billvon 2,998 #126 October 1, 2015 >If that's true, why are non governmental antidiscrimination laws needed at all? What are nongovernmental laws? >Those that choose to be discriminatory, once word gets out about them are >generally finished. No, often they do _better._ Again, in the 1950's, diners that excluded blacks did better than diners that allowed blacks. "Whites only" was perceived as a higher class of diner. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
richravizza 28 #127 October 1, 2015 billvon>A great law that allows us to be responsible for our cars and the >environment.Giving us freedom,knowledge and Choice. >That whole concept been CORRUPTED, again by big Gov't. So government passes a law requiring OBD II and Volkswagen violates that law for profit. And your conclusion is that Big Government has corrupted the process. >Our C.A.R.B.officials allow the Manufactures to break the Law,if they... >"PAY THE FINES" >Tens of Millions.Every year.I'd call it Bribery,others a fine. Fines are common penalties for everything from parking tickets to speeding tickets to zoning violations to environmental violations to fraud. BP was fined $4 billion for its recent oil spill, for example. Do you believe that all those fines are an example of bribery? >Well you bought it,you payed.But it ain't over yet,when that pesky check >Engine light comes on, what'll most people do? >Nothing,because they know the options are limited and the price non >competitive. So government passes a law requiring OBD II and Volkswagen violates that law for profit. And your conclusion is that Big Government has corrupted the process. Absolutely, Don't you see? VW didn't profit from breaking CARB laws, Carb did. VW profits come from customers.CARB just insures exorbitant profits. If CARB was truly interested in the Environment. Fines would not be issued. Non-complient Autos would be Verboten in CA. Posing a major problem for the Brands, losing market share and Profits. All would follow the 22 yr.old law. Who paid the Fines?,the Customer,Not VW. Why has every other manufacturer been Carb compliment? Mercedes Benz,Porche,Audi,BMW and lowly VW see the pattern$? < BP was fined $4 billion for its recent oil spill, for examDo you believe that all those fines are an example of bribery? Absolutely Not. Loss of Life,and Negligence and neglect,not the same as... Creating a law with the intention, of allowing High end cars to Violate it, simply because of revenue. THIS Is Corruption. How fast,would the manufacturers make their Cars compliant,if they lost the entire California market? LOL Yup, they get the shaft as soon as the pull up to the Dealer. Because, The State has Limited Competition by allowing the Law to be Broken.Allowing monopolist buisness practices to flourish and the bribe money to flow. or, They can't afford monopoly prices for repairs,and continue to pollute the environment. Is that the intent of CARB and our laws? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,500 #128 October 1, 2015 QuoteLook at what happened with the Wedding cake bakery. Yeah, they still run their business and they're half a million bucks richer. QuoteNo need for a law. Odd conclusion...Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bolas 5 #129 October 1, 2015 billvon >If that's true, why are non governmental antidiscrimination laws needed at all? What are nongovernmental laws? >Those that choose to be discriminatory, once word gets out about them are >generally finished. No, often they do _better._ Again, in the 1950's, diners that excluded blacks did better than diners that allowed blacks. "Whites only" was perceived as a higher class of diner. Arguments can be made either way that the civil rights legislation was necessary, but the largest argument for it was mostly economic as the African Americans did not have the purchasing power or voice to affect change economically. On the flipside, those that ran businesses may have felt economic pressure to be "Whites Only" possibly against their personal beliefs. With LGBT, this is not the case. As a "protected class" they have huge purchasing power and equally large voice. One could easily argue that there is no economic reason to not work with that market, alienating them is a bad business decision. So, the argument basically comes down to legislating thoughts and behaviors vs. letting the market decide. Besides, if corporations/businesses can be people and have religion, and people are sometimes sexist, racist, homophobic, then... Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,998 #130 October 1, 2015 >If CARB was truly interested in the Environment. >Fines would not be issued. >Non-complient car would be Verboten in CA. And that would be the equivalent of fining every VW owner in CA (or the US) tens of thousands of dollars. Most people don't have tens of thousands of dollars lying around. When it comes to "who to fine" I think the company who violated the law should be the one penalized, rather than consumers who bought the car in good faith. >Why has every other manufacturer been Carb compliment? Because they want to sell cars and avoid fines and other penalties. >Absolutely Not. Loss of Life,and damage due Negligence So you agree with fining BP because they caused a lot of pollution via an oil spill, but not with fining VW because they caused a lot of pollution due to fraud? >How fast,would the manufacturers make their Cars compliant,if they lose >their entire California market? Almost all manufacturers have done exactly that. Why? Due to the threat of fines. VW rolled the dice and figured they'd never get caught. They did - and now have to pay billions. How fast do you think other car manufacturers, thinking of skirting the law, will change their minds after they see VW get an $18 billion fine, and be required to recall and repair ~400,000 cars? >or, They can't afford monopoly prices for repairs,and continue to pollute the >environment. Is that the intent of CARB and our laws? Nope. One of the intents of CARB is to reduce automotive emissions in California. And it has succeeded in that, as anyone who was in LA in the 1970's knows. