More mass shootings

[Bob_Church 7]

DJL

***This thing about psych evals. Does anyone have any estimates on amount of time, that sort of thing? There are probably 200 million gun owners in the US, or we could go low and say 100 million. Are we really going to find trained professionals who would sign off on people being safe to own a gun? Or let some gun owner know that he's going to recommend that the government take all of his guns away? And after how much time with them? Originally the suggestion was that anyone who had a history of mental health problems wouldn't be able to own a gun.That has problems but it could be done. But now I'm hearing from several sources the idea of evaluating each person who owns a gun. We could get on that right after we count all the grains of sand on the Florida coast.

Could you imagine the court case against the shrink the first time someone kills a few people after he/she signed off on their eval. Nobody in the mental health community wants to do that and hold that liability. It's one thing to make a medical decision that someone should not own firearms, that's something that takes a long evaluation and probably proof of violent behavior. The opposite is not true. That would be like the saying of checking for crocodiles, you can only find that it is there, not that it isn't.

Exactly. And I suppose they could pass laws protecting them against lawsuits but still, the idea of spending a few hours with someone then giving a meaningful answer to the question "should this guy have a gun" is absurd. If you're a politician trying to make your constituents happy with bullshit then talking about it will help towards that end, but it will never be a useful tool against gun violence.

[airdvr 210]

JerryBaumchen

Hi airdvr,

Quote

It can be part of some federal budget somewhere.

I suggest an annual federal licensing fee of $5,000.00 per firearm that anyone owns.

Fiscal problem solved.

Jerry Baumchen

Another one who thinks the government can solve this problem. You can't legislate morality.

C'mon Jerry...you're an intelligent guy but these posts are moronic. How about some real world ideas.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[DJL 235]

airdvr

***Hi airdvr,

Quote

It can be part of some federal budget somewhere.

I suggest an annual federal licensing fee of $5,000.00 per firearm that anyone owns.

Fiscal problem solved.

Jerry Baumchen

Another one who thinks the government can solve this problem. You can't legislate morality.

C'mon Jerry...you're an intelligent guy but these posts are moronic. How about some real world ideas.

Such as what every other developed nation does who do not have the same quantity of mass shootings and gun violence as the United States?

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[billvon 2,991]

>I wonder why Americans are so divided?

Because of people like you. When you define half your country as the enemy, and call Russia's attacks against that same country as no big deal - just a partisan trick - then you divide the country.

"Now socialism is part of the Democrat Party, they call themselves Progressive Liberals. I still consider them the enemy."

[billvon 2,991]

>You can't legislate morality.

Of course you can. Murder and rape are illegal. You can't buy WMD's even if you'd only use them for good things. You have to insure your car even if you promise to never hit anyone. You can get a court order to keep your ex-husband away from you, even if he promises he will behave.

All of that legislates morality.


>C'mon Jerry...you're an intelligent guy but these posts are moronic. How about some real
>world ideas.

You JUST SAID - not ten posts ago - that we should take symbolic steps that don't really solve the problem, and avoid getting "mired" in real solutions.

So want to know why we're so averse to real world solutions? Look in the mirror.

[airdvr 210]

DJL

******Hi airdvr,

Quote

It can be part of some federal budget somewhere.

I suggest an annual federal licensing fee of $5,000.00 per firearm that anyone owns.

Fiscal problem solved.

Jerry Baumchen

Another one who thinks the government can solve this problem. You can't legislate morality.

C'mon Jerry...you're an intelligent guy but these posts are moronic. How about some real world ideas.

Such as what every other developed nation does who do not have the same quantity of mass shootings and gun violence as the United States?

Except that we're not every other country and if you approach it that way you won't get the job done. We're less than 200 years removed from the wild west and guns are a part of that society. They'll remain that way unless you convince these folks that you aren't trying to take their guns. Good luck with that.

Driving yesterday when I saw a truck with this sticker in the back window.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[airdvr 210]

billvon

>You can't legislate morality.

Of course you can. Murder and rape are illegal. You can't buy WMD's even if you'd only use them for good things. You have to insure your car even if you promise to never hit anyone. You can get a court order to keep your ex-husband away from you, even if he promises he will behave.

All of that legislates morality.


>C'mon Jerry...you're an intelligent guy but these posts are moronic. How about some real
>world ideas.

You JUST SAID - not ten posts ago - that we should take symbolic steps that don't really solve the problem, and avoid getting "mired" in real solutions.

So want to know why we're so averse to real world solutions? Look in the mirror.

You think that legislation is working? Why don't you kill someone? Why don't I? Because I know it to be morally wrong. I didn't get that from a law.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[billvon 2,991]

>You think that legislation is working?

Yes. When we increased the penalties for drunk driving, fatalities from drunk driving went down. When we legislated more safety equipment for cars, highway fatalities went down. The rape law reforms that occurred between 1970-1992 have decreased the incidence of rape.

Laws do actually work; that's why we have them.

