afternoon to a call that a homeowner had shot a possible burglar who had entered his residence in northwest Oklahoma City, police reported. The homeowner was not arrested, police reported."

>There have been some very questionable legal findings in Florida, but for the rest of the
>country, shooting someone in self defense is a rather difficult thing to do.

But getting more acceptable all the time.

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

Perhaps I should have said "used to get arrested." Ask 'Twardo about that one. He posted the story a while back.

Castle Doctrine laws gave the occupants of a home freer reign by granting the assumption that someone who enters an occupied dwelling by force is intending to hurt or kill the occupants. It also removes the requirement to retreat in one's own home.

If it happens out in public, the outcome is often different.
Zimmerman is a different case because of the odd Florida court rulings on SYG.
In many (most?) other places, he would have most likely been convicted of voluntary manslaughter.
He almost certainly would have been in Wisconsin (the state I'm most knowledgeable about when it comes to legal issues like this).

AggieDave pointed out that a "concealed carry shooting" that comes back "no bill" from the Grand Jury (chooses not to indict) usually costs the shooter around $50k (yes, fifty thousand dollars).

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[kallend 2,027]

melch

Quote

Regarding pay and job security, for a role which generally requires no formal education, they are surprising well paid. Google what a New York or Chicago policeman is paid in salary and pension. In your standard issue small hick town , they can be among the top earners.

You are forgetting to adjust for Cost of Living in the respective areas. NYPD pay/incentives may look good compared to average earnings of BFE NC, MO, or other rural areas but compared to average cost of livings of NY it is not that much.

***No formal education??? That explains a lot!

Where I live, it needs (after good school graduation, depending on scheduled career in police department): 3 yrs of dual studies (including practice time), ending with a BoA. After that, starting with 4 yrs of 'basic time (f.e. readiness for service)'.

What are prerequisites for them US cops? (OK, I'll google) ...

The Polizei can also administer brutal beatdowns with little or no provocation on the spot without much retribution (from my personal and limited experiences). I love watching a Turkish guy get mouthy with the Polizei just to see how fast the night sticks come out. Clearly education is not as big of an impact as you would imply.

I don't know why this is "in reply to" me, since I didn't write any of that.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,027]

turtlespeed

***The rest of the western world knows that intelligent Americans would like to see some change regarding guns in the US. However, we also, know it will take some time given what you’re working against.

One example: we invented the Grand Jury, but saw it didn’t work and disbanded the concept in 1933:

http://mic.com/articles/105964/england-has-avoided-eric-garners-and-michael-browns-by-doing-what-the-u-s-won-t?utm_source=huffpost&utm_medium=social

We also ended slavery in 1833; US didn’t come around to the idea until 1865 (which even then required an “ass-kickin” from the north).

On the other hand guns are so are so cool;

http://awkwardfamilyphotos.com/tag/guns/

If you truly believe that Slavery was all the Civil War was about, or even the main driving issue . . . you should maybe go back and read some.

He didn't claim that it was.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[normiss 803]

Florida extended the castle doctrine to include public places.
While the intent was to prevent the requirement of "running for your life", I'm not sure it's being used that way.
It was an effort to allow us to defend ourselves from criminals.
Anywhere you may be when attacked or threatened.
Seems to have worked well for Mr. Zimmerman.

[normiss 803]

Shot her while sleeping.

Must be a dangerous bed.

Sounds justified.

Next!

[turtlespeed 221]

normiss

Shot her while sleeping.

Must be a dangerous bed.

Sounds justified.

Next!

Maybe She should have listened.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[GD64 1]

weaver or isosceles?

[BillyVance 34]

kallend

******The rest of the western world knows that intelligent Americans would like to see some change regarding guns in the US. However, we also, know it will take some time given what you’re working against.

One example: we invented the Grand Jury, but saw it didn’t work and disbanded the concept in 1933:

http://mic.com/articles/105964/england-has-avoided-eric-garners-and-michael-browns-by-doing-what-the-u-s-won-t?utm_source=huffpost&utm_medium=social

We also ended slavery in 1833; US didn’t come around to the idea until 1865 (which even then required an “ass-kickin” from the north).

On the other hand guns are so are so cool;

http://awkwardfamilyphotos.com/tag/guns/

If you truly believe that Slavery was all the Civil War was about, or even the main driving issue . . . you should maybe go back and read some.

He didn't claim that it was.

He implied it. See bold and read it again.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[normiss 803]

Weaver.
Possibly tactical.

Depends on where the pillows and the gun are I think.

And the ambien.