BIGUN 1,307 #1 January 16, 2015 OK. I know we had a conversation about it it in another thread the other day, but we had drifted the topic off.... Watch this.. you'll laugh cause you'll know who I am in this and what are your thoughts on the matter? http://digg.com/video/why-tipping-should-be-banned Is it possible to pay a fair wage without tipping?Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #2 January 16, 2015 BIGUNIs it possible to pay a fair wage without tipping? Absolutely. It would require a change in mindset for owners, waiters, and restaurant goers, but it could absolutely be done at ZERO net change to costs for any.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,307 #3 January 16, 2015 I tend to agree, but having not been in the food industry am unsure of the margins. I know its about 100% on alcohol sales alone.Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hjeada 0 #4 January 16, 2015 quade but it could absolutely be done at ZERO net change to costs for any. Please elaborate here, because I think your statement is off...a Zero net change for all would make the assumption that everyone is tipping equally, which, just isn't the case. If you take tips out, one would assume that the wage must go up to keep the waiter/waitress/driver/etc at the same total compensation. If that is true, then the business owner would have to increase their margin in order to pay for the increase in wage for them to stay at zero net change. Now that the price has went up, the consumer will pay more for the good, but be alleviated from tipping, so there is the possibility that the consumer would have a zero net change...but that is making a HUGE assumption...not everyone tips, or tips the same amount. For the sake of argument, let's say the increase in cost for the good is 15%, then a net zero increase would only hold true for consumers that would have tipped 15%, however, it would be a net INCREASE of 15% for the non-tipper, and a net DECREASE of 5% for the consumer that averaged a 20% tip...Dudeist Skydiver #0511 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #5 January 16, 2015 Hjeada*** but it could absolutely be done at ZERO net change to costs for any. Please elaborate here, because I think your statement is off...a Zero net change for all would make the assumption that everyone is tipping equally, which, just isn't the case. No. It doesn't. It makes the assumption that ON AVERAGE there is an amount of cash people are willing to pay for goods and services. It doesn't matter a single bit whether an individual customer tips more or less, in the long run of say, 1,000 customers, it regresses to a mean percentage amount. Post a sign saying tips are forbidden at the restaurant. Add to the price of everything what that mean percentage tip is and pay the waiters more. ZERO net change in amounts. No tipping. Why would this work? Because EVERYONE involved has already determined the amounts and are already agreeing to them. Right now. The customer has a finite amount of money he's willing to spend for the meal (including tip). The waiter is already working for the minimum plus tips. The owner already has to figure in that the waiter and customer are willing to work or pay for what the amounts in question. That said, it would take a change in mindset of all parties involved so nobody felt they were being cheated.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 30 #6 January 16, 2015 QuoteIs it possible to pay a fair wage without tipping? As your video showed, it's already done in several countries.Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grue 1 #7 January 16, 2015 The real interesting point is that some people would end up taking an effective pay cut. I used to make substantially more tips than other delivery guys at work when I worked at a pizza place in college. Why? Couldn't tell you for sure overall, but there were a few specific customers who got to the point of asking for me specifically to deliver to them because they knew I wouldn't take my time, and they'd tip accordingly. Is that unfair? I don't know, but I can tell you that averaging about 15/hr in a small town in Iowa was good damned money for a college kid. On a somewhat related note, I bet generally-considered-attractive women make more money as waitresses than anyone else, all else being equal.cavete terrae. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #8 January 16, 2015 grueOn a somewhat related note, I bet generally-considered-attractive women make more money as waitresses than anyone else, all else being equal. Studies have been done and this is absolutely true. It's not "equal pay for equal work" and it stinks.