jgoose71 0 #1 February 4, 2015 For the shooting enthusiast out there, the BATFE is yet again issuing more rules to try to make a law abiding citizen a felon and not even know it. http://www.offthegridnews.com/2014/04/28/how-your-gun-may-be-illegal-and-you-not-know-it/ If this is old news to you guys, please ignore. It's new to me as I am starting my own builds and am learning the rules. A video to show the utter absurdity of this stuff... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrCHkvF_hB0 And from now on, they are no longer AR's. It's a banned term. It's now "Modern Sporting rifle". And we don't shoot, we plink."There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss." Life, the Universe, and Everything Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 810 #2 February 4, 2015 A couple of my buddies have been forced to create some legal trusts and obtain FFL's for the types of AR's they are building. I think the flash suppressors and silencers have something to do with it as well. It's a challenging terrain to navigate lawfully it seems. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wolfriverjoe 1,523 #3 February 4, 2015 Those rules have been in place for a long, long time. Since 1934. They are actually pretty simple. If it can go up to your shoulder, it's a rifle. If it can't, it's a pistol. Smoothbore (shotguns) have no "pistol" provisions (so Mad Max's side-by-side is NOT legal in the US). If it's a rifle, barrel has to be 16" minimum. Shotgun is 18. Minimum length is for stuff that can't be easily taken apart (brazed or silver soldered flash hider or dummy suppressor) There's a minimum overall length too, but I can't remember it off the top of my head. Most places that sell pieces/parts are pretty good about labeling stuff as "Pistol/NFA ONLY" in their ads. Have fun building. ARs are so modular that it's easier than IKEA furniture. But it's not too difficult to make a mistake and get into trouble. Thompson/Center Contenders and Encores are like that too. Modular and switchable enough that getting into trouble isn't too hard. And they are still called "ARs". Just not "assault rifles." The "AR" part stands for "Armalite", not Assault Rifle. "There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jgoose71 0 #4 February 4, 2015 wolfriverjoe If it's a rifle, barrel has to be 16" minimum. Shotgun is 18. Minimum length is for stuff that can't be easily taken apart (brazed or silver soldered flash hider or dummy suppressor) There's a minimum overall length too, but I can't remember it off the top of my head. I'm not seeing anything for overall length. Bull pups are legal if you have the money with out having to do a Trust. 14.5" Barrels are legal as long as you permanently attach a muzzle device that is at least 1.5" long. wolfriverjoe Most places that sell pieces/parts are pretty good about labeling stuff as "Pistol/NFA ONLY" in their ads. Have fun building. ARs are so modular that it's easier than IKEA furniture. But it's not too difficult to make a mistake and get into trouble. Thompson/Center Contenders and Encores are like that too. Modular and switchable enough that getting into trouble isn't too hard. Yes, but I'm still going to vent about how much I hate the BATFE. How much leniency do you think you will get for not paying your $200 tax stamp? Expect your life destroyed over legal definitions of a right that "shall not be infringed." That said, Modern sporting rifles are Barbi's for men. How shall we dress up for this outing? wolfriverjoe And they are still called "ARs". Just not "assault rifles." The "AR" part stands for "Armalite", not Assault Rifle. While you and I know this, the idiot left does not. It's easier to just stick with Modern sporting rifle. Remember the war of words and perception. Just like "Illegal Immigrant" and "Undocumented worker"."There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss." Life, the Universe, and Everything Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Anvilbrother 0 #5 February 4, 2015 It's 18 inch length min for barrels and 26 inches minimum overall for shotguns is what he might have been referring to. Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along, Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