Do most people need laws against murder and rape to keep them 'moral'? No; I'd wager that almost everyone here would not do that simply because they consider such things evil. However, if you are a horny and drunk 18 year old guy with loose morals, then knowing you could go to jail for 20 years for not taking "no" for an answer might sway your decisions. Likewise, knowing you could lose your license might push you towards taking an Uber home from the bar - even if you are "not really drunk."

[DJL 235]

Quote

Except that we're not every other country and if you approach it that way you won't get the job done. We're less than 200 years removed from the wild west and guns are a part of that society. They'll remain that way unless you convince these folks that you aren't trying to take their guns. Good luck with that.

The Wild West era was considered to be post Civil War to about 1900 (more recent than 200 years) but we're still also not so unique that we don't share the concept of having unique problems that we need to overcome regardless of our history. If we're so fucking awesome then how about we Cowboy Up and handle this. The cost of an illegal weapon in other countries is through the roof. That's what I call a real outcome.

The idea that we need guns because so many people have guns is ridiculous and the majority of proposals make every effort to keep guns in the hands of people who will use them responsibly and who only sell them to licensed people.

What is so difficult about that?

Even our assault weapon ban doesn't have to be a ban, let's just do what we did with machine guns and let time do it's work. The first legislation on machine guns was nearly 100 years ago and we rarely see a fully automatic weapon used to commit a crime or mass murder despite there being several hundred thousand of them legally owned.

What's so difficult classifying a high capacity mag, semi-auto, high(er) velocity chambered weapon the same as a machine gun? You haven't changed a SINGLE WORD of the 2nd Amendment by doing that.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[jakee 1,490]

RonD1120

Now socialism is part of the Democrat Party, they call themselves Progressive Liberals. I still consider them the enemy.

And that's why America is so divided.

It's your fault.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[wmw999 2,447]

Quote

Except that we're not every other country and if you approach it that way you won't get the job done. We're less than 200 years removed from the wild west and guns are a part of that society. They'll remain that way unless you convince these folks that you aren't trying to take their guns. Good luck with that.

We're not that fucking special.

What makes the gun owners more powerful than the non-gun-owners? Is it their willingness to use their guns to "defend their rights?" I understand the second amendment (I participate). But all the posturing just makes the gun owners look like assholes who are willing to threaten people for wanting to be able to worry less about immediate violence. And remember that rule -- never threaten someone with a gun if you're not willing to shoot them.

And to all the people who don't want any guns around? Well, there are people on the right who don't want any evidence of non-Christians, or homosexuality, etc. That doesn't work for them, and it doesn't work for you. This "guns are the new hammer in a world full of nails" approach is BS, but they do exist.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[JerryBaumchen 1,363]

Hi airdvr,

Quote

but these posts are moronic

Actually, I consider it less moronic than this:

Quote

It can be part of some federal budget somewhere.

Jerry Baumchen

[gowlerk 2,194]

Quote

C'mon Jerry...you're an intelligent guy but these posts are moronic. How about some real world ideas.

All your ideas seem to be about hardening targets. All that does is change the target selection. The "real world" solution is the one the rest of the world uses but America refuses.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[RonD1120 62]

billvon

>I wonder why Americans are so divided?

Because of people like you. When you define half your country as the enemy, and call Russia's attacks against that same country as no big deal - just a partisan trick - then you divide the country.

"Now socialism is part of the Democrat Party, they call themselves Progressive Liberals. I still consider them the enemy."

What do you think should be done with us?

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[wmw999 2,447]

Quote

What do you think should be done with us?

Continue to talk, engage, find things that we can care about in common, and vote our consciences. Time passes; some opinions change, some don't, and new generations change.

What do you think we should do -- isolate you forcibly? Prevent you from voting? The real America only works if we are part of it.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[DJL 235]

Quote

We're less than 200 years removed from the wild west and guns are a part of that society. They'll remain that way unless you convince these folks that you aren't trying to take their guns.

Can't believe I let this one slide. That's a dime novel version of Western Expansion, sure there was some bloodshed but there was also widespread recognition that unchecked gun possession was causing problems. The Ok Corral shootout was because Earp, a man who epitomizes a gun fighter in the Wild West, was enforcing a gun possession law in his town. The rest of that stuff is mostly cowboys and Indians BS from 1950's movies. They circled the wagons to keep the cattle from wandering, not because it was a great defense against Indians.

The "wild" in places like Dodge City was tamed when they formed their municipal governments and ban concealed carry and then open carry which resulted in a reduction in gun crime.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[DJL 235]

wmw999

Quote

What do you think should be done with us?

Continue to talk, engage, find things that we can care about in common, and vote our consciences. Time passes; some opinions change, some don't, and new generations change.

What do you think we should do -- isolate you forcibly? Prevent you from voting? The real America only works if we are part of it.

Wendy P.

And these are the kids today who will be making legislation tomorrow: http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/broward/article200906464.html Can we all agree that this young man, Anthony Borges, has earned the right to speak and to make his voice heard?