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #131 October 1, 2015 Great reasoning there (assuming I interpreted your garbled prose correctly). Clearly, following the same logic, government regulations encouraged Ford to build Pintos with exploding gas tanks.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
richravizza 28 #132 October 1, 2015 HERE we'll agree.HELL NO, they were legally purchased in CA with the state bribe money, $?blessing/fine.Who would issue the fine, the same crooked CARB. that allowed these cars to be sold. I want theses cooks out of consumers wallets. American and Japanese Car companies follow the Law. German Co. have higher profit margin,pay the fine make it bacK many times over by the State approved anti-competitive business practices. I Do Hope VW pays dearly and BP didn't pay enough. You are getting Two subjects confused: OBD 2 is a20+ yr old emissions Law,a Corrupted CARB cash Cow. The VW fraud,may have been found 20 yrs Ago,had VW conformed with the Law. and So your OK with Porsche, MBZ Audi and VW to continue to Sell non complient cars in CA, as long as CARB gets PAID. Is this the SOCIALISM you seek? Completely Blind of its corruption? Next Cap and Trade. LOL Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
richravizza 28 #133 October 1, 2015 I think your reaching. If the NTSB (carb)enacted a mandatory seat belt law,for every car sold in CA. Then... Ford was able to Pay the NTSB to not installing seats belts for the last 20 yrs.then, you'll have a correct analogy. (assuming I interpreted your garbled prose correctly). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,998 #134 October 2, 2015 >HELL NO, they were legally purchased in CA with the state bribe money So you can't just ban the cars. That's equivalent to fining VW owners the cost of the car. >OBD 2 is a20+ yr old emissions Law,a Corrupted CARB cash Cow. You previously said that it was "a great law that allows us to be responsible for our cars and the environment.Giving us freedom,knowledge and Choice" ! OBD II is a technical standard that calls out the pinout of the connector and the signals that the connector provides. It also provides some of the protocols and recommended reporting of parameters. It's not a law or a cash cow or an emissions standard. It does not give you freedom or knowledge or choice. Most people don't even know where their OBD II connector is. It simply allows a standard way to connect a diagnostic instrument to a car. That's all it is. Many states have used it to IMPLEMENT emissions standards. Basically saying "if the car reports everything is working, we will assume it meets its emissions specifications." OBD II makes this easier - provided people are not intentionally spoofing the system as VW was. >and So your OK with Porsche, MBZ Audi and VW to continue to Sell non >complient cars in CA, as long as CARB gets PAID. Nope. I expect VW to fix the problem, and I expect the government to penalize them (via fines, sales bans and jail time if needed) the more they delay that. >Is this the SOCIALISM you seek? If you mean holding companies that break the law accountable, requiring adherence to emissions limits and protecting consumers from fraudulent actions by greedy companies - yes, I am all for seeking that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,998 #135 October 2, 2015 >If the NTSB (carb)enacted a mandatory seat belt law,for every car sold in CA. >Then... >Ford was able to Pay the NTSB to not installing seats belts for the last 20 >yrs.then, you'll have a correct analogy. You keep equating fines to "able to break the law." Tell me, if your friend cheated on his taxes and underpaid by $50,000, and the IRS fined him $200,000 for his deceit once they caught him, would you claim that "he is paying the IRS to let him cheat on his taxes?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #136 October 2, 2015 Your logic is: LGBT is a protected class (under the law) Because they are a protected class they have huge purchasing power Becuase they have huge purchasing power, they don't need to be a protected class. A bit flawed, don't you think? - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bolas 5 #137 October 2, 2015 DanGYour logic is: LGBT is a protected class (under the law) Because they are a protected class they have huge purchasing power Becuase they have huge purchasing power, they don't need to be a protected class. A bit flawed, don't you think? I think all legal residents, regardless of DNA deserve equal rights when dealing with the government. I don't however believe that should be extended to private businesses or citizens nor in this day and age is it needed.Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