millertime24 8 #6 February 4, 2015 Sbr work-around (for now). http://store.sigsauer.com/sb15-pistol-stabilizing-brace.html Muff #5048 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wolfriverjoe 1,523 #7 February 4, 2015 AnvilbrotherIt's 18 inch length min for barrels and 26 inches minimum overall for shotguns is what he might have been referring to. The 26 minimum overall (couldn't remember the exact length) applies to both rifles and shotguns. And FWIW, a normal pump or auto shotgun with an 18" barrel and nothing more than a pistol grip on the back is still legal. The overall is something like 27" or 28" Mossberg markets one. http://www.mossberg.com/product/shotguns-pump-action-mossberg-500-tactical-500-6-shot-8-shot-500-cruiser-8-shot/50580"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Anvilbrother 0 #8 February 4, 2015 Yea I made my own out of a old rusted shotgun. 18.5 inch double barrel, and 26.5 inch overall at the stock. Added .5 inch to each to avoid stupid jail time due to stupid laws. Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along, Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jgoose71 0 #9 February 4, 2015 wolfriverjoe The 26 minimum overall (couldn't remember the exact length) applies to both rifles and shotguns. Are you sure? I can buy a Tavor for $1800 without doing the NFA Title II tax stamp thing and they are definitely less than 26". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IMI_Tavor_TAR-21"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss." Life, the Universe, and Everything Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wolfriverjoe 1,523 #10 February 4, 2015 jgoose71*** The 26 minimum overall (couldn't remember the exact length) applies to both rifles and shotguns. Are you sure? I can buy a Tavor for $1800 without doing the NFA Title II tax stamp thing and they are definitely less than 26". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IMI_Tavor_TAR-21 Everything I know of says minimum overall length of 26". The Wiki link mentions an 18" barrel to make the minimum OAL. Wiki site on Short Barreleld Rifle says 26 minimum OAL."There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billeisele 130 #11 February 5, 2015 FN PS90 barrel is 16", overall length is 26" 30 round mag the law enforcement and military version is, barrel 10.4" with overall being 19.9" long http://www.fnhusa.com/l/products/carbines/ps90-standard/ Give one city to the thugs so they can all live together. I vote for Chicago where they have strict gun laws. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jtiflyer 0 #12 February 5, 2015 millertime24 Sbr work-around (for now). http://store.sigsauer.com/sb15-pistol-stabilizing-brace.html no longer legal, ATF changed their mind Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Anvilbrother 0 #13 February 5, 2015 Wrong. It was never legal to use as a brace, they just shored up their position. It's still perfectly legal to own and use the sig brace in its intended purpose. Don't shoulder it and your legal. Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along, Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BartsDaddy 7 #14 February 5, 2015 AnvilbrotherWrong. It was never legal to use as a brace, they just shored up their position. It's still perfectly legal to own and use the sig brace in its intended purpose. Don't shoulder it and your legal. Well when I first saw it I said that is an SBR. The person showing it to me assured me it was not. So I researched it and found the DoJ had issued a letter stating it was ok to shoulder a Sig brace. Now they are reversing that decision. Too many advertisements of how this is your way around SBR laws, and YouTube videos of it being used as an SBR. Handguns are only used to fight your way to a good rifle Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
champu 1 #15 February 5, 2015 The idea was that if you installed it with the intention of using it as an arm brace, that meant it was legal. If you then shouldered it, it didn't change the legal status because that would be absurd. What they're more or less saying now (and I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt) is that shouldering it demonstrates that you installed it with the intent of using it as a stock, and it was therefore never legal. I don't really have any desire to build an AR pistol, but I wouldn't bother with one of these even if I did. I have fired one from the shoulder before and it just had a foam cover over the receiver extension, kinda like that material you see on the handles of exercise equipment. That worked just fine. The elephant in the living room is that the way rifles and handguns have evolved over the last several decades has made the 1934 NFA restrictions on SBRs look idiotic. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
millertime24 8 #16 February 5, 2015 Why are SBR's a NFA item anyway? I never really understood this. Muff #5048 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wolfriverjoe 1,523 #17 February 5, 2015 millertime24 Why are SBR's a NFA item anyway? I never really understood this. Same as shotguns. It takes a fairly powerful firearm and makes it concealable. Keep in mind that the 38 Super was considered a very powerful pistol at the time. NFA 1934 was a result of the "gangster era" of Prohibition and the early depression era. (think Al Capone, Dillinger and Bonnie & Clyde). Clyde Barrow had a BAR (yes, he stole it from a National Guard armory) that he cut down and could hide under a long coat. He also had a shotgun (Rem 1100 IIRC) that he cut way down and would wear under a coat. He had it on a short sling around his shoulder and could swing it up to his shoulder and fire very fast. And he'd shoot it from the shoulder so that he'd hit what he was aiming for. The St Valentine's Day massacre in Chicago was one of the triggers for the NFA (kinda like Sandy Hook or similar). The good old "Let's ban them and keep them out of the hands of the criminals" mindset."There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
