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[turtlespeed 221]

Coreeece

*** if no modern interpretations are not needed

The specific quotes I listed do not need any interpretation - they are pretty specific.

turtlespeed

if no modern interpretations are not needed, why do so many different translations and versions exist?

Probably for money...but that hasn't really been much of an issue. All the translations I've compared don't show much variation and still convey the same message.

turtlespeed

2) Which version do you prescribe to?

I'm particular to the ESV. It's been compared as more of a poetic version of the NASB which is probably the most accurate literal translation. Dynamic equivalency translations like the NIV are primarily useful for more in-depth study.

turtlespeed

3) is that the original text from 2000 years ago, or is it a more modern, (+/- 500 years or so)

The earliest transcripts for revelation date back to around 250 A.D, but please note that that doesn't necessarily mean it wasn't copied from an earlier document. Scribes were charged with the responsibility of preserving scripture - which back then meant rewriting it over and over. I do believe however that old testament scribes were probably more formal and meticulous in their method than those rewriting new testament scripture.

turtlespeed

4) how do you explain the following?

Quote

Matthew 15:1-9
1 Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked,
2 "Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don't wash their hands before they eat!"
3 Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition?
4 For God said, 'Honor your father and mother' and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.'
5 But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God,'
6he is not to 'honor his father' with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition.
7You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:
8 " 'These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.
9 They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.'"

5). Do you really condone putting a child to death for cursing their parents?

Please note that the people Christ was speaking to were not children. They were adults that refused to help their parents. (v.5)

Honoring your father and mother is the 5th commandment. It is part of the Law. If one breaks any one part of the law at any one time, it is as if he breaks the entire law and is therefore condemned.

This is pretty much the basis for Christianity. We seek life by the grace of God that is found through Jesus Christ, rather than death through the Law.

Ok, so, say me . . . Cursing my father . . . You are saying that I should be put to death.

Or is there a more modern interpretation that should take place?

Maybe one of those turn the other cheek hypocrisies.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[GeorgiaDon 362]

Quote

Honoring your father and mother is the 5th commandment. It is part of the Law. If one breaks any one part of the law at any one time, it is as if he breaks the entire law and is therefore condemned.

What happens if your parent tells you to break one of the other commandments? For example, if they tell you steal something and give it to them, or to lie to cover for them because they did something bad? I guess you're just screwed then, you get stoned to death and go to hell if you do what they ask, and you get the same thing if you refuse?

What is a good Christian to do if your father or mother choose a spouse for you that you can't stand? If they choose a career for you that you absolutely hate? Does being a good Christian mean you get no say in how you live your life, unless you are so fortunate as to have parents who allow you to make your own choices?

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[christelsabine 1]

It's not the 5th, it's the 4th commandent. I told Coreeece by PM but, he decided not to answer.

For the thread, it's not important. For the bible lovers, it is embarassing.

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[Coreeece 2]

jakee

Ahhh, ok. I thought you meant that stuff was happening! sorry, my mistake

I must admit however, that when I see how economically dependent we have become on the rest of the world, I can't help but to think how we're headed in a direction that's more favorable to the idea of a universal government/currency that would then be more susceptible to the extremes we see represented in revelation, as apposed to...um...say, a United States who's economic and social structures were more autonomous.

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[Coreeece 2]

turtlespeed

****** if no modern interpretations are not needed

The specific quotes I listed do not need any interpretation - they are pretty specific.

turtlespeed

if no modern interpretations are not needed, why do so many different translations and versions exist?

Probably for money...but that hasn't really been much of an issue. All the translations I've compared don't show much variation and still convey the same message.

turtlespeed

2) Which version do you prescribe to?