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hjeada 0 #9 January 16, 2015 quade****** but it could absolutely be done at ZERO net change to costs for any. Please elaborate here, because I think your statement is off...a Zero net change for all would make the assumption that everyone is tipping equally, which, just isn't the case. No. It doesn't. It makes the assumption that ON AVERAGE there is an amount of cash people are willing to pay for goods and services. It doesn't matter a single bit whether an individual customer tips more or less, in the long run of say, 1,000 customers, it regresses to a mean percentage amount. Post a sign saying tips are forbidden at the restaurant. Add to the price of everything what that mean percentage tip is and pay the waiters more. ZERO net change in amounts. No tipping. Why would this work? Because EVERYONE involved has already determined the amounts and are already agreeing to them. Right now. The customer has a finite amount of money he's willing to spend for the meal (including tip). The waiter is already working for the minimum plus tips. The owner already has to figure in that the waiter and customer are willing to work or pay for what the amounts in question. That said, it would take a change in mindset of all parties involved so nobody felt they were being cheated. I find you speak in absolutes a lot...by taking an average, you are not attaining a net zero increase for "any" as you call out...there will be some that pay more in the new paradigm as well as some consumers that would pay less...that is the complete opposite of a zero net change for any...again, say the price for a pizza is $20 now, and on AVERAGE people would tip 15%, thus making the cost $23 for the pie...now you make that the new cost...great! Except the consumer that tips on AVERAGE $5 for that pizza is now encountering a reduction in the price, whereas the cheapskate that never tips, has a $3 increase...therefore you statement about not encountering a net zero for any is incorrect...as there is obviously a net increase for the non-tipper... BTW, taking the average amount people are willing to tip (base price of good + AVERAGE tip = new price) is the same as assuming everyone tips the same...Dudeist Skydiver #0511 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #10 January 16, 2015 HjeadaBTW, taking the average amount people are willing to tip (base price of good + AVERAGE tip = new mean price) is the same as assuming everyone tips the same... Negative. It means that eventually it all averages out. (yes, pun intended.) When I say all I mean the owner, the waiters, the customers (as a collective group, not as individuals). Only the "cheap skates" would lose out. Everybody else is either net neutral or wins.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hjeada 0 #11 January 16, 2015 quade***BTW, taking the average amount people are willing to tip (base price of good + AVERAGE tip = new mean price) is the same as assuming everyone tips the same... Negative. It means that eventually it all averages out. (yes, pun intended.) When I say all I mean the owner, the waiters, the customers (as a collective group, not as individuals). Only the "cheap skates" would lose out. Everybody else is either net neutral or wins. So you agree then that there wouldn't be a net zero increase for everyone then...you say it right there, only the "cheap skates" lose out, the rest either be net neutral or net positive. There very well could be a net zero for the collective group, but that isn't the same as a net zero increase for all...but, sure, as a COLLECTIVE group it is plausible to be net zero.Dudeist Skydiver #0511 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #12 January 16, 2015 Lemme guess, you're the sort of person who advocate FOR putting an extra sheep into the field meant for cow grazing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commonsquade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stayhigh 2 #13 January 16, 2015 Isn't USA only country with tipping system?Bernie Sanders for President 2016 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,990 #14 January 16, 2015 >Studies have been done and this is absolutely true. It's not "equal pay for equal work" >and it stinks. True for actresses, actors, people who do voice for animations, models etc. It's pretty common. I don't think it stinks that much - it's just a fact of life that we've adapted to. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,307 #15 January 16, 2015 Formalized; I believe so. The rest are on a sliding scale of forbidden to appreciated with varying percentages. .Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stayhigh 2 #16 January 16, 2015 But the cops here don't take tips(bribe). Which kinda sucks. Some other countries cops take tips for minor offenses. Like traffic ticket. You tip little less than the ticket and everyone is happy.Bernie Sanders for President 2016 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,307 #17 January 16, 2015 stayhighBut the cops here don't take tips(bribe). Which kinda sucks. Some other countries cops take tips for minor offenses. Like traffic ticket. You tip little less than the ticket and everyone is happy. I'll ask that we don't take this off on a tangent, please.Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #18 January 16, 2015 billvon >Studies have been done and this is absolutely true. It's not "equal pay for equal work" >and it stinks. True for actresses, actors, people who do voice for animations, models etc. It's pretty common. I don't think it stinks that much - it's just a fact of life that we've adapted to. Yes and no. Yes and no. You don't have to tell me about the genetic lottery when it comes to the entertainment industry. I'm fairly aware of that. That said, waiting tables isn't being on the big screen.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stayhigh 2 #19 January 16, 2015 Exact thing happens at the restaurant when you go as a group of 8 or more no? Tips are included? or is that only in California? My friend work as a waitress and she hates when she sees big group. She thinks more/difficult work to cater one ginourmous table for only 15%. Only way to make more money for her at that point is to sell more stuff. "We have fabulous house made Chocolate cake, and....." I think most of them wants to step up to being a bartender, and uses being waiter and waitress as a stepping stone to become a bartender. They make banks in short time frame.Bernie Sanders for President 2016 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,307 #20 January 16, 2015 QuoteMy friend work as a waitress and she hates when she sees big group. She thinks more/difficult work to cater one ginourmous table for only 15%. Only way to make more money for her at that point is to sell more stuff. I don't understand this. If you have one table of ten and the bill is one thousand dollars or you have ten tables of one hundred dollars; the tip "Should" be the same. And, most restaurants have the 15-18% will be added to the bill understanding on groups of 8 or more written on the menu.... So, if one of those ten tables doesn't tip the 15%; she loses money on the ten. If one of the ten tips more; then it'll make up for the shortfall. If she were on a wage; then it wouldn't matter if it were ten tables or a table of ten. She would make the same.Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stayhigh 2 #21 January 16, 2015 She says, the pairs that came out as a date tips the most. They often order more drinks, and tends to tip more. So she rather want to wait on muiltple pair/ 4 people group table vs group of 10, and group of 10 tends to sit there longer than the other smaller group. and then there is racial profiling part..... on which group tips the most and which tips the least. so the people who sits the group(forgot what they were called) tends to send certain groups to certain table, so that senior waiter and waitress gets the better group.Bernie Sanders for President 2016 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skypuppy 1 #22 January 17, 2015 quade***BTW, taking the average amount people are willing to tip (base price of good + AVERAGE tip = new mean price) is the same as assuming everyone tips the same... Negative. It means that eventually it all averages out. (yes, pun intended.) When I say all I mean the owner, the waiters, the customers (as a collective group, not as individuals). Only the "cheap skates" would lose out. Everybody else is either net neutral or wins. quite possibly the 'cheapskates' wouldn't lose out - they might just decide to not go to that particular restaurant anymore. so the restaurant loses sales and ends up cutting its workforce - which isn't zero net either...If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead. Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stumpy 284 #23 January 17, 2015 BIGUN Is it possible to pay a fair wage without tipping? Absolutely. I live somewhere where tipping is not expected. Ban it? No - when I get better than expected service, I tip.Never try to eat more than you can lift Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mccurley 1 #24 January 17, 2015 +1Watch my video Fat Women http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRWkEky8GoI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BornToThrill 0 #25 January 19, 2015 I don't believe at all tipping should be banned. It's effective in many cases. You are essentially paying for customer service wether its good (fair tip) or bad (no or small tip). Would you want to stand in line waiting to pick up your food at a restaurant? If you're going out to eat, its for the experience or else you would order ahead for take-out or just eat at home. If every server, waitress and bartender were paid the same amount why would one strive to provide excellent customer service? They would just do an average job. Are all doctors paid the same? No, some are much more costly because they provide a better or more experienced service. My wife is a waitress/bartender and she has said many people would rather be on tips because she would be getting paid the same as a shitbag who works at the same place if they were on minimum wage. IT IS COMPETITION THAT DRIVES QUALITY! If everyone is on minimum wage and presumably working 40+ hours a week now you have to deal with possible health benefits and employers working things out or not. A lot of things can get jumbled up in this discussion. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