millertime24 8 #18 February 5, 2015 So what's to stop a criminal from slapping a pistol upper on a rifle lower? You can buy uppers of any variety all day long. The lower is the controlled bit. And how is it that the nfa hasn't been ruled unconstitutional by now?Muff #5048 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wolfriverjoe 1,523 #19 February 5, 2015 millertime24So what's to stop a criminal from slapping a pistol upper on a rifle lower? You can buy uppers of any variety all day long. The lower is the controlled bit. And how is it that the nfa hasn't been ruled unconstitutional by now? Nothing. Same as in the "Assault Weapons Ban" era when you could easily buy uppers with the banned features and stick it on a "post-ban" lower. Just don't get caught at it. And it's illegal to possess a pistol or short-barrelled upper without possessing a pistol or registered SBR lower. Same with full auto parts (bolt carrier, sear, hammer, safety, auto-safety sear, ect.) The Miller decision should have gotten NFA tossed. The lower courts ruled that way, but Miller never showed up when the state appealed it to the Supremes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Miller"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stayhigh 2 #20 February 5, 2015 Nothing stops criminals from anything. Law only applies for law abiding citizens.Bernie Sanders for President 2016 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Anvilbrother 0 #21 February 5, 2015 QuoteAnd it's illegal to possess a pistol or short-barrelled upper without possessing a pistol or registered SBR lower. Same with full auto parts (bolt carrier, sear, hammer, safety, auto-safety sear, ect.) Please do your homework there is lots of wrong with all of that. Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along, Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wolfriverjoe 1,523 #22 February 5, 2015 AnvilbrotherQuoteAnd it's illegal to possess a pistol or short-barrelled upper without possessing a pistol or registered SBR lower. Same with full auto parts (bolt carrier, sear, hammer, safety, auto-safety sear, ect.) Please do your homework there is lots of wrong with all of that. What in particular? It's called "Constructive Possession." I wont' get into an argument whether or not it's right, or constitutional, or yet another case of the BATF overstepping their authority. But getting caught with M-16 parts and an AR, or a short barrelled upper with no registered lower or pistol lower is going to result in some pretty expensive legal problems."There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Anvilbrother 0 #23 February 5, 2015 QuoteAnd it's illegal to possess a pistol or short-barrelled upper without possessing a pistol or registered SBR lower. Your talking about two different things here one is an NFA designated weapon($200 tax stamp) and the other isnt. A pistol upper can go on a pistol or AOW registered receiver, but not a rifle registered receiver. With that said you can have 100 pistol uppers as long as you have 1 Pistol or AOW lower in the area that DOES NOT HAVE A STOCK, your good to go, you have yourself an AR pistol. Constructive possession is brought into play if you have a pistol upper, and nothing but rifle registered receivers, or pistol/AOW receivers with full stocks on the buffer tubes. Then they can get you for SBR constructive possession, but its actually been held up in courts that the constructive possession thing is bullshit. They were once caught trying to CP charge someone over a shoelace saying if they tied the DC with the shoelace then it would be full auto. QuoteSame with full auto parts (bolt carrier, sear, hammer, safety, auto-safety sear, ect.) You can have full auto bolt carriers, one of the semi-auto colt models has always had a full auto bolt carrier since its inception. The NFA act, and the DHS, as well as DEA can all go away as far as im concerned. Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along, Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
millertime24 8 #24 February 5, 2015 Quote The NFA act, and the DHS, as well as DEA can all go away as far as im concerned. +1Muff #5048 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
millertime24 8 #25 February 5, 2015 What if you start with a stripped lower?Muff #5048 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