I'm particular to the ESV. It's been compared as more of a poetic version of the NASB which is probably the most accurate literal translation. Dynamic equivalency translations like the NIV are primarily useful for more in-depth study.

turtlespeed

3) is that the original text from 2000 years ago, or is it a more modern, (+/- 500 years or so)

The earliest transcripts for revelation date back to around 250 A.D, but please note that that doesn't necessarily mean it wasn't copied from an earlier document. Scribes were charged with the responsibility of preserving scripture - which back then meant rewriting it over and over. I do believe however that old testament scribes were probably more formal and meticulous in their method than those rewriting new testament scripture.

turtlespeed

4) how do you explain the following?

Quote

Matthew 15:1-9
1 Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked,
2 "Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don't wash their hands before they eat!"
3 Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition?
4 For God said, 'Honor your father and mother' and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.'
5 But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God,'
6he is not to 'honor his father' with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition.
7You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:
8 " 'These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.
9 They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.'"

5). Do you really condone putting a child to death for cursing their parents?

Please note that the people Christ was speaking to were not children. They were adults that refused to help their parents. (v.5)

Honoring your father and mother is the 5th commandment. It is part of the Law. If one breaks any one part of the law at any one time, it is as if he breaks the entire law and is therefore condemned.

This is pretty much the basis for Christianity. We seek life by the grace of God that is found through Jesus Christ, rather than death through the Law.

Ok, so, say me . . . Cursing my father . . . You are saying that I should be put to death.

So who's gonna put you to death - another sinner who is equally condemned by the same sin, if not another?

It kinda goes back to the whole idea of whoever is without sin, cast the first stone...and then everyone walks away - just as they should.

From a Christian perspective, the wage of sin is death, and we all shall surely "die the death" - unless maybe you're without sin - but as far as I know, there has only been one without sin, and even He died.

Now, I don't mean to be such a downer, but I've already shared the upside, and you don't seem to be too interested that.

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[Coreeece 2]

GeorgiaDon

Quote

Honoring your father and mother is the 5th commandment. It is part of the Law. If one breaks any one part of the law at any one time, it is as if he breaks the entire law and is therefore condemned.

What happens if your parent tells you to break one of the other commandments? For example, if they tell you steal something and give it to them, or to lie to cover for them because they did something bad? I guess you're just screwed then, you get stoned to death and go to hell if you do what they ask, and you get the same thing if you refuse?

What is a good Christian to do if your father or mother choose a spouse for you that you can't stand? If they choose a career for you that you absolutely hate? Does being a good Christian mean you get no say in how you live your life, unless you are so fortunate as to have parents who allow you to make your own choices?

Don

The Jews back in biblical times along with several others in this thread had similar problems...kinda sad much hasn't changed. They'd ask questions like, what about this, what about that...they'd try to test Christ with questions about divorce, or try to trap him with questions about God vs Caesar, or whatever...nothing new, you know.

The Jews were certainly preoccupied with having lists of rules which subsequently lead to the development of the Mishnah which is basically like a dreaded 6000 page "humanistic" extension of laws upon laws upon laws of the Torah. Christ described it best - "They crush people with unbearable religious demands and never lift a finger to ease the burden."

Judaism along with practically every other religion, including Christianity/Catholicism is an external facade that allows one to ignore the internal condition of their own heart, soul, or whatever you want to call it.

One of my favorite examples of external religion vs internal reflection, is when Christ said, “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

So ya...maybe they didn't physically commit adultery, but maybe they wanted to...maybe they just imagined it...but that's the problem - We are fundamentally flawed - much like your question....which is why the parents in said question would dare force their will onto their children and ask them to lie, cheat and steal in the first place...

Futhermore:
Deuteronomy 24:16
The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[Coreeece 2]

christelsabine

It's not the 5th, it's the 4th commandent. I told Coreeece by PM but, he decided not to answer.

For the thread, it's not important. For the bible lovers, it is embarassing.

Perhaps in your religion it is the 4th commandment...who cares? Sin is sin and I wouldn't have beaten you over the head in some type of half-assed ignorant attempt to "embarrass" you on a public forum just because you didn't answer my PM...

My bible shows it as the 5th...so if you're catholic or something, then that's your problem, not mine...

