billvon 2,990 #51 July 31, 2015 >I said the guy was being antsy Well, there's your justification right there. Antsy people are dangerous, and a bullet to the head is really the only reasonable response. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 348 #52 July 31, 2015 I never said the cop 'did' any of those things. I am opening up a dialogue about the possibility of changing things so maybe fewer people die....and you are making assumptions about things that I said that i did not say. i am pretty clear on what I say and what I mean and i am also pretty clear about what I DO NOT mean.....again, i said I did not have all the answers. If you comprehension of what I say is limited, then that is your problem, not mine. Let me try that....."so what you are really saying is that all cops should be free to shoot black people in the head whenever they feel threatened". Not what you said, but could be the way I interpret it. so like I said, stop nitpicking and join the conversation. or don't. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeorgiaDon 362 #53 July 31, 2015 QuoteI specifically said "I do not have all the answers" But I am sure that the situation can be improved over what it is today. Bottom line, stopping cops from shooting people in the head for license violations...OR FOR DRINKING AND DRIVING sounds good to me.None of us have "all the answers", and no-one is arguing that shooting people in the head (or anywhere else) was an appropriate response to the situation. However, you seem to also have a problem with the fact that he was pulled over at all, and with him being asked to step out of the car. Let me ask you, do you think vehicles should have license plates at all? What do you think the police should do if they see an unlicensed vehicle being driven on a public road? [I know not all states require both front and rear plates, but in Ohio they do require both so the vehicle was not in compliance.] Do you think people should have to have a driver's license at all to drive on public roads? If people do have to have a license, and this fellow did not have one on him, what should a cop do? Just let him drive off? Assume he has one but just forgot it at home? Around here, if you are stopped and don't have your license on you, you get a ticket and have to call someone to come and pick you up, you are not allowed to continue driving. It's a nuisance, if you did just forget your license, but what is the alternative (in your opinion). BTW if you did just forget your license you have to go to the sheriff or police station and show it and they will cancel the ticket, another inconvenience but preferable to the alternatives IMO. While there can be innocent reasons for not having plates on your car (stolen and you didn't realize it, or bolts rusted and it fell off I suppose) in the great majority of cases it's because the car is unregistered, and usually that means the driver is uninsured at best, sometimes both uninsured and unlicensed. Personally I don't want such people sharing the road with me, and I don't have a problem with the police pulling over vehicles for missing license plates. Once again, that does not mean I want to see them shot in the head. Don_____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grue 1 #54 July 31, 2015 airdvr You'd have to be in a cave not to know at this point, regardless of right v. wrong, that it's a much better decision to comply with the requests of law enforcement personnel than it is to attempt escape. "Just lay back and think of other things while you get raped, it's better that way"cavete terrae. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Anvilbrother 0 #55 July 31, 2015 Your comebacks are worse than meek mills. Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along, Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dudeman17 339 #56 July 31, 2015 rehmwa ***I had a similar incident happen to me a while back. ....... He handed me back my license, and we both went on about our day, safe and sound. you need to stop talking about your 'actions' what you 'do' doesn't matter I can't even assess your story without three more pieces of info your race your political affiliation have you ever shot a lion only then may we judge you Are you trying to curtail my free speech rights? Are you racist? I'm a middle aged white guy and I got pulled over for not having a front license plate. My point was that I complied with the traffic stop and I did not get shot. People want to hold the officer accountable for his actions. I have no problem with that. But some people do not want to hold suspects accountable for theirs. I do have a problem with that. The suspect was not (presumably) being asked to get out of his car because he did not have a front plate, it was because he would not produce a license and had alcohol. The suspect did not get shot because he didn't have a front plate, it was because he was fleeing from the cops. The escalation was all on the suspect. No, I don't think the guy deserved to get shot, but if he had simply complied, he would not have been. Some people seem to think it's okay to just drive off from the cops? That's anarchy. My political affiliation is none of your business, and I have not shot any lions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeorgiaDon 362 #57 July 31, 2015 dudeman17 ******I had a similar incident happen to me a while back. ....... He handed me back my license, and we both went on about our day, safe and sound. you need to stop talking about your 'actions' what you 'do' doesn't matter I can't even assess your story without three more pieces of info your race your political affiliation have you ever shot a lion only then may we judge you Are you trying to curtail my free speech rights? Are you racist? I'm a middle aged white guy and I got pulled over for not having a front license plate. My point was that I complied with the traffic stop and I did not get shot. People want to hold the officer accountable for his actions. I have no problem with that. But some people do not want to hold suspects accountable for theirs. I do have a problem with that. The suspect was not (presumably) being asked to get out of his car because he did not have a front plate, it was because he would not produce a license and had alcohol. The suspect did not get shot