Suslique 0 #101 May 13, 2015 Has anyone over here heard of permaculture? Here's their solution: http://permaculturenews.org/2014/12/15/drought-proofing-california-not-in-the-news/ 'Can a man still be brave if he's afraid?' 'That is the only time a man can be brave.' George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airdvr 210 #102 May 14, 2015 Unfortunately years of feeble minded governance has taken the state so far off course they won't be able to find their way back. The only real solution...U-Haul.Please don't dent the planet. Destinations by Roxanne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #103 June 15, 2015 ElishaThis looks like a pretty good article summarizing the (California) situation. http://www.vox.com/2015/4/10/8379221/california-drought-water-crisis Here's another summary that seems relevant: Rich Californians balk at limits: ‘We’re not all equal when it comes to water’ QuoteYuhas lives in the ultra-wealthy enclave of Rancho Santa Fe, a bucolic Southern California hamlet of ranches, gated communities and country clubs that guzzles five times more water per capita than the statewide average. In April, after Gov. Jerry Brown (D) called for a 25 percent reduction in water use, consumption in Rancho Santa Fe went up by 9 percent. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,070 #104 June 15, 2015 QuoteYuhas lives in the ultra-wealthy enclave of Rancho Santa Fe Rancho Santa Fe. You will never find a more wretched hive of snobbery and dickishness. They have gated communities with little marked areas outside the gates where the "help" gets dropped off in the morning. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #105 June 15, 2015 Quotethe "help" gets dropped off in the morning. Rumor has it: they check in, but they never check out. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 226 #106 June 16, 2015 billvonQuoteYuhas lives in the ultra-wealthy enclave of Rancho Santa Fe Rancho Santa Fe. You will never find a more wretched hive of snobbery and dickishness. They have gated communities with little marked areas outside the gates where the "help" gets dropped off in the morning. Driver: These are not the gardeners you are looking for. Guard: These are not the gardeners we are looking for.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
champu 1 #107 June 16, 2015 I always thought it was funny that there is a gated neighborhood in Manhattan Beach. All I can say is, "man... those people must really love being in a home-owners association." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeorgiaDon 379 #108 June 16, 2015 QuoteIf you're referring to crop rotation, farmers have been doing that since after the dust-bowl. For some reason, which I do not understand, it seems as though there is a faction in this country to do away with farmers and ranchers.In Colorado the farmers and ranchers (at least, the ones who have ancestors who claimed water rights 100 years ago) even own the rain that falls from the sky. It is illegal, and punishable by a $500/day fine, to use or divert water that is coming off your roof. Ranching interests this year blocked passage of a proposed law that would have allowed homeowners to use a rain barrel to catch rain to water their garden. The courts have not yet ruled whether or not farmers also own the clouds. Don_____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Elisha 1 #109 June 16, 2015 GeorgiaDonQuoteIf you're referring to crop rotation, farmers have been doing that since after the dust-bowl. For some reason, which I do not understand, it seems as though there is a faction in this country to do away with farmers and ranchers.In Colorado the farmers and ranchers (at least, the ones who have ancestors who claimed water rights 100 years ago) even own the rain that falls from the sky. It is illegal, and punishable by a $500/day fine, to use or divert water that is coming off your roof. Ranching interests this year blocked passage of a proposed law that would have allowed homeowners to use a rain barrel to catch rain to water their garden. The courts have not yet ruled whether or not farmers also own the clouds. Don Can you explain this more? Yes, I've read about these laws, but how can a governmental agency forbid one to use the water that falls from the sky on one's property? It lands on the ground or a structure then runs on to the ground. They can't do anything about it (practically speaking). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