If any one should be embarrassed, it's you...

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[christelsabine 1]

Coreeece

***It's not the 5th, it's the 4th commandent. I told Coreeece by PM but, he decided not to answer.

For the thread, it's not important. For the bible lovers, it is embarassing.

Perhaps in your religion it is the 4th commandment...who cares? Sin is sin and I wouldn't have beaten you over the head in some type of half-assed ignorant attempt to "embarrass" you on a public forum just because you didn't answer my PM...

My bible shows it as the 5th...so if you're catholic or something, then that's your problem, not mine...

If any one should be embarrassed, it's you...

Why should I? In my protestantic church, it's the 4th .... Should be easy for you to find out.

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[Coreeece 2]

christelsabine

******It's not the 5th, it's the 4th commandent. I told Coreeece by PM but, he decided not to answer.

For the thread, it's not important. For the bible lovers, it is embarassing.

Perhaps in your religion it is the 4th commandment...who cares? Sin is sin and I wouldn't have beaten you over the head in some type of half-assed ignorant attempt to "embarrass" you on a public forum just because you didn't answer my PM...

My bible shows it as the 5th...so if you're catholic or something, then that's your problem, not mine...

If any one should be embarrassed, it's you...

Why should I? In my protestantic church, it's the 4th .... Should be easy for you to find out.
m'kay, whatever...bless your heart.

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[wmw999 2,460]

There's an interesting article in Wikipedia on traditions for numbering the Trn Commandments. There's variation all over the place. And just like the recipe for spaghetti sauce (or anything else), I'm sure what one learned at home is right

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[GeorgiaDon 362]

Quote

The Jews back in biblical times along with several others in this thread had similar problems...kinda sad much hasn't changed. They'd ask questions like, what about this, what about that...they'd try to test Christ with questions about divorce, or try to trap him with questions about God vs Caesar, or whatever...nothing new, you know.

Why is it "kinda sad" to ask questions? Is it wrong to seek clarification when different "rules" require mutually incompatible responses? When correctly following one edict puts you in violation of a different one?

Quote

So ya...maybe they didn't physically commit adultery, but maybe they wanted to...maybe they just imagined it...but that's the problem...but that's the problem - We are fundamentally flawed -

And yet, according to your system of belief God created humans "in His image". Presumably we were created with a sex drive, at least if we were created without one then humans would never have got past Adam and Eve. And yet, when we respond to stimulation in the manner in which we were (according to your belief system) created, we are to be condemned? If you are tempted, and reject that temptation and instead choose not to act on the temptation, we are to be condemned the same as if we had acted? Why not go ahead and act, if we are to be condemned either way?

Quote

..but that's the problem - We are fundamentally flawed

I'd say the problem is that the version of religion you prefer is just a big mind fuck. We're condemned if we do. We're condemned if we don't. No matter what we do we are crap. But, maybe with enough abject supplication God will hold His nose and let us in.

It's all about control IMHO.


Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[RonD1120 62]

Body, soul and spirit make up the three parts of created man. The spirit seeks relationship with God. The body is the vessel. The battle is for the soul and takes place in the mind. The soul is comprised of the mind, emotions and will. When you focus on satisfying the flesh you take the focus off the spiritual relationship. That is the basis of sin, how you focus your will. The path of life to God is through Christ. Through Him your sin is forgiven. You cannot follow all the laws, rules, customs, traditions, folkways or mores by yourself to reach eternal life. Without Christ you will have eternal death with eternal consciousness.

ETA: Read through Romans 8

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[jakee 1,500]

Quote

I can't help but to think how we're headed in a direction that's more favorable to the idea of a universal government/currency that would then be more susceptible to the extremes we see represented in revelation,

Lol, let's not jump the gun there dude.

And hopefully there's nothing going on that makes you think you're about to be forcibly tattooed on your forehead

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Amazon 7]

wmw999

There's an interesting article in Wikipedia on traditions for numbering the Trn Commandments. There's variation all over the place. And just like the recipe for spaghetti sauce (or anything else), I'm sure what one learned at home is right

Wendy P.

