Florida bars doctor advice to patients

[rehmwa 2]

jakee

the difference between asking and demanding.

that's the position most here are taking -
1 - what a stupid law
2 - yet agree with the idea that doctors should mind their own business

the rest can't seem to wrap their heads around the fact that most people can simultaneously advocate #2 yet still have the #1 opinion......these people typically like to think that any opinion they have deserves legislation to force on others......and then project that on everyone else. It's a major communication breakdown in speaker's corner - that and grammar

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rushmc 23]

jakee

Quote

Guns have special status of being protected by the Constitution. Whether you agree with that or not is a separate question. The right to free speech doesn't mean a cop can stop you and ask you questions because there is a 4th amendment.

I think you're wrong, you're looking at it in the wrong way and that's why there's a disagreement. A cop can ask you questions about pretty much anything, he needs cause to hold you and compell an answer.

That's where I think you guys are getting fuzzy, the difference between asking and demanding.

Wrong
You are not required to answer ANY question other than your name

A cop can not compell you to answer any other questions
That said
He sure as hell will try to get an answer

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[lawrocket 3]

jakee

Quote

Guns have special status of being protected by the Constitution. Whether you agree with that or not is a separate question. The right to free speech doesn't mean a cop can stop you and ask you questions because there is a 4th amendment.

I think you're wrong, you're looking at it in the wrong way and that's why there's a disagreement. A cop can ask you questions about pretty much anything, he needs cause to hold you and compell an answer.

That's where I think you guys are getting fuzzy, the difference between asking and demanding.

There are grey areas. You are correct. A cop will usually find cause to hold you. Or fudge on why you aren't allowed to go.

Again, I've said that I think that the best response would be to not answer it. But that is just me.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[rehmwa 2]

lawrocket

There are grey areas. You are correct. A cop will usually find cause to hold you. Or fudge on why you aren't allowed to go.

Again, I've said that I think that the best response would be to not answer it. But that is just me.

So,,,,if a doctor stops me in the street and asks me why I'm loitering, I hold up my arms and hands and yell "hands up! don't shoot! I'm not resisting!!" and approach quickly?

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Driver1 0]

rushmc

***

Quote

Guns have special status of being protected by the Constitution. Whether you agree with that or not is a separate question. The right to free speech doesn't mean a cop can stop you and ask you questions because there is a 4th amendment.

I think you're wrong, you're looking at it in the wrong way and that's why there's a disagreement. A cop can ask you questions about pretty much anything, he needs cause to hold you and compell an answer.

That's where I think you guys are getting fuzzy, the difference between asking and demanding.

Wrong
You are not required to answer ANY question other than your name

A cop can not compell you to answer any other questions
That said
He sure as hell will try to get an answer

I do think he can ask you if you have any weapons in your vehicle. Of course, its better to declare them before he asks, as long as they're legal. They'll thank you for your honesty.

There will be no addressing the customers as "Bitches", "Morons" or "Retards"!

[billvon 2,990]

>You have a solution?

Sure. Let doctors ask. Let patients refuse to answer. Problem solved.

[rehmwa 2]

billvon

>You have a solution?

Sure. Let doctors ask. Let patients refuse to answer. Problem solved.

this ^^


(and it's not even 'Let' doctors ask, it's just don't pass a law either way)

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Shotgun 1]

billvon

>You have a solution?

Sure. Let doctors ask. Let patients refuse to answer. Problem solved.

From the link you posted, one patient was told she would have to find another doctor when she refused to answer her doctor's question about guns. Do you agree with a doctor being able to refuse treatment if a patient refuses to answer?

[jakee 1,489]

Quote

Wrong

Learn to read, Rush. It'll make all our lives easier.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[rehmwa 2]

jakee

Quote

Wrong

Learn to read, Rush. It'll make all our lives easier.

just beat me to it.

Rush - Jakee said a cop can ask me anything he wants. no kidding.
You answered the question about me answering those questions.

"him asking" doesn't equal "me answering"


that's a Kallend tactic - He says "WRONG" and then proceeds to agree with you. Don't go that way.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[jakee 1,489]

Shotgun

***>You have a solution?

Sure. Let doctors ask. Let patients refuse to answer. Problem solved.

From the link you posted, one patient was told she would have to find another doctor when she refused to answer her doctor's question about guns. Do you agree with a doctor being able to refuse treatment if a patient refuses to answer?

