Toddler accidentally shoots and kills his mother in Idaho Wal-Mart

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

kallend

So you do consider the two problems to be mutually exclusive. I don't. I think each can be and needs to be addressed. We have made great strides in addressing drunk driving but folks like you strongly resist any attempts to address gun violence.

That's not true Professor.
"Folks like us" strongly resist any attempt to create laws that will negatively affect legal ownership while failing to reduce crime.

Who strongly supported (may have even started) the "Three Strikes" laws? (Flawed idea, but good intentions)
Who is in favor of strongly enforcing existing laws about felons in possession of guns?
Who is strongly in favor of preventing plea bargains that take the "possession of a firearm" charges out of the final deal? (makes sure that the "possession of a gun in commission of a crime goes on the conviction record)

Hint: It isn't the Bloomberg group or the Brady group.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[champu 1]

SkyDekker

Quote

Stronger selection and observation of CCH instructors, and classes. More child and gun safety awareness. Maybe show a video of a .45 hitting a watermelon in class, and follow up with if you do not properly respect firearms, and lock them up from children that are too young to teach the topic of firearm safety this could happen to you or them. Those that are older need to be exposed to the topic, and how to deal with those found at a friends home, the street etc. Do not touch, what to do if your friend has one, what to do/not to do if your suddenly handed one.

I don't disagree. I have previously stated that I believe training should be required as part of gun ownership and definitely as part of a concealed (or open) carry.

Editted to add: The gun lobby is generally not in favour of any of this though. It makes it a bit more difficult to acquire guns, which is something they could never support.

A smart gun for instance could have made a difference in this situation. Smart guns tend to be actively resisted.

Having a written test you have to pass (with a freely available/downloadable study guide) along with a practical demonstration that shows you can safely handle the firearm (load, unload, field strip), and making both of those things available at any firearm dealer at the time of purchase is workable and, imo, reasonable for buying a firearm. If this were rolled into a card along with having passed a background check then this would make it easier to ensure all private sales recipients were good to go. I'm skeptical of any mandatory in-classroom training for simply purchasing a firearm.

I agree with Anvil that CCW/LTC courses are only going to be as good as the instructors. I haven't taken one but I've heard in some places they might need more balance towards safety logistics (including retention against curious kids) and not just the "how not to break the law while carrying" side of things.

I also wouldn't have a problem skipping the watermelon video and just go straight to real aftermath photos like some drivers education courses.

It's frankly hard to discuss smart guns and the role they might play in an alternate universe where legislators don't try to mandate them. It says a lot about the people who hold the pens on behalf of those wanting stronger gun control that they pass legislation to mandate things like smart guns and microstamping before they even exist. On its face though, sure, it may have helped in the incident that started this thread.

[skypuppy 1]

SkyDekker

Quote

Stronger selection and observation of CCH instructors, and classes. More child and gun safety awareness. Maybe show a video of a .45 hitting a watermelon in class, and follow up with if you do not properly respect firearms, and lock them up from children that are too young to teach the topic of firearm safety this could happen to you or them. Those that are older need to be exposed to the topic, and how to deal with those found at a friends home, the street etc. Do not touch, what to do if your friend has one, what to do/not to do if your suddenly handed one.

I don't disagree. I have previously stated that I believe training should be required as part of gun ownership and definitely as part of a concealed (or open) carry.

Editted to add: The gun lobby is generally not in favour of any of this though. It makes it a bit more difficult to acquire guns, which is something they could never support.

A smart gun for instance could have made a difference in this situation. Smart guns tend to be actively resisted.

the gun lobby is indeed very in favor of training. they're just not in favor of using a specific very over-priced course as a way of reducing the number of people allowed to carry, for one. And not in favor of requiring training courses to get a licence and then not making available a curriculum or qualified trainers in geographically convenient settings, again being used as a way to prevent people from acquiring mandated training and therefore preventing them from being able to purchase guns, etc...

In other words, pretending they allow people to get permits, but in effect, never giving any out, because they don't want to. Sort of like the elusive permit for back-country parachuting you can apply for at yosemite...

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[D22369 0]

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More child and gun safety awareness. Maybe show a video of a .45 hitting a watermelon in class

This works, and it works well - before I moved to Portland my girlfriend was in Yakima for the weekend with her three boys - age 5, 7, and 9 who's only experience with anything firearm related was video games.

we went to the range with two .22 rifles, one bolt action, one semi-auto for the kids to use, one shooter at a time with the others behind the firing line with their mother keeping watch on them - but even though I stressed the importance of safety many many times I still had to control the barrel of the gun twice as Brad and Andy (the two oldest) both tried to turn around and say something to their mom -

I don't remember the video game they liked to play, it was a 1st person shooter but in it the player had to shoot the bad guys many times to make them stay down.