I have been turning the organic heirloom tomatoes into the best tomato sauce for the last month so that I will have concentrated as many of them down into future spaghetti dinners, chili dinners and other recipies.
The fresh chillies we have had for the last 3 months have been awesome, but I grew so many huge Cherokee purples, San Marinos and the best tasting of all Mr Stripeys, that I went into waste not want not mode and started preserving all that sweet tasty sauce for the off season.

[turtlespeed 221]

Coreeece

***

Quote

Honoring your father and mother is the 5th commandment. It is part of the Law. If one breaks any one part of the law at any one time, it is as if he breaks the entire law and is therefore condemned.

What happens if your parent tells you to break one of the other commandments? For example, if they tell you steal something and give it to them, or to lie to cover for them because they did something bad? I guess you're just screwed then, you get stoned to death and go to hell if you do what they ask, and you get the same thing if you refuse?

What is a good Christian to do if your father or mother choose a spouse for you that you can't stand? If they choose a career for you that you absolutely hate? Does being a good Christian mean you get no say in how you live your life, unless you are so fortunate as to have parents who allow you to make your own choices?

Don

The Jews back in biblical times along with several others in this thread had similar problems...kinda sad much hasn't changed. They'd ask questions like, what about this, what about that...they'd try to test Christ with questions about divorce, or try to trap him with questions about God vs Caesar, or whatever...nothing new, you know.

The Jews were certainly preoccupied with having lists of rules which subsequently lead to the development of the Mishnah which is basically like a dreaded 6000 page "humanistic" extension of laws upon laws upon laws of the Torah. Christ described it best - "They crush people with unbearable religious demands and never lift a finger to ease the burden."

Judaism along with practically every other religion, including Christianity/Catholicism is an external facade that allows one to ignore the internal condition of their own heart, soul, or whatever you want to call it.

One of my favorite examples of external religion vs internal reflection, is when Christ said, “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

So ya...maybe they didn't physically commit adultery, but maybe they wanted to...maybe they just imagined it...but that's the problem - We are fundamentally flawed - much like your question....which is why the parents in said question would dare force their will onto their children and ask them to lie, cheat and steal in the first place...

Futhermore:
Deuteronomy 24:16
The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

That seems like a modern interpretation of ever I saw one.
What happened to just reading the 2000 year old book and applying the exact words as they are written?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[yoink 321]

turtlespeed

That seems like a modern interpretation of ever I saw one.
What happened to just reading the 2000 year old book and applying the exact words as they are written?

They prove to be wrong too often if you do that. Gotta give yourself some wriggle-room for doomsday prophecies, man! Otherwise you'll never be able to shift the goalposts...

[RonD1120 62]

turtlespeed

That seems like a modern interpretation of ever I saw one.
What happened to just reading the 2000 year old book and applying the exact words as they are written?

Excellent idea, start with John 3:16; John 14:6 and Romans 10:13.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[turtlespeed 221]

RonD1120

***

That seems like a modern interpretation of ever I saw one.
What happened to just reading the 2000 year old book and applying the exact words as they are written?

Excellent idea, start with John 3:16; John 14:6 and Romans 10:13.

Produce the original and I will.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[normiss 806]

Now you're trying to piss off the king!

[Coreeece 2]

wmw999

There's an interesting article in Wikipedia on traditions for numbering the Trn Commandments. There's variation all over the place. And just like the recipe for spaghetti sauce (or anything else), I'm sure what one learned at home is right

Wendy P.

Ya, well Christel is the one who has the problem with it, so maybe you should take that up with her...

...but then again, it's like talking to a brick wall, so I understand.

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[Coreeece 2]

GeorgiaDon

Quote

The Jews back in biblical times along with several others in this thread had similar problems...kinda sad much hasn't changed. They'd ask questions like, what about this, what about that...they'd try to test Christ with questions about divorce, or try to trap him with questions about God vs Caesar, or whatever...nothing new, you know.