That sucks. I would hope and expect that there were already regulations in place regarding arbitrary refusal of care that would cover such a situation. But I'm not american, and you guys tend to view healthcare very differently to the rest of the world

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Shotgun 1]

jakee

******>You have a solution?

Sure. Let doctors ask. Let patients refuse to answer. Problem solved.

From the link you posted, one patient was told she would have to find another doctor when she refused to answer her doctor's question about guns. Do you agree with a doctor being able to refuse treatment if a patient refuses to answer?

That sucks. I would hope and expect that there were already regulations in place regarding arbitrary refusal of care that would cover such a situation. But I'm not american, and you guys tend to view healthcare very differently to the rest of the world

I don't know if there are other regulations that should apply, but this (specific to questions about firearms) is one of the issues that appears to be covered in the Firearm Owners’ Privacy Act.

[jakee 1,489]

Shotgun

I don't know if there are other regulations that should apply, but this (specific to questions about firearms) is one of the issues that appears to be covered in the Firearm Owners’ Privacy Act.

The point is that it's probably redundant. Any reasonable healthcare service should already have general regulations covering such instances instead of needing a specific provisions for any object you could care to name. Otherwise you'd end up with a countless number of [Insert Item] Owners' Privacy Acts.

Unless you agree with a doctor being able to refuse treatment if a patient refuses to answer questions about what brand of refridgerator they use?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Andy9o8 2]

jakee

******>You have a solution?

Sure. Let doctors ask. Let patients refuse to answer. Problem solved.

From the link you posted, one patient was told she would have to find another doctor when she refused to answer her doctor's question about guns. Do you agree with a doctor being able to refuse treatment if a patient refuses to answer?

That sucks. I would hope and expect that there were already regulations in place regarding arbitrary refusal of care that would cover such a situation. But I'm not american, and you guys tend to view healthcare very differently to the rest of the world

Well now you've got to deal with the definition of "arbitrary" refusal. The doc will say it's a matter of comprehensive patient and patient-family safety, in his professional opinion, and thus not arbitrary. You and I can see both sides of that debate, but it helps to frame the issues. They're not so cut and dried.

[billvon 2,990]

>Do you agree with a doctor being able to refuse treatment if a patient refuses to answer?

Depends on the issue/question.

If the doctor asks "did you take your medication?" and the patient refuses to answer, AND it persists, then yes, I'd agree with the doctor being able to refuse treatment.

If the doctor asks "will you go out with me?" and the patient refuses to answer, then I'd disagree with the doctor refusing treatment.

If the doctor asks a single woman with no unusual history "do you have guns?" and the patient refuses to answer, then I'd disagree with the doctor refusing treatment.

If the doctor asks the parent of a toddler who has previously been treated for a gunshot wound "do you have guns?" and the parent refuses to answer, then I'd agree with the doctor being able to refuse treatment.

Who is the best person to decide when the doctor has inappropriately refused treatment? The ethics board of the American Medical Association or similar professional association.

[rehmwa 2]

jakee

***I don't know if there are other regulations that should apply, but this (specific to questions about firearms) is one of the issues that appears to be covered in the Firearm Owners’ Privacy Act.

The point is that it's probably redundant. Any reasonable healthcare service should already have general regulations covering such instances instead of needing a specific provisions for any object you could care to name. Otherwise you'd end up with a countless number of [Insert Item] Owners' Privacy Acts.

Unless you agree with a doctor being able to refuse treatment if a patient refuses to answer questions about what brand of refridgerator they use?

You are killing me right now - I'd like to nominate you for Congress with that comment. Dammit - ok - I'm buying

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

billvon

>If the doctor asks the parent of a toddler who has previously been treated for a gunshot wound "do you have guns?" and the parent refuses to answer, then I'd agree with the doctor being able to refuse treatment.

this one, again, why is that medically related?

the first time, law requires gunshot wounds to be reported to the police - THEY are the ones to investigate under law

not a doctor, or the postman, or the dentist, or the carpet layer

I'm reaching for ANY medical reason for that question - Maybe the doctor is a freaking Sherlock Holmes and will be able to tell the exact temperature of a powder burn and thus the correct salve to use if he knows the type of ammo....just so he can keep it in stock for "next time"

I think your other questions make a lot of sense.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[DanG 1]

How about if the patient reports depression and thoughts of suicide? Should the doctor be banned from asking about guns then?