winsor 236 #110 June 16, 2015 Elisha***QuoteIf you're referring to crop rotation, farmers have been doing that since after the dust-bowl. For some reason, which I do not understand, it seems as though there is a faction in this country to do away with farmers and ranchers.In Colorado the farmers and ranchers (at least, the ones who have ancestors who claimed water rights 100 years ago) even own the rain that falls from the sky. It is illegal, and punishable by a $500/day fine, to use or divert water that is coming off your roof. Ranching interests this year blocked passage of a proposed law that would have allowed homeowners to use a rain barrel to catch rain to water their garden. The courts have not yet ruled whether or not farmers also own the clouds. Don Can you explain this more? Yes, I've read about these laws, but how can a governmental agency forbid one to use the water that falls from the sky on one's property? It lands on the ground or a structure then runs on to the ground. They can't do anything about it (practically speaking). They're doing it for our own good. Think of the children. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #111 June 16, 2015 GeorgiaDon Quote If you're referring to crop rotation, farmers have been doing that since after the dust-bowl. For some reason, which I do not understand, it seems as though there is a faction in this country to do away with farmers and ranchers. In Colorado the farmers and ranchers (at least, the ones who have ancestors who claimed water rights 100 years ago) even own the rain that falls from the sky. It is illegal, and punishable by a $500/day fine, to use or divert water that is coming off your roof. Ranching interests this year blocked passage of a proposed law that would have allowed homeowners to use a rain barrel to catch rain to water their garden. The courts have not yet ruled whether or not farmers also own the clouds. Don Sounds about like the EPA! They are trying to get control of damned near everything water related. In the case you supplied, appears like some of those farmers and ranchers got a little 'Rocky Mountain High' goin' on. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #112 June 16, 2015 It's things like this that breeds violence against the haves by the have-nots. And there are plenty of guns in that state, too. Maybe the ranchers might have some perspective about their piggishness if a few of them have.... accidents. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,070 #113 June 16, 2015 >Sounds about like the EPA! They are trying to get control of damned near everything >water related. Right, except in this case it's the farmers. And this is just the tip of the iceberg. In Colorado the farmers don't want you to "take" their water. ("How'd my irrigation water get on that guy's roof, anyway?") In the Central Valley, farmers are pumping so much ground water that the ground is dropping two feet a YEAR in some places - and then having someone else replace all the bridges and canals and roads and rails that are damaged. And they are still growing almonds and alfalfa because $$$. Meanwhile industries are having to shut down due to lack of process water. Companies that sell drinking water for human consumption are getting threatened with getting their water supplies cut off, while farmers growing alfalfa for cattle are pumping water as fast as they can. We might have a wet year next year and everyone will go back to ignoring the problem. I sort of hope we don't, because we need to come up with solutions that work for dry years AND wet years, and does not prioritize cattle feed over water for human consumption. I would also point out that we (as in the towns, farmers, ranchers etc) can solve this problem or the EPA can solve it for us. While I'd like to think that it can be solved at a local level, I have a feeling that greed will keep the farmers pumping as fast as they can, and it will eventually become a problem that the EPA (or equivalent government agency) has to solve. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cvfd1399 0 #114 June 16, 2015 I'll take amazons stance on New Orleans being built under water here. I'm glad the south west is having a water shortage, that's what you get for living in a desert. You can't control Mother Nature forever. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #115 June 16, 2015 I've been thinking for some time that our next 'civil war' would be over water. We as a nation waste more water than we use. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #116 June 16, 2015 I agree with that, big time. We should have enough brain power at a 'local level' to solve the problem. We don't need some government agency sticking their nose in our business. Government agencies have gotten to big, too powerful and too damned costly. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,106 #117 June 17, 2015 masterrigI've been thinking for some time that our next 'civil war' would be over water. We as a nation waste more water than we use. Chuck Houston has plenty. Maybe they'll send some.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #118 June 17, 2015 kallend***I've been thinking for some time that our next 'civil war' would be over water. We as a nation waste more water than we use. Chuck Houston has plenty. Maybe they'll send some. pity there isn't an infrastructure already in place to do just that. I guess aircraft carrier battle groups are more important than that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #119 June 17, 2015 They're getting it now, as we type. The sharing part is in the hands of a much higher power. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cvfd1399 0 #120 June 17, 2015 Pass the keystone pipeline and it will send them water until drought is over.