Why is it "kinda sad" to ask questions? Is it wrong to seek clarification when different "rules" require mutually incompatible responses? When correctly following one edict puts you in violation of a different one?

I suppose there is nothing sad if the questions are sincere, but in most instances it's just contemptuous trolling - but to be clear - I wouldn't put you in that lot, which is why I tried to give at least a minimal effort in my reply to you...

GeorgiaDon

Quote

So ya...maybe they didn't physically commit adultery, but maybe they wanted to...maybe they just imagined it...but that's the problem...but that's the problem - We are fundamentally flawed -

And yet, according to your system of belief God created humans "in His image".

Right, and that perfection included a choice and the knowledge of good and evil, but unlike God, we find pleasure in certain types of evil - and that has negatively affected us exponentially throughout our history.

GeorgiaDon

Presumably we were created with a sex drive, at least if we were created without one then humans would never have got past Adam and Eve. And yet, when we respond to stimulation in the manner in which we were (according to your belief system) created, we are to be condemned?

I would venture to guess that most of us are sexual deviants, but believe it or not, there are people who respond in a manner that is acceptable to God.

GeorgiaDon

If you are tempted, and reject that temptation and instead choose not to act on the temptation, we are to be condemned the same as if we had acted? Why not go ahead and act, if we are to be condemned either way?

Most people, like yourself miss the point and do exactly that...

GeorgiaDon

Quote

..but that's the problem - We are fundamentally flawed

I'd say the problem is that the version of religion you prefer is just a big mind fuck. We're condemned if we do. We're condemned if we don't. No matter what we do we are crap. But, maybe with enough abject supplication God will hold His nose and let us in.

That's kind of a negative perspective on grace if you ask me...but whatever.

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[Coreeece 2]

jakee

Quote

I can't help but to think how we're headed in a direction that's more favorable to the idea of a universal government/currency that would then be more susceptible to the extremes we see represented in revelation,

Lol, let's not jump the gun there dude.

And hopefully there's nothing going on that makes you think you're about to be forcibly tattooed on your forehead

You'd think that if you were to use the laughing emoji, you'd come up with a better "zinger" than that...

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[Coreeece 2]

turtlespeed

That seems like a modern interpretation of ever I saw one.
What happened to just reading the 2000 year old book and applying the exact words as they are written?

Actually, we were just having a discussion rather than post-whoring lame one-liners all day...

btw, please stop asking me stupid questions that I've already addressed.

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[jakee 1,500]

Quote

You'd think that if you were to use the laughing emoji, you'd come up with a better "zinger" than that...

It's not a zinger. The idea that there are people believing that will happen is genuinely hilarious.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[kallend 2,030]

Coreeece

***

Quote

The Jews back in biblical times along with several others in this thread had similar problems...kinda sad much hasn't changed. They'd ask questions like, what about this, what about that...they'd try to test Christ with questions about divorce, or try to trap him with questions about God vs Caesar, or whatever...nothing new, you know.

Why is it "kinda sad" to ask questions? Is it wrong to seek clarification when different "rules" require mutually incompatible responses? When correctly following one edict puts you in violation of a different one?

I suppose there is nothing sad if the questions are sincere, but in most instances it's just contemptuous trolling - but to be clear - I wouldn't put you in that lot, which is why I tried to give at least a minimal effort in my reply to you...

GeorgiaDon

Quote

So ya...maybe they didn't physically commit adultery, but maybe they wanted to...maybe they just imagined it...but that's the problem...but that's the problem - We are fundamentally flawed -

And yet, according to your system of belief God created humans "in His image".

Right, and that perfection included a choice and the knowledge of good and evil, but unlike God, we find pleasure in certain types of evil - and that has negatively affected us exponentially throughout our history.



So, being unlike God, we really aren't in his image at all.

And I fail to see what e^x has to do with it.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.