billvon 3,008 #26 February 19, 2015 >Hmm...you protest social engineering only when it doesn't go your way. I protest social engineering when the one party of the government replaces education with indoctrination. Coming up next from Oklahoma - AP Science banned until vaccination and anti-vaccination benefits are given equal coverage AP Math banned until the Biblical definition of pi (3) is presented as a valid option AP Biology banned until creationism is presented as an alternative to evolution Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #27 February 19, 2015 QuoteYou should investigate a bit more as you and kallend are repeating the spin that only the sites you and he must frequent Did you investigate a bit more? What did you find? - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airdvr 210 #28 February 19, 2015 billvon>Then you can show me with what syllabus they took issue? https://secure-media.collegeboard.org/digitalServices/pdf/ap/ap-us-history-course-and-exam-description.pdf A quick scan doesn't show anything terribly out of place. I'm sure they took umbrage with the portrayal of slavery and the conservative rise in the later 20th century. So yes. Mississippi youth are about to become a bit more ill informed. Perhaps they're looking to raise the 80% high school graduation rate.Please don't dent the planet. Destinations by Roxanne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 221 #29 February 19, 2015 airdvr***>Then you can show me with what syllabus they took issue? https://secure-media.collegeboard.org/digitalServices/pdf/ap/ap-us-history-course-and-exam-description.pdf A quick scan doesn't show anything terribly out of place. I'm sure they took umbrage with the portrayal of slavery and the conservative rise in the later 20th century. So yes. Mississippi youth are about to become a bit more ill informed. Perhaps they're looking to raise the 80% high school graduation rate. Or . . . possibly ebb the curve of liberal indoctrination.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wolfriverjoe 1,523 #30 February 19, 2015 DanG Quote You should investigate a bit more as you and kallend are repeating the spin that only the sites you and he must frequent Did you investigate a bit more? What did you find? I don't know what Marc may or may not find, but I found something that is really subversive. They want to teach them to think for themselves!!! It starts on page 11. They want these kids to look at the context in which the history was written, who wrote it and what the writer's biases and objectives might be, and to actually look at different accounts of events to try and determine what the truth might be. They want these poor, innocent, vulnerable kids to actually learn to question what those in power have said!!! Well, obviously, those in power in Oklahoma can't have that happen. (sorta anyway)"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,008 #31 February 19, 2015 >They want to teach them to think for themselves!!! Exactly. They should break free of the shackles of liberal conformity. Sure, mathematics claims that pi is an irrational number that starts with 3.14159. But why can't it be 3? Or 4? Why not present the facts and let kids think for themselves? Why claim that one number is "right" and the others are "wrong?" That's biased liberal ivory-tower thinking. Everyone can be right. And the same in biology. They teach evolution now. Why not teach creationism too and let kids choose for themselves? DNA might be the genetic code that drives our development, or it might be the Number of the Beast. Kids are smarter than you think; teach both and let them decide based on the facts. And science. Sure, "scientists" say that the universe is about 14 billion years old. But it might be 6000. Why not teach them to actually look at different accounts of events to try and determine what the truth might be? And history. Now they teach that the US once supported slavery. But did it really? A lot of people would prefer that it never did - but they try to force the so-called "fact" of US slavery down their throats. They want these poor, innocent, vulnerable kids to not question what those in power have said! And the same in religious studies. Why not teach Christian values and . . WAIT! Under no circumstances will terrorist liberals be allowed to teach SHARIA LAW! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pchapman 279 #32 February 19, 2015 If one searches for the AP history course, there has been controversy online since mid 2014, so other articles are easy to find. One criticism was that some famous individuals were left out (e.g, Marty L. King). However, the authors note that the previous course did not include some of the same individuals. There was never any intent that the AP course information would be the sole source of history either in one course or through a student's time at school. The authors state it is a framework, not a full curriculum (1) Newsweek ran an article on the opposition, championed by one individual. Some of what he says highlights the issues for both sides:(2) Quote“As I read through the document, I saw a consistently negative view of American history that highlights oppressors and exploiters,” Krieger said on a conference call sponsored by two conservative groups fighting the new APUSH framework. He read quotes from the framework to illustrate his point: “Instead of striving to build a city on a hill, according