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,436 #121 June 17, 2015 Hi Chuck, QuoteWe should have enough brain power at a 'local level' to solve the problem. But you do not. As mentioned above, it is all about greed. QuoteWe don't need some government agency sticking their nose in our business. Sorry, but yes you do. Since the 'enough brain power' thingy is not working, then it is time for the gov't. to deal with it. Or would you suggest a vote of the 7 Little Dwarfs to solve these problems; see the greed comment in the earlier posting. Jerry Baumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #122 June 17, 2015 I see... Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #123 June 17, 2015 >>> We might have a wet year next year and everyone will go back to ignoring the problem. I sort of hope we don't, because we need to come up with solutions that work for dry years AND wet years, and does not prioritize cattle feed over water for human consumption. The population centers will go back to ignoring the problem. The rural areas (who lack the votes to get anything done) will continue trying to get something done. And the legislators will pass a requirement that schools give ten hours per year of instruction on how droughts help with sustainable living This has been HUGE here since before I moved here. I'm probably typical in that when I was living in the population center I just a didn't care so long as water came out the tap. The California public demands its beef. Perhaps with a trade agreement California can import it's food from China. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
aphid 0 #124 June 17, 2015 lawrocket The California public demands its beef. Perhaps with a trade agreement California can import it's food from China. FWIW, speaking of beef and water... The US has been putting up additional hurdles for years to reduce the export of Canadian beef to the US. I believe this is the third and final ruling from the World Court: "Canada, Mexico win final round in battle against US meat-label rules" "The United States has used and exhausted all possible means to avoid its international obligations,” said a statement from Canada’s agriculture and trade ministers." source: http://globalnews.ca/news/2004037/canada-mexico-win-final-round-in-battle-against-us-meat-label-rules/ Not that it matters much. IIRC, I think we're still waiting for our money to be refunded (20 years on) for the tariffs levied by the US on our softwood lumber also ruled illegal by the World Court. Water? Oh Jeebus, we have water (and snow, and ice). But like you, ours is not inexhaustible either. Some of use aren't too happy with the slope our politicians seem to have started. "Outrage boils over as B.C. government plans to sell groundwater for $2.25 per million litres" source: http://www.theprovince.com/news/Outrage+boils+over+government+plans+sell+groundwater+million+litres/10865416/story.html "In 2011, Nestlé was listed No. 1 in the Fortune Global 500 as the world’s most profitable corporation" source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestl%C3%A9#Joint_ventures Most Canadians understand that it won't be long before our friendly neighbor comes calling. And our relationship will likely become very un-friendly, very quickly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeorgiaDon 379 #125 June 17, 2015 masterrigI agree with that, big time. We should have enough brain power at a 'local level' to solve the problem. We don't need some government agency sticking their nose in our business. Government agencies have gotten to big, too powerful and too damned costly. ChuckYet, farmers were able to get laws passed that state that they own the water even as it falls from the sky. And, they were able to derail legislation that would have allowed homeowners to capture a small amount of that water to temporarily divert it to watering gardens. It doesn't matter that ultimately the water ends up in the soil, replenishing ground water that feeds the rivers, and so eventually reaches the farmers after a short but productive detour. It's their water dammit, and no-one else can touch it even if it happens to fall on someone else's land. Just like California, the situation exists because the rights to use water were given to a small number of ranchers over a century ago. At the time, the intent was to encourage people to move West and homestead, and no thought was given to the day when the land would be full of people, industries, and farms that all need water. Now we have a situation where a stream may flow across your land, but you can be prosecuted for removing a single cup to drink. We have legislators comparing rain barrels to allowing people to go into stores and empty the shelves of bottled water without having to pay for it. No amount of local "brain power" will be able to redistribute the water, because it was all given away to a few ranchers a century ago, they own it, and they will not willingly part with so much as a drop. Any solution will have to involve "re-negotiating" water rights, and if one side refuses to negotiate then legislative and judicial action (=government) is the only option left. Don_____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