- Dan G

[rehmwa 2]

DanG

How about if the patient reports depression and thoughts of suicide? Should the doctor be banned from asking about guns then?

that's in interesting one that might apply better....good to think on. I'd suspect knowing that would be something that's legally required as a law enforcement reporting item, but not for medical treatment.

I'd say only after a positive diagnosis of acute depression (that pesky innocent until proven thing getting in the way), then I could make arguments for that....especially for a psychiatrist, not as clear cut for an MD - IMHO

But wouldn't it be more analogous to Cholesterol issues - the doctor should advise the patient to keep bad foods out of the house - he isn't really obligated to ask how many boxes of Ding Dongs are in the house. A psychiatrist can direct the patient to remove weapons to a friend's house without having to know the specifics. And if there's a criminal concern, ...... tougher

what do you think?


I am going to take the Ding Dong analogy to the Child's office visit - Symptoms, the kid has chronic stomach issues, blood test consistently shows high sugar levels, etc etc - Dr is probing (for the sake of the diagnosis) - "do you have a lot of sweets in the house" "YES (smile)" - Dr calls parent into the office to advise on keeping sweets out of reach of the child and how much is OK vs too much.....That works for me.

See......just not having a law about it either way makes sense to me and Parents should be in the room anyway and decide if some of the questions do cross the line.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[jakee 1,489]

Quote

I'd like to nominate you for Congress with that comment.

You bastard, I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy!

Although, don't they get offered loads of bribe er, ahem, freebies? Ok, we're all good

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[funjumper101 15]

jakee

***I don't know if there are other regulations that should apply, but this (specific to questions about firearms) is one of the issues that appears to be covered in the Firearm Owners’ Privacy Act.

The point is that it's probably redundant. Any reasonable healthcare service should already have general regulations covering such instances instead of needing a specific provisions for any object you could care to name. Otherwise you'd end up with a countless number of [Insert Item] Owners' Privacy Acts.

Unless you agree with a doctor being able to refuse treatment if a patient refuses to answer questions about what brand of refridgerator they use?

Since when does a refrigerator, when used as the product is designed to be used, have a very high likelihood to kill or injure people?
Especially likely if operated by a child or angry adult.

I have seen some asinine arguments and rationalizations on this board, here, but this one is far more ridiculous than the usual drivel.

A gun, be it a handgun, shotgun, or rifle, is designed to have a very high likelihood to kill that which it is directed against. No rational person could make an argument that a refrigerator has the same lethal potential.

Utterly ridiculous. This is what passes for rational thinking these days? A refrigerator equated with firearms? Unbelievable!

[billvon 2,990]

>this one, again, why is that medically related?

Well, for one reason, the AAP (American Association of Pediatrics) recommends that doctors discuss gun safety with the parents of small children. Discussing gun safety with a parent who does not own guns seems like a waste of time.

From the AAP:
=============
Research has shown that physician counseling about gun locks and safe storage, tailored to a child's specific age and development, increases the likelihood a family will take the steps to store their firearms safely. Pediatricians routinely counsel families about firearm safety just as they offer guidance on seat belt use, helmets and parental tobacco use to reduce the risk of injury to children where they live and play.
=============

[kallend 2,026]

Shotgun

***>You have a solution?

Sure. Let doctors ask. Let patients refuse to answer. Problem solved.

From the link you posted, one patient was told she would have to find another doctor when she refused to answer her doctor's question about guns. Do you agree with a doctor being able to refuse treatment if a patient refuses to answer?

AFAIK, a doctor can ask a patient to find another doctor any time for pretty much any reason except prohibited discrimination. The doctor has to continue to provide treatment for another 30 days before termination.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Shotgun 1]

billvon

>Do you agree with a doctor being able to refuse treatment if a patient refuses to answer?

Depends on the issue/question.

The issue/question was a woman being told to find another pediatrician because she refused to answer a question about whether she kept guns in her house. Your link didn't say specifically, but I didn't get the impression that her child had a gunshot wound (or any other gun-related issue) that inspired the question.

The link implies that AMA policy is the reason that this doctor was asking the question in the first place. (So I'm not sure I would look to them for guidance in this particular ethics issue.)

[Glitch 0]

So how does this equate to a doctor asking my 16 yr old if we have guns in our house... and then me finding it recorded in her medical file???

Randomly f'n thingies up since before I was born...