tkhayes 348 #26 September 2, 2015 the richer are getting richer and at a faster pace. So much for trickle down right-wing economics. [sarcasm] Solution? Blame the poor and tell them to get off their lazy asses and get rich [/sarcasm] Are are you advocating that the government do something 'socialistic' to stop the gap from growing any further? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 221 #27 September 2, 2015 billvon>I never said it was a piece of cake, but it IS legal, and it is possible. Not for 99.9% of immigrants. That's why we have an illegal immigration problem - because it is effectively impossible for an average farm worker to come here legally and work. >If the immigration laws were followed and enforced, 11 million illegals would >not be here to be poor, and thus the gap would be less. Ah. "Eliminate the poor." I guess that's one solution. Not as effective, though, as just taxing the rich until they aren't so rich; that's a much more effective solution if social engineering is your thing. >>>what is so wrong with enforcing the laws? Like I said in the second post of this thread - if you want to solve the problem of the wide gap between rich and poor, providing a legal path for citizenship is one way to do it. If you don't want to solve that problem, that's fine too. >>>there is a system in place, it has ALREADY been provided? Is it perfect, no. Is it even remotely effective? Probably not. Should it be changed, updated, modified, and improved? Hell Yes! That does not, however give anyone the right to ignore the law and refuse to enforce it. (Or do what the OP does - just oppose all such solutions and then blame Obama for it.) >>> SMH I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,006 #28 September 2, 2015 >what is so wrong with enforcing the laws? Nothing. And if you are OK with the growing rich/poor divide, then no need to change them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Anvilbrother 0 #29 September 2, 2015 billvonIf you are OK with the growing rich/poor divide, then no need to change them. Where did he say that? Has anyone here said that? Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along, Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #30 September 2, 2015 turtlespeed***>Immigration IS legal. There are 11 million illegal immigrants in the US. A big chunk of those very poor people the original post referred to are illegal immigrants, because being an illegal immigrant means you make far less money on average. If you want to solve the problem of the huge disparity between rich and poor, providing all those illegal immigrants with a path to legal citizenship will help that happen. >There is a process in place to lawfully enter this country. Not for 99.9% of the people trying to come here - or the people living here illegally now. Yes there is. Apply, do your homework, and follow the law. I never said it was a piece of cake, but it IS legal, and it is possible. If the immigration laws were followed and enforced, 11 million illegals would not be here to be poor, and thus the gap would be less. So, following the existing laws is another way to eliminate a large portion of that gap you speak of. We can't even get those born here to do that. Friday night football is far more important and the parties afterward???? "What difference – at this point, what difference does it make?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Anvilbrother 0 #31 September 2, 2015 Just like hillary make a joke out of a serious situation. Thankfully her followers are starting to notice how she is flippantly disregarding some serious issues. Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along, Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,006 #32 September 3, 2015 >Just like hillary make a joke out of a serious situation. Must be why she is happier than all her attackers, to steal a BillyVance quote. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bolas 5 #33 September 3, 2015 tkhayes the richer are getting richer and at a faster pace. So much for trickle down right-wing economics. [sarcasm] Solution? Blame the poor and tell them to get off their lazy asses and get rich [/sarcasm] Are are you advocating that the government do something 'socialistic' to stop the gap from growing any further? If by socialistic you mean addressing the immigration issues, yes. Enforce the existing laws. Deportation for the illegals and their children and massive fines for companies and those they're contracting employment services for as well. Now those currently on assistance can work those jobs the illegals were doing which gets them off assistance and improves the economy too. Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,006 #34 September 3, 2015 >Now those currently on assistance can work those jobs the illegals were doing . . . No one wants to. During big deportation waves in specific states, the crops rot in the field, and farmers lose their farms. The cost of food goes up as does unemployment. Tax revenue goes down, and governments must raise taxes on other industries to compensate. Sort of a lose-lose. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 348 #35 September 3, 2015 except that their children are US citizens quite often. Are you all for deporting Americans? Are you so hatred of immigrants that you would even deport people born in the country with citizen rights under the US Constitution? How very right wing of you.... You and Glenn Beck, Trump and Limbaugh have a lot in common. Like...being dead wrong. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brenthutch 444 #36 September 3, 2015 billvon> H1B visas put downward pressure on computer programmers in the same way >low skill immigrants put downward pressure on construction laborers. Right. Rather than bring jobs here via H1B's, much better to send those jobs to India and China. Two sides of the same coin. Cheap labor, be it domestic, international, legal or illegal, drives down wages. The more mobile the jobs and the labor, the more pronounced the effect. