tandem students and alcohol

[fireballgrl 0]

I guess I would consider myself relatively new to the sport...less than 5 years and 50+ jumps. I cannot speak with authority on any disciplines in skydiving. I do however work on the business side and risk management is always in the back of my mind.

I am accutely aware of the stigma attached to skydivers. We are seen as reckless, crazy, drug-induced dare devils to some people. I feel that my dz does their best to be professional, and safety conscience towards our students.

I have recently heard reports of tandem students being allowed to drink beer at a local non-uspa dz before going up on their jump. They were told that "since they were going tandem it didn't matter if they drank one or two." This just seems crazy and reckless to me. Maybe this happens at other dz's outside of the midwest but I doubt any one will admit it on an open forum.

The students also mentioned that there was absolutely no training administered, which I know happens at tandem mills across the country. However, especially in light of recent incidents, I know the manufacturer requires ALL students to at least watch the Relative Workshop/Strong tandem video explaining their waivers.

Long story short, those students wisely went down the road and made their jump elsewhere, after seeing the aircraft belch oil all over the tarmac.

I am here to discriminate against those Fandango type dz's that make the conscientious dz's look poorly as well. This may not be a popular view, but I know we do not need the FAA or any other governing body coming in to over-regulate us out of business.

I fully expect to get flamed by people willing to defend their right to drink and skydive. I do have a problem with telling unwitting students that it is fine to do so. Students are scared, nervous and put their full confidence and trust in their instructors. That is scary!

[freefalle 0]

I truly believe, and hope that the story you heard is the exception, not the rule. Personally, If I see or think that my tandem student has been drinking or is under the influence of a mind altering substance, they aren't going with me. As far as not being properly instructed before boarding the aircraft, again, I hope that is the exception no matter how busy it is, we should never be too busy to teach

[fireballgrl 0]

I agree with you...thankfully, I think that it is the exception. I know most of the dzos within a 200 mile radius. To my knowledge, all are doing things within the FAA laws, the BSR's and USPA regs.

Independence was one of those exceptions. They crashed a poorly maintained 206 and killed 6 jumpers in 98. The few exceptions should not be allowed to fly under the radar until someone gets hurt or killed. We as an industry suffer for a few individuals sins.

[Andrewwhyte 1]

It probably isn't the end of the world for a tandem student to have one or two. The chance of them barfing on me goes way up though; no thanks.

[yamtx73 0]

I'm curious as to which local "non-uspa" dz you're referring to....

The only naturals in this sport shit thru feathers...

[PhreeZone 20]

Its a really easy guess if you know the area and the DZ politics in that area

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[mjosparky 4]

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It probably isn't the end of the world for a tandem student to have one or two. The chance of them barfing on me goes way up though; no thanks.

You may feel that it is not the end of the world but it could be the end of the DZ, the pilots career and a large fine for you.

105.7 Use of alcohol and drugs.

No person may conduct a parachute operation, and no pilot in command of an aircraft may allow a person to conduct a parachute operation from that aircraft, if that person is or appears to be under the influence of—

(a) Alcohol, or

(b) Any drug that affects that person's faculties in any way contrary to safety.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[diablopilot 2]

Not saying it's right, but reading that it still could be argued that a student's BAC unimportant as they are a "passenger' not conducting the "parachute operation"

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[mjosparky 4]

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Not saying it's right, but reading that it still could be argued that a student's BAC unimportant as they are a "passenger' not conducting the "parachute operation"

105.3____ Definitions.

For the purposes of this part—

Parachute operation means the performance of all activity for the purpose of, or in support of, a parachute jump or a parachute drop. This parachute operation can involve, but is not limited to, the following persons: parachutist, parachutist in command and passenger in tandem parachute operations, drop zone or owner or operator, jump master, certificated parachute rigger, or pilot.

You should know me better than that.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Andrewwhyte 1]

Sorry, laws made by foreigners don't affect me.

[ast4711 0]

I had one passenger who drunk a (one?) beer before the tandem once, after signing the waiver and sent him home. I think we have to be consequent there. Another TI told me that he had one long ago and he got so sick on canopy....

On the other hand, I got much of feedback from passengers, that state only treating them professional, taking enough time and demonstrate calmness made it comfortable for them to jump.
I think this is much more important than rushing them down....

alex

--
www.tandemmaster.net
www.skydivegear.de

[mjosparky 4]

Quote

Sorry, laws made by foreigners don't affect me.

CSPA Parachutist Information Manual – Part I

2.6 No jumper shall make, or attempt to make, a parachute descent while under the
influence of a drug, alcoholic beverage or other type of intoxicant.