They were kids... they didn't think they were that dangerous because all their experience with them was that video game - and their comments proved how non threatening they were to the kids... we were just putting holes in paper... not very intimidating and a poor demonstration of what they can do to a person...

end of the day I took out a water filled one gallon milk jug five meters and loaded my .45 with hollow points.
I got the kids all together and simply said:

guys... this isn't a video game, these are not toys, we can come to the range and have fun but if you ever find a weapon, and play with it, and accidentally shoot your brother/mom/me/ or a friend with it in the chest they wont be around anymore - this is what happens in the real world.

when the milk jug disintegrated all three kids mouths were hanging open in shock - I admit I fudged a bit... ok a lot - we know a persons torso doesn't explode like that but...I knew I would need this demonstration.

I got my point across.

Roy

They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

[Anvilbrother 0]

+1000 to you sir! Nothing like actually seeing the damage to make someone respect something. Future swoopers should be forced to watch a hour of swoopers making divots, and bloody femur surgeries.

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[turtlespeed 220]

SkyDekker

Quote

I don't disagree. I have previously stated that I believe training should be required as part of gun ownership and definitely as part of a concealed (or open) carry.

Done

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[normiss 798]

But what about the children???

[SkyDekker 1,465]

Quote

Its because the idea of having to have a watch on for your gun to work does not work in a real world situation where life and death matter.

In this situation yes it would have worked, maybe. Whats the required proximity of the watch to the gun? If mom wasnt paying attention and had her watch hand on the buggy handle and that was close enough it wouldnt have mattered. In a cop situation, how tough are these watches? Ever been in a on the ground rolling around fight with another man? Clothes get ripped, watches get torn off. Then what? Its not the NRA its the people that realize this way to go about it is bullshit. I would rather see an implanted RFID into both hands that would operate the gun, but implanted RFID into humans has been shown to cause cancer and growths, so good luck with that. Then what fingerprints? Thats gonna work real well with gloves, or covered in dust and mud.

The watch thing would be great for casual sport guns, but not real life personal defense weapons.

Sure they have their draw backs, but the opposition in the US is so rabid and fierce that dealers who had announced they would carry them received death threats.

All I am saying is allow them on to the market so people can decide for themselves. Some parents with small children may decide that the increased risk of failure when needed is worth the decrease in risk their kids use them by accident.

Right now smart guns are being actively banned from the market.

[kallend 2,026]

Anvilbrother

+1000 to you sir! Nothing like actually seeing the damage to make someone respect something. Future swoopers should be forced to watch a hour of swoopers making divots, and bloody femur surgeries.

A prominent crime novel author was interviewed on NPR yesterday. At one point in the interview he said he saw someone shot in the face when he was a child, and decided that he didn't ever want to own a gun after that.

When I had about 50 jumps I saw a guy femur in (compound fracture with arterial bleeding) about 20ft from me. Made up my mind about swooping.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[mpohl 1]

Here we go again...
MAN, these American toddlers are really a piece of work!

"(CNN)A 3-year-old boy shot his father and pregnant mother over the weekend inside a hotel room in Albuquerque, New Mexico.

Police say the boy removed a handgun from his mother's purse Saturday and fired one shot, striking his father in the lower backside.

The bullet apparently exited through the father's hip and hit the mother in the right shoulder. She is eight months pregnant, said Officer Simon Drobik of the Albuquerque Police Department.

The father was treated and released from the hospital while the mother was hospitalized in stable condition. The condition of her unborn child is unknown.

The boy and his 2-year-old sister, who was also in the hotel room, are under the care of the Children's Youth and Families department. They were not injured in the incident.

Drobik says the case has been sent to Albuquerque District Attorney's Office, which will determine whether the parents will be charged with criminal negligence.

Police did not identify the family."

[BillyVance 34]

Do not feed the troll, people. He ain't worth it.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[kallend 2,026]

Guns don't kill people, toddlers with guns kill people. Along with 9 year old girls in pink pants.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[champu 1]

Reasonable conclusion: If you have toddlers and/or children around and you want to carry a gun, you need to use a carry method with better weapon retention than carrying it in a purse, fanny pack, etc. And when not carrying it, you need to secure it from unauthorized use.

Unreasonable conclusion #1: Nobody but police or the military should be allowed to own guns. Introducing a gun into your home is rolling dice that are loaded against you and your family.

Unreasonable conclusion #2: What part of "SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED" don't you libtards understand?