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,006 #37 September 3, 2015 > Cheap labor, be it domestic, international, legal or illegal, drives down wages. Sort of a circular definition, but OK. And as a result, US products are more competitive, and fewer jobs are exported to other countries. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bolas 5 #38 September 3, 2015 tkhayesexcept that their children are US citizens quite often. Are you all for deporting Americans? Are you so hatred of immigrants that you would even deport people born in the country with citizen rights under the US Constitution? How very right wing of you.... You and Glenn Beck, Trump and Limbaugh have a lot in common. Like...being dead wrong. I don't hate immigrants. Illegals OTOH I do have a problem with as I do anyone who breaks laws repeatedly and uses loopholes such anchor babies as the reason they should be allowed to continue to break the law. The children as U.S. Citizens would be allowed to stay, but most children tend to go where their parents do. One has to wonder what percentage of the current Latino population in this country are illegal and what percentage of the legal citizens parents or grandparents were illegal.Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 348 #39 September 3, 2015 One has to wonder if your family had illegals back when as well... If you are all for the children staying, but not the parents, I assume then you will be lining up for adoption? Such oversimplification of complex problems Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bolas 5 #40 September 3, 2015 billvon>Now those currently on assistance can work those jobs the illegals were doing . . . No one wants to. During big deportation waves in specific states, the crops rot in the field, and farmers lose their farms. The cost of food goes up as does unemployment. Tax revenue goes down, and governments must raise taxes on other industries to compensate. Sort of a lose-lose. Well sure it's going to be hard to get people to do a job when you're giving a large potential workforce of citizens money for doing nothing and they're not going to take a job for less than minimum wage in unsafe working conditions. Agri-business's and others need to either start paying wages that will attract legal workers or automate. Employing illegals for less than minimum wages in non compliant work environments is a crutch that needs to go.Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,006 #41 September 3, 2015 >Agri-business's and others need to either start paying wages that will attract >legal workers or automate. Paying significantly higher wages = higher food prices, faster inflation, more malnutrition in the US. Automate = more unemployment, larger rich/poor divide. There are no easy answers. >Employing illegals for less than minimum wages in non compliant work >environments is a crutch that needs to go. I agree. Make them legal and give them the power to improve their own work environments and pay. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wolfriverjoe 1,523 #42 September 3, 2015 Bolas***>Now those currently on assistance can work those jobs the illegals were doing . . . No one wants to. During big deportation waves in specific states, the crops rot in the field, and farmers lose their farms. The cost of food goes up as does unemployment. Tax revenue goes down, and governments must raise taxes on other industries to compensate. Sort of a lose-lose. Well sure it's going to be hard to get people to do a job when you're giving a large potential workforce of citizens money for doing nothing and they're not going to take a job for less than minimum wage in unsafe working conditions. Agri-business's and others need to either start paying wages that will attract legal workers or automate. Employing illegals for less than minimum wages in non compliant work environments is a crutch that needs to go. If you can come up with an automated way to harvest certain crops (tree crops are a big one), you will become very, very rich. A lot of people have been trying a long time to do that. And if you go to an employment office and offer minimum wage (or even something above it) for picking crops that can't be automated, you will either get a tiny response, or a workforce that picks very slowly. Migrant farmworkers usually operate on a "piecework" basis. Paid per amount picked. The harder you work, the more you make. Wages well above minimum are attainable, but it involves a lot of work. Traditionally, most people don't want to do the work. Another good example is meatpacking/slaughterhouse work. It pays well above minimum, but is mostly immigrants (and a lot of illegals). Anyone willing to do the work can get hired. Very few people who can find a different job (because they are legal) want to work there. It's a very hard, unpleasant job to do. Paying non-immigrant (legal or illegal) labor enough to actually get a functional workforce would drive food costs through the roof. But that's reality. A lot more complicated and full of problems that are a lot more difficult to solve than "Just deport all the illegals.""There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Anvilbrother 0 #43 September 3, 2015 Lower the entry requirements if you must I would LOVE to have some more tax payers. But.. You get a SSN, Id card, have to pay taxes, have to pass a basic test of laws, and be able to speak and read English. There was a Hispanic guy at the coin star machine(takes in your loose change for dollars for a fee)Saturday that had to have me do his transaction and point him to the register to redeem his money because it had English only instructions. How is this person following rules and laws in the US like that? No welfare eligibility for a probationary time of one year verified residence in the us. Show me you have tried to make it without handouts. Some sort of rules that if it is deemed you are a career criminal or a drain on the system you don't get to stay. Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along, Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Anvilbrother 0 #44 September 3, 2015 Have you seen the new logging equipment? It grabs the tree, cuts it down, rotates it horizontally de limbs it, cuts it to length, and stacks it in a pile for the loader. One person and it does it in about 30 seconds. Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along, Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,006 #45 September 3, 2015 >You get a SSN, Id card, have to pay taxes, have to pass a basic test of laws, >and be able to speak and read English. I'd agree with most of that, assuming the "read English" was a very basic test of English (stop signs, emergency exits etc.) And I assume by "ID card" you mean a driver's license or SS card or something. I mean, I certainly don't have a "US ID" card, nor have I ever needed one. >There was a Hispanic guy at the coin ?star machine(takes in your loose change >for dollars for a fee)Saturday that had to have me do his transaction and point >him to the register to redeem his money because it had English only >instructions. How is this person following rules and laws in the US like that? Same way I follow laws and rules in Korea, China, Holland and Finland I imagine (to name the last five countries I was in where I didn't speak the language and yet somehow managed to follow the rules and laws - and even navigate the Seoul subway system) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bolas 5 #46 September 3, 2015 billvon I agree. Make them legal and give them the power to improve their own work environments and pay. So you're for not only not enforcing existing laws, but rewarding those that break the law? Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bolas 5 #47 September 3, 2015 wolfriverjoe******>Now those currently on assistance can work those jobs the illegals were doing . . . No one wants to. During big deportation waves in specific states, the crops rot in the field, and farmers lose their farms. The cost of food goes up as does unemployment. Tax revenue goes down, and governments must raise taxes on other industries to compensate. Sort of a lose-lose. Well sure it's going to be hard to get people to do a job when you're giving a large potential workforce of citizens money for doing nothing and they're not going to take a job for less than minimum wage in unsafe working conditions. Agri-business's and others need to either start paying wages that will attract legal workers or automate. Employing illegals for less than minimum wages in non compliant work environments is a crutch that needs to go. If you can come up with an automated way to harvest certain crops (tree crops are a big one), you will become very, very rich. A lot of people have been trying a long time to do that. And if you go to an employment office and offer minimum wage (or even something above it) for picking crops that can't be automated, you will either get a tiny response, or a workforce that picks very slowly. Migrant farmworkers usually operate on a "piecework" basis. Paid per amount picked. The harder you work, the more you make. Wages well above minimum are attainable, but it involves a lot of work. Traditionally, most people don't want to do the work. Another good example is meatpacking/slaughterhouse work. It pays well above minimum, but is mostly immigrants (and a lot of illegals). Anyone willing to do the work can get hired. Very few people who can find a different job (because they are legal) want to work there. It's a very hard, unpleasant job to do. Paying non-immigrant (legal or illegal) labor enough to actually get a functional workforce would drive food costs through the roof. But that's reality. A lot more complicated and full of problems that are a lot more difficult to solve than "Just deport all the illegals." There likely is already an automated or more automated solution for most jobs illegals are doing. It's just not cost effective at the current labor rates. This really isn't a complicated issue, but it would initially be painful, perhaps moreso by some groups intentionally in hopes to change back. This would be a huge step towards equality for all citizens in terms of new job opportunities and improved working conditions for all businesses.Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Anvilbrother 0 #48 September 3, 2015 We're you there to stay for good, raise a family have a functioning lifestyle, grow to expand your wealth and improve your environment? Without knowing the language I find it very hard to believe they can do it successfully and integrate themselves witha he others that live here. My wife speaks Spanish and I can't tell you the number of times a Hispanic person has faked not knowing english to avoid situations where they did not want to talk to someone. Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along, Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brenthutch 444 #49 September 3, 2015 billvon >Employing illegals for less than minimum wages in non compliant work >environments is a crutch that needs to go. I agree. Make them legal and give them the power to improve their own work environments and pay. A wise man once said: "Paying significantly higher wages = higher food prices, faster inflation, more malnutrition in the US." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 348 #50 September 3, 2015 QuoteA wise man once said: "Paying significantly higher wages = higher food prices, faster inflation, more malnutrition in the US." that may have been said but it has never come to be during ANY minimum wage increase ever in the USA. Not ever. I prefer basing decisions on reality, not some fictional quote from 'some wise man'. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