How about rules made in your own country? And if all else fails you can always fall back on common sense.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[yamtx73 0]

Yes, I know of the dz politics in the area... I was wondering if this was an actual event or perhaps yet another veiled attempt at discrediting a certain dz... considering a thread in another forum I have the feeling it's the latter....

The only naturals in this sport shit thru feathers...

[popsjumper 2]

Call me a hard-ass...Alcohol/Drugs? Go home and come back sober...no questions asked.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[mark 107]

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105.7 Use of alcohol and drugs. [paraphrased and edited for brevity]

No person may conduct a parachute operation if that person is or appears to be under the influence of alcohol.

The blood alcohol level required to sustain a DUI charge is 0.08 - .10 for automobile drivers in most of the US. Pilots are held to a stricter standard, but the standard is NOT 0.0.

I support traditional zero tolerance for pre-jump alcohol use, but I wonder if there is a legal basis for holding skydivers to a stricter standard than drivers or pilots. How much alcohol does it take before a person can be said to be legally "under the influence"?

Mark

Edited to move decimal points.

[Belgian_Skygirl 0]

At our dz no alcohol is being served at alle during the activites. Whoever wants to have a beer will have to wait untill the jump activities are finished. Visitors of the dz follow the same policy.

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No dive, like skydive... wanna bet on it?

[jdthomas 0]

Once more fireballgrl (Jenny, manifester for skydive kansas city in butler mo) has "Just the facts". And yes that is refrence to your past user name in the old KC threads.

www.greenboxphotography.com

[popsjumper 2]

Busted!!!!!

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[riggerrob 643]

The rules may be slightly different in Belgium - than they are in France or Germany - but I remember instructing at Strassbourg, France, back in the mid-1980s. A city-imposed curfew grounded us for a couple of hours at mid-day, so we retired to the bistro on the edge of the airport for a leasurely lunch. Jumpers were allowed a beer or glass of wine with lunch. No on thought this was unusual.
However, as instructors, we were expected to set a good example, so we only drank coffee with lunch.

My point is, European adults can be trusted to have ONE beer with lunch. Apparently North Americans are not as mature.

[riggerrob 643]

[How much alcohol does it take before a person can be said to be legally "under the influence"?

Mark

[Andrewwhyte 1]

Quote

Quote

Sorry, laws made by foreigners don't affect me.

CSPA Parachutist Information Manual – Part I

2.6 No jumper shall make, or attempt to make, a parachute descent while under the
influence of a drug, alcoholic beverage or other type of intoxicant.
How about rules made in your own country? And if all else fails you can always fall back on common sense.

I already said I wouldn't let them go. It just has nothing to do with the FAA and no one would be getting a fine or getting the DZ closed.

[Ron 10]

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My point is, European adults can be trusted to have ONE beer with lunch. Apparently North Americans are not as mature.

Or maybe we live in a Country where lawsuits are more common?

Jumping while drinking is against the law in the US and anyone letting a person jump after even one drink is opening themselves up for a lawsuit.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

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The blood alcohol level required to sustain a DUI charge is 0.8 - 1.0 for automobile drivers in most of the US. Pilots are held to a stricter standard, but the standard is NOT 0.0.

I support traditional zero tolerance for pre-jump alcohol use, but I wonder if there is a legal basis for holding skydivers to a stricter standard than drivers or pilots. How much alcohol does it take before a person can be said to be legally "under the influence"?

Pilots are required to not fly for 8 hours after drinking. Pilots are also required by law to not allow someone under the influence to fly as a passenger.

§ 91.17 Alcohol or drugs.
(a) No person may act or attempt to act as a crewmember of a civil aircraft—

(1) Within 8 hours after the consumption of any alcoholic beverage;

(2) While under the influence of alcohol;

(3) While using any drug that affects the person's faculties in any way contrary to safety; or

(4) While having .04 percent by weight or more alcohol in the blood.

(You would have to be wasted to have a .04 8 hours later.)

(b) Except in an emergency, no pilot of a civil aircraft may allow a person who appears to be intoxicated or who demonstrates by manner or physical indications that the individual is under the influence of drugs (except a medical patient under proper care) to be carried in that aircraft.

If you can tell they have been drinking they cannot be flown.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[rickanderson 0]

so did this stuff actually happen? your message is not too clear but maybe that is for a reason

by the way I dont think it matters weather it is a USPA drop zone, there can be good or bad drop zones of any type.

I dont think drinking before jumpoing is good, a tandem student almost puked on me in the airplane, I bet the TM liked that!

[mark 107]

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If you can tell they have been drinking they cannot be flown.

If that were true, airlines couldn't serve alcoholic beverages, could they? If a person is sober enough to be an airline passenger, are they sober enough to skydive? I think not necessarily, but it is not clear to me that there is an absolute legal prohibition against drinking just before (or while) skydiving. What is the legal definition of "under the influence?"

Mark