because he didn't have a front plate, it was because he was fleeing from the cops. The escalation was all on the suspect. No, I don't think the guy deserved to get shot, but if he had simply complied, he would not have been. Some people seem to think it's okay to just drive off from the cops? That's anarchy. My political affiliation is none of your business, and I have not shot any lions.You're new here, aren't you? When you've been around a bit you will come to recognize, and hopefully even appreciate rehmwa's sense of humor. Don_____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #58 July 31, 2015 GeorgiaDonYou're new here, aren't you? When you've been around a bit you will come to recognize, and hopefully even appreciate rehmwa's sense of humor. Since I was being blatantly, obtusely, obviously blunt about the mockery of PC fanatics. Also, without any subtlety there. I choose to believe that Dudeman was also being wry and cynical and going along with the jest. A brother, so to speak, of the funny bone. P.S. (D-Man: I tend to advocate that actions are important, and the PC tendency of people to dismiss them in lieu of nonsense cosmetic differences and whiny excuses is a sore point with me. So my post was wry - your post had nothing but agreement from me. You need to read my post with a sarcastic tone and you'll get the drift that I was on your side). P.P.S. Oh, and the use of the phrase "D-Man" should also not be misconstrued either. Though it does have potential...... P.P.P.S. maybe the PPS was not needed and perhaps might aggravate the situation...or not ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeorgiaDon 362 #59 July 31, 2015 QuoteA brother, so to speak, of the funny bone. That would be cool. Have a great weekend, all. Don_____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skypuppy 1 #60 July 31, 2015 billvon>I said the guy was being antsy Well, there's your justification right there. Antsy people are dangerous, and a bullet to the head is really the only reasonable response. If you got that from my post, that says more about you than it does about what I wrote...If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead. Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skypuppy 1 #61 July 31, 2015 tkhayesI never said the cop 'did' any of those things. I am opening up a dialogue about the possibility of changing things so maybe fewer people die....and you are making assumptions about things that I said that i did not say. i am pretty clear on what I say and what I mean and i am also pretty clear about what I DO NOT mean.....again, i said I did not have all the answers. If you comprehension of what I say is limited, then that is your problem, not mine. Let me try that....."so what you are really saying is that all cops should be free to shoot black people in the head whenever they feel threatened". Not what you said, but could be the way I interpret it. so like I said, stop nitpicking and join the conversation. or don't. The scenario Georgia Don articulated here " Do you think people should have to have a driver's license at all to drive on public roads? If people do have to have a license, and this fellow did not have one on him, what should a cop do? Just let him drive off? Assume he has one but just forgot it at home? Around here, if you are stopped and don't have your license on you, you get a ticket and have to call someone to come and pick you up, you are not allowed to continue driving. It's a nuisance, if you did just forget your license, but what is the alternative (in your opinion). BTW if you did just forget your license you have to go to the sheriff or police station and show it and they will cancel the ticket, another inconvenience but preferable to the alternatives IMO. " is exactly what happened to my wife. She was pulled over for going 5 km/hr over the limit going down a hill, and ended up calling me to bring her paperwork. Are you saying she should have just driven away. Incidentally, I don't really see the guy being black as necessarily being relevant. My wife is white - she got pulled over and asked for paperwork. Are you saying if a white guy had acted the same way when pulled over the cop would have done something different? I don't see how. Yes, it may not have been smart to reach in the car, but once he did and the guy started moving, he was in danger...If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead. Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeorgiaDon 362 #62 July 31, 2015 Quoteit may not have been smart to reach in the car...AgreedQuote but once he did and the guy started moving, he was in danger... I don't agree, and that is not what I was saying. The video does not indicate his arm was in the car when it started moving, or that he was being dragged. Even if his arm was in the window it was not trapped and it would have been a simple move to pull back. Like all incidents, this one was the result of a series of decisions. I think the cop made reasonable decisions up until the point where the guy started to drive away. Others seem to think (as far as I can tell) that the bad decisions started with the decision to pull the guy over. I am a bit curious (or maybe just bored at work) about how not enforcing license laws (both vehicle and driver) is supposed to work out, aside from the fact that in this specific instance the guy would be alive and the cop wouldn't be in jail. I suspect that people don't really mean exactly what they are saying, they (like everybody) are just pissed off that incidents like this keep happening. Don_____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Anvilbrother 0 #63 July 31, 2015 If there had been a female duct taped in the trunk and the cop let him run and get away it would be a completely oposite dialog coming from some here. Also some departments are allowed lethal force towards a moving vehicle if they or another's life is in danger. As for being in danger it's the cops job to apprehend and stop criminals and criminal activities. Driving away and disobeying a cop is a criminal activity. A cop getting hung up in a door and having the driver not respond to commands of that vehicle could meet those use of force rules. Doubt the department had that rule as it is getting rarer, but people need to know pulling a weapon on someone who is fleeing or dragging a cop isn't out of the ordinary and justified in many places by LAW cops don't make law. Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along, Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 798 #64 July 31, 2015 He did not drag the cop, according to two other key witness. I'd think you'd believe even them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Anvilbrother 0 #65 July 31, 2015 Where did I say he was being dragged? I was making a point about some departments policies, and state laws allow what happened here to be justified. I never said he did, or they do, only that it isn't out of the realm of possibilities that somewhere this would be legal, and has been deemed legal many times before by LAW. Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along, Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dudeman17 339 #66 July 31, 2015 rehmwa Since I was being blatantly, obtusely, obviously blunt about the mockery of PC fanatics. Also, without any subtlety there. I choose to believe that Dudeman was also being wry and cynical and going along with the jest. A brother, so to speak, of the funny bone. P.S. (D-Man: I tend to advocate that actions are important, and the PC tendency of people to dismiss them in lieu of nonsense cosmetic differences and whiny excuses is a sore point with me. So my post was wry - your post had nothing but agreement from me. You need to read my post with a sarcastic tone and you'll get the drift that I was on your side). P.P.S. Oh, and the use of the phrase "D-Man" should also not be misconstrued either. Though it does have potential...... P.P.P.S. maybe the PPS was not needed and perhaps might aggravate the situation...or not That. I can be pretty dry myself sometimes. The longer paragraph in my reply was actually in response to some other posts, perhaps I should have noted that. P.P.P.P.S. We're starting to sound like Sylvester. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PkhPuH8G5Hg Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,990 #67 July 31, 2015 >P.P.P.P.S. We're starting to sound like Sylvester. PPPPPS. I'm doing SCIENCE and I'm still alive Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeorgiaDon 362 #68 July 31, 2015 Quote If there had been a female duct taped in the trunk and the cop let him run and get away it would be a completely oposite dialog coming from some here. What????That kind of "logic" could be used to justify killing anyone, any time. Don_____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,489 #69 July 31, 2015 skypuppy I didn't say point it at the guy, and I didn't say he was waving it around. I said the guy was being antsy, and his job was to get to the bottom of the situation, and get the guy out of the car... You said he may have drawn his gun in case he needed to enforce compliance. So, since the gun merely being drawn doesn't yet count as enforcing compliance, what would he have done with his gun to enforce compliance if not point it at the guy?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,489 #70 July 31, 2015 AnvilbrotherIf there had been a female duct taped in the trunk and the cop let him run and get away it would be a completely oposite dialog coming from some here. Not if there was no reason to believe he was a kidnapper. Just in case though, you'd better shoot the next few people you see driving and check their trunks. Better safe than sorry.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,990 #71 July 31, 2015 >If there had been a female duct taped in the trunk and the cop let him run and >get away it would be a completely oposite dialog coming from some here. Right. And if the cop had been a mass murderer wearing a uniform then all the pro-gun people here would have been saying "too bad the driver didn't have a gun - then he could have defended himself from this murderous thug!" But neither one happened, so it's kind of pointless. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Anvilbrother 0 #72 July 31, 2015 jakee***If there had been a female duct taped in the trunk and the cop let him run and get away it would be a completely oposite dialog coming from some here. Not if there was no reason to believe he was a kidnapper. Just in case though, you'd better shoot the next few people you see driving and check their trunks. Better safe than sorry. Yea right the headline would read "officer under investigation for failing to thoroughly investigate a traffic stop that lead to the death of XXX" Ever heard of cops letting people go for a DUI then have them end up killing someone in a crash? How did the public treat them for that mistake? Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along, Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skypuppy 1 #73 July 31, 2015 GeorgiaDon Quote If there had been a female duct taped in the trunk and the cop let him run and get away it would be a completely oposite dialog coming from some here. What????That kind of "logic" could be used to justify killing anyone, any time. Don not at all - it does however justify NOT ALLOWING THE DRIVER TO LEAVE without further investigation, which is what the cop was attempting to do.If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead. Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skypuppy 1 #74 July 31, 2015 jakee*** I didn't say point it at the guy, and I didn't say he was waving it around. I said the guy was being antsy, and his job was to get to the bottom of the situation, and get the guy out of the car... You said he may have drawn his gun in case he needed to enforce compliance. So, since the gun merely being drawn doesn't yet count as enforcing compliance, what would he have done with his gun to enforce compliance if not point it at the guy? If a cop was drawing a gun while interacting with me, that would be enforcing compliance. he doesn't have to point it at me. Merely putting his hand on it would reinforce to me that I'd better pay attention. The fact that the driver didn't pay attention is what led to the rest of the problem, IMO...If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead. Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 798 #75 August 1, 2015 Measurably better than the cops that murder civilians they interact with I'm sure. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