[BillyVance 34]

Trust me, you'll find a whole lot more moms killing their kids than you will of kids getting their hands on unsecured guns and shooting their parents with them.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[turtlespeed 220]

BillyVance

Trust me, you'll find a whole lot more moms killing their kids than you will of kids getting their hands on unsecured guns and shooting their parents with them.

Oh, come on. You know that guns are evil and moms are angelic.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[piisfish 140]

BillyVance

Trust me, you'll find a whole lot more moms killing their kids than you will of kids getting their hands on unsecured guns and shooting their parents with them.

it seems that the last weeks, there were more kids shooting people in the U.S. than ISIS beheadings
Don't misunderstand me. I am not against guns. But it seems that many gun owners are just plain irresponsible and should not be allowed to own a gun.

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

piisfish

***Trust me, you'll find a whole lot more moms killing their kids than you will of kids getting their hands on unsecured guns and shooting their parents with them.

it seems that the last weeks, there were more kids shooting people in the U.S. than ISIS beheadings
Don't misunderstand me. I am not against guns. But it seems that many gun owners are just plain irresponsible and should not be allowed to own a gun.

Bolding mine.

There's a fair amount of truth to that.

I volunteer at my local shooting range as a range officer (safety guy). It's my job to keep the idiots from endangering each other (and me). And believe me, I have a hard time believing that some of these guys go out in the woods with a loaded gun and don't end up shooting someone (including themselves). And some do.

But it's a right, not a privilege.

And while I agree in theory that minimal training/qualification for gun owners would be a good idea, I don't support it in practice.

Just like voting. Again, in theory, ensuring that voters are intelligent/educated enough to cast sensible votes sounds like a good idea. But in practice, those in charge use those tests to prevent certain groups from voting.

Guns would almost certainly face similar problems. Impossible standards. Prohibitive costs. All resulting in people being denied their rights.

Look at Chicago. Despite losing the court battle, the city is still trying to enact restrictions that would prevent lawful gun ownership. My personal 'favorite' is having a training requirement, yet prohibiting shooting ranges (where are you supposed to get the training to meet the requirement?). They lost that one in court, but they keep trying. They are currently trying to put ridiculous video requirements on gun stores (after losing a court battle that would have basically prohibited them in the city). They will probably lose that fight too. And they will almost certainly try to put more restrictions in place.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[mpohl 1]

But that would un-American.
Every last imbecile has the right to carry a gun. Constitution, you know.

Fuck the constitution!!!! Or at least the prevailing interpretation of it.

piisfish

***Trust me, you'll find a whole lot more moms killing their kids than you will of kids getting their hands on unsecured guns and shooting their parents with them.

it seems that the last weeks, there were more kids shooting people in the U.S. than ISIS beheadings
Don't misunderstand me. I am not against guns. But it seems that many gun owners are just plain irresponsible and should not be allowed to own a gun.

[mpohl 1]

Old friend.
Why would you consider me a troll?

Just reporting the facts.

BillyVance

Do not feed the troll, people. He ain't worth it.

[Anvilbrother 0]

Quote

Fuck the constitution!!!!

If you don't like it get the fuck out, there are millions begging to take your place.

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[mpohl 1]

As always:

I enjoy your enlightened interpretation of the First Amendment. An outstanding constitutional scholar you are.

Anvilbrother

Quote

Fuck the constitution!!!!

If you don't like it get the fuck out, there are millions begging to take your place.

[BillyVance 34]

mpohl

Fuck the constitution!!!! Or at least the prevailing interpretation of it.

We know you hate the constitution, yet you live here. Don't like the constitution? Do something about it instead of bitching on here which isn't going to accomplish a god damn thing.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[piisfish 140]

Had they had a Kinder egg instead of a gun in their purse, they would most likely not have choked.

Free Kinder Eggs

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[rushmc 23]

mpohl

As always:

I enjoy your enlightened interpretation of the First Amendment. An outstanding constitutional scholar you are.


***

Quote

Fuck the constitution!!!!

If you don't like it get the fuck out, there are millions begging to take your place.

and move quickly so the door does not hit you in the ass on the way out!

Ever read the Federalists Papers?
His interpretation is better than yours it seems.....

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[mpohl 1]

Hilarious.

Friend of mine from NYC just visited Germany for 48 hrs before returning.

We had to buy a carton of eggs (dozen), dump all the natural eggs, just to provide protective coverage for a dozen Kinder Eggs going back.

piisfish

Had they had a Kinder egg instead of a gun in their purse, they would most likely not have choked.

Free Kinder Eggs