to the Framework our nation’s Founders are portrayed as bigots who ‘developed a belief in white superiority’—that’s a quote—that was in turn derived from ‘a strong belief in British racial and cultural superiority’ and that of course led to ‘the creation of a rigid racial hierarchy.” To his continued horror, Manifest Destiny suffered the same fate as the Founders. An idea Krieger taught for years as “the belief that America had a mission to spread democracy and new technology across the continent” was described in the framework as “built on a belief in white racial superiority and a sense of American cultural superiority.” Perhaps most dispiriting to Krieger was the framework’s treatment of World War II. “There’s no discussion whatsoever of the valor or heroism of American soldiers,” Krieger said on the call. He then quoted from the framework: “Wartime experiences such as the internment of Japanese Americans, challenges to civil liberties, debates over race and segregation, and the decision to drop the atomic bomb raised questions about American values.” I think the idea isn't that America is bad, but that there are different aspects to be examined to everything that happened. Who the hell cares about the valor of American soldiers? Congrats, job well done, thanks for your sacrifice! But how is their valor any different from the valor of British soldiers (yay!), German Nazi soldiers (boo!), Russian soldiers (boo until 1941, then yay, then after 1946, boo!)? The group that released the AP course framework stated that is there to foster critical thinking skills. I'm all for that, but am then surprised that a multiple choice sample test was released. Whatever one's political view (unless extreme), that dumbs every issue down to one short answer, which can't be good. I can see there are more subtle issues where one can debate the political viewpoint -- such as talking about immigrants, whether they are an important new labour force or displacing others from jobs and heavily dependent on benefits and transfers. Or what reasons there were for poverty among the working class 150 years ago, whether the interpretation in the sample was too simplistic -- i.e. low wages. (Yeah, but why? Low skills? Simply a less affluent society, less to go around? Lack of worker protection? It can be complex.) These were also discussed briefly in the Newsweek article, note 2. (I recall a Simpsons episode where Apu the convenience store operator was trying to get his US citizenship. When asked about the cause of the civil war, he starts to go on how numerous factors were involved, at which point the annoyed examiner tells him, "Just say 'slavery'".) That opponent to the AP course, Krieger, stated that it has a "revisionist, progressive bias.” I'm not sure about the latter, maybe that could be argued. But the way US history comes across to a foreigner, a "revisionist" bias sure sounds good. I do like the writings of Professor James Loewen, like "Lies My Teacher Told Me: Everything Your American History Textbook Got Wrong ". Maybe he is a little pinko or something, I don't know. While his viewpoint isn't necessarily entirely valid, my outside impression is still that American history is in great need of a little revisionism, to get away from the jingoistic hero worship and American exceptionalism. And the belief that America can do little wrong (with limited exceptions, in which case things are mostly better now) but in any case always with the best of intentions. Such things limit the ability to make good decisions, because if America is almost always right, then little thought is required and any policy decision made must unquestionably be a good one. "Team America, Fuck Yeah!" Note 1: Open letter by authors of the AP course http://www.edweek.org/media/letter-us-history.pdf Note 2: http://www.newsweek.com/whats-driving-conservatives-mad-about-new-history-course-264592 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 221 #33 February 19, 2015 billvon >They want to teach them to think for themselves!!! Exactly. They should break free of the shackles of liberal conformity. Sure, mathematics claims that pi is an irrational number that starts with 3.14159. But why can't it be 3? Or 4? Why not present the facts and let kids think for themselves? Why claim that one number is "right" and the others are "wrong?" That's biased liberal ivory-tower thinking. Everyone can be right. And the same in biology. They teach evolution now. Why not teach creationism too and let kids choose for themselves? DNA might be the genetic code that drives our development, or it might be the Number of the Beast. Kids are smarter than you think; teach both and let them decide based on the facts. And science. Sure, "scientists" say that the universe is about 14 billion years old. But it might be 6000. Why not teach them to actually look at different accounts of events to try and determine what the truth might be? And history. Now they teach that the US once supported slavery. But did it really? A lot of people would prefer that it never did - but they try to force the so-called "fact" of US slavery down their throats. They want these poor, innocent, vulnerable kids to not question what those in power have said! And the same in religious studies. Why not teach Christian values and . . WAIT! Under no circumstances will terrorist liberals be allowed to teach SHARIA LAW! Damn Bill, I used to think you were rational and intelligent.