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[billvon 2,991]

>What do you think should be done with us?

"Done" with you? Nothing. The world is progressing; as a whole things are getting better. That's not always what some people want, but it's happening anyway, and it's a good thing. No reason to "do" anything with people who disagree - as long as they keep their objections in the form of words and not blades or bullets.

What _should_ you do? I'll let someone far wiser than myself do the work there.

================
You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also. And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two. Give to him who asks you, and from him who wants to borrow from you do not turn away.

You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.
================

[RonD1120 62]

Is this progress for a better country?

https://domestic-enemies.com/high-school-teacher-suspended-for-saying-he-supports-teachers-being-armed/

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[rushmc 23]

JerryBaumchen

Hi rush,

Normally, I do not waste my time responding to you. But, here goes:

Quote

this would completely comply with the 2nd amendment

Scares you doesn't it?

Jerry Baumchen

The only thing that scares me is idiotic opinions that will have no real effect in the end. By the way, did you know that no high-capacity magazines were used in the latest Florida shooting? Of course unless you call something that holds more than one high capacity then well you know

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[JoeWeber 2,720]

RonD1120

***>I wonder why Americans are so divided?

Because of people like you. When you define half your country as the enemy, and call Russia's attacks against that same country as no big deal - just a partisan trick - then you divide the country.

"Now socialism is part of the Democrat Party, they call themselves Progressive Liberals. I still consider them the enemy."

What do you think should be done with us?

Exactly what many here are so painstakingly attempting to do: wise your stubborn Christian ass up. You slay me, man. You're all goody two shoes about providing free mental health services to needy vets but hate socialism. You do it for free and then rely on the kindness of strangers for your plate of beans.

You want any weapon you personally deem necessary for your own protection without providing a scintilla of evidence for the need. And that's good enough to trump any one else's concerns about gun proliferation.

And then, by the by, ya'll don't forget that you are my enemies if, unfortunately, my fellow Americans while we're having this chat.

Ron, you have very weird views.

[billvon 2,991]

>Is this progress for a better country?

That particular incident isn't evidence in either direction, nor is it on the scale I was talking about. It's good that people are being WAY more careful about teachers (to avoid more incidents like this) but if it turns out he's stable, it's sad that he was suspended for just speaking his mind. However, if the direction "weed out the people who might become shooters" is really the only direction we can go, we are going to see more of this.

I am referring to the direction of society overall. In the past 300 years we have seen democracies come and flourish; freedom of religion and freedom of speech is now more the rule than the exception. In the past 200 years we saw slavery abolished. In the past 100 years we saw women get the right to vote. More recently we've seen blacks get the same rights as whites, gay people get the same rights as straight people, and women get the same rights as men. Violence against minorities (indeed, against _everyone_ is declining in the US.) With a few exceptions, rationality is overcoming fear and superstition. The standard of living is rising for most people in the US.

That's not to say we don't still have problems. Terrorism, a growing income gap that is stratifying our society, lingering prejudices against races, religions, sexual orientation and sexes are all things that are causing problems. But even those are getting better.

[DJL 235]

rushmc

***Hi rush,

Normally, I do not waste my time responding to you. But, here goes:

Quote

this would completely comply with the 2nd amendment

Scares you doesn't it?

Jerry Baumchen

The only thing that scares me is idiotic opinions that will have no real effect in the end. By the way, did you know that no high-capacity magazines were used in the latest Florida shooting? Of course unless you call something that holds more than one high capacity then well you know

Yes, he used 10 round magazines and has nearly 150 rounds total. It's suspected that his gun jammed but that's not yet confirmed.

Do you think the outcome would have been different if he could only get his hands on a bolt action rifle with a 4-bullet capacity?

Edit: Do you think the outcome would have been different if he has a machine gun?

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[billvon 2,991]

>Yes, he used 10 round magazines and has nearly 150 rounds total.

No doubt because those were the biggest magazines he could get. I am sure he felt burdened by having to swap magazines so often; why are the gun-grabbers trying to make it harder for people like this?

[Phil1111 1,149]

RonD1120

Is this progress for a better country?

https://domestic-enemies.com/high-school-teacher-suspended-for-saying-he-supports-teachers-being-armed/

As usual some of the sources of information you frequent change the facts to support a position.

These are the FACTS

"During his Feb. 22 class, students said, Locke was discussing the debate over teachers carrying guns in schools and two students said he wrote “I have the gun on a board. ”

Still, one student became visibly upset by that morning’s class and Locke was called to principal Dennis Perry’s office later that day, where he said his bag was searched. He was placed on administrative leave and ordered to undergo a physical and psychiatric evaluation.
http://www.philly.com/philly/education/cherry-hill-east-teacher-timothy-locke-school-shooting-comments-suspension-student-connection-20180303.html

So neither he nor his lawyer deny that during the course of a debate in class on arming teachers he wrote that statement on the blackboard. That he is armed.