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,500 #34 February 19, 2015 airdvrPretty simple...are they blocking all AP History courses or just the one? I'm thinking it's just one of many. But don't let the facts get in the way of a good conservative bashfest. Umm, you might want to look up how advanced placement works before you get into who's ignoring facts, mmkay?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,500 #35 February 19, 2015 turtlespeed Easy solution . . . change the course and tell more of a bipartisan"?" or balanced lesson. Seems pretty simple to me - they just don't want to be rail roaded or have the liberal agenda "shoved down their throats" What evidence do you have that AP writes it's courses with a liberal agenda? OTOH, we know that the people objecting to the course have a conservative agenda which they don't think is being fulfilled. Why should AP be railroaded into pushing a conservative agenda over historical accuracy?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,500 #36 February 19, 2015 turtlespeedOr . . . possibly ebb the curve of liberal indoctrination. Really? Airdvr looked at the syllabus and changed his mind. Have you looked at the syllabus. Which bit is indoctrination?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 221 #37 February 19, 2015 jakee***Or . . . possibly ebb the curve of liberal indoctrination. Really? Airdvr looked at the syllabus and changed his mind. Have you looked at the syllabus. Which bit is indoctrination? Evidently the community voted these elected officials to represent the majority. Unless you think that the elected officials shouldn't represent the people that elected them.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,030 #38 February 19, 2015 Fascinating how all the usual suspects are defending a descent into ignorance.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 221 #39 February 19, 2015 Just because you don't agree with the culture doesn't mean you should condemn it.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
catfishhunter 2 #40 February 19, 2015 kallend -defending a descent into ignorance. Something you are very familiar with MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #41 February 19, 2015 catfishhunter*** -defending a descent into ignorance. Something you are very familiar with "I know you are but what am I"? Really? You're on a roll today.* *ETA: Just to clarify, I'm not referring to a sandwich. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,008 #42 February 19, 2015 >Unless you think that the elected officials shouldn't represent the people that elected them. Do you think that schools should be required to teach the ideology of whichever party is in power? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 221 #43 February 19, 2015 billvon>Unless you think that the elected officials shouldn't represent the people that elected them. Do you think that schools should be required to teach the ideology of whichever party is in power?i think they were elected to represent those that elected them. Or are you saying you know what is better for those people than they do?I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,008 #44 February 19, 2015 >i think they were elected to represent those that elected them. Schools aren't elected. Government officials are. Now, back to the question: Do you think that schools should be required to teach the ideology of whichever party is in power? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #45 February 19, 2015 Turtle doesn't answer questions, he just replies with a rehashed version of: I know what you are, but what am I.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,326 #46 February 19, 2015 Warning: Threadkiller Change is in the air. http://www.tulsaworld.com/homepage1/oklahoma-lawmaker-says-he-will-pull-back-controversial-ap-history/article_3f733d69-f450-5b72-af81-696142327df3.htmlNobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,500 #47 February 19, 2015 turtlespeed******Or . . . possibly ebb the curve of liberal indoctrination. Really? Airdvr looked at the syllabus and changed his mind. Have you looked at the syllabus. Which bit is indoctrination? Evidently the community voted these elected officials to represent the majority. Unless you think that the elected officials shouldn't represent the people that elected them. OK, so (leaving aside the idea that elected officials should do everything their constituents want) now I have two questions. 1) (Again) Have you looked at the syllabus and if so which bit is indoctrination? 2) How do you know the majority of Oklahomans don't want their kids to be able to take AP US History?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,030 #48 February 19, 2015 turtlespeedJust because you don't agree with the culture doesn't mean you should condemn it. Nice Goebbelsian response. It's the proponent of the bill who wants to propagandize the kids in OK. It's AP History, NOT AP Chauvinism or AP Cheerleading.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,008 #49 February 19, 2015 >Change is in the air. Excellent! Sanity prevails, and Oklahoma avoids a Mississipian fate. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,326 #50 February 19, 2015 billvon >Change is in the air. Excellent! Sanity prevails, and Oklahoma avoids a Mississipian fate. Well, let's not get ahead of ourselves. Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