richravizza 28 #138 October 2, 2015 Wow, I'm just lost by your deflection of the subject. I never said "BAN' or in any way, should the customer pay. They've been victimized by the State and VW. So the shady,greedy Company is still allowed to sell Non- compliant Cars in Ca and all with the state blessing and a donation. Nope, Please reread my previous post, OBD is a Standardize system, not just a Connector. So How did the State protect the consumers from VW? By giving VW and the others a monopolistic advantage to the manufacturer that pays the fine? How did the fines help the consumer? Catalytic Converters are now under State CARB Control,thats worked out great. Another WIN for revenue. The price of a CARB approved Cat. Twice as expensive as any other State. What's the difference? Nothing,but a $700. Stamp, helping the consumers of CA.,one Pump at a time. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,500 #139 October 2, 2015 richravizzasales bans and jail time if needed) the more they delay that. So the shady,greedy Company is still allowed to sell Non- compliant Cars in Ca and all with the state blessing and a donation. Ummmm, you're not reading too closely, are you?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #140 October 2, 2015 Bolas***Your logic is: LGBT is a protected class (under the law) Because they are a protected class they have huge purchasing power Becuase they have huge purchasing power, they don't need to be a protected class. A bit flawed, don't you think? I think all legal residents, regardless of DNA deserve equal rights when dealing with the government. I don't however believe that should be extended to private businesses or citizens nor in this day and age is it needed. It isn't extended to private citizens first of all. So you are already 50% there. It is still required in this day and age. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreeece 2 #141 October 2, 2015 billvon>Again, homosexual weddings aren't heterosexual weddings - they are two >completely different services. And interracial marriages aren't like normal weddings - they are two completely different things. But again, refusing to do interracial marriages is going to land you in hot water. You can keep comparing this to racial hatred if you want...Hell, why not just compare it to Hitler and the Nazis while you're at it. ..but a more accurate analogy would be comparing it to a Christians that refuse to do satanic weddings. billvonHowever, there is an easy solution to your problem - don't advertise that you do weddings for anyone. That won't be necessary. I suppose when a gay couple comes in for the consultation, I could say, "hey look, I just want you to know that I've never shot/edited a gay wedding before. I'm a bit out of touch with the homosexual lifestyle and I'm afraid that my inexperience in this area might limit the creative value I could offer. Our firm would be willing to accommodate you as best as we could, but I know Adam and Steve Productions down the street are very experienced in this genre - They're great, I think you'd love 'em. If they still insisted, I suppose I could subcontract it out just as I do other work, such as voice-overs, custom music, 3D rigging. Any profit could then be donated...Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,452 #142 October 2, 2015 That sounds like an excellent, professional solution. The term "homosexual lifestyle" will make it absolutely clear where you actually stand, because Christians who disapprove are the only ones who use it. It's akin to "heterosexual lifestyle," which makes heterosexuality sound like a choice. when did you choose? And you get to donate any proceeds/profits anywhere you'd like. Would you shoot a Muslim or Jewish wedding? How would you prepare for that if the answer is yes? Does doing video for one make you a Muslim or a Jew? Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,998 #143 October 2, 2015 >You can keep comparing this to racial hatred if you want... I shall continue to do so. The two are very similar. >Hell, why not just compare it to Hitler and the Nazis while you're at it. Because it has nothing to do with Hitler and the Nazis. >That won't be necessary. I suppose when a gay couple comes in for the >consultation, I could say, "hey look, I just want you to know that I've never >shot/edited a gay wedding before. I'm a bit out of touch with the homosexual >lifestyle and I'm afraid that my inexperience in this area might limit the creative >value I could offer. Our firm would be willing to accommodate you as best as we >could, but I know Adam and Steve Productions down the street are very >experienced in this genre - They're great, I think you'd love 'em. That would be a great way to handle it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,998 #144 October 2, 2015 >So the shady,greedy Company is still allowed to sell Non- >compliant Cars in Ca and all with the state blessing and a donation. Incorrect. Read what I posted. >OBD is a Standardize system, not just a Connector. It is a technical standard, not just a connector. Again, read what I posted. >By giving VW and the others a monopolistic advantage to the manufacturer >that pays the fine? No. No monopoly and no advantage. Again, read what I posted. Are you replying to someone else? Either you are replying to someone else's post or you aren't reading what I posted. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
richravizza 28 #145 October 4, 2015 Thanks for your view and opinions. You have made your Moral and Ethical views quite clear on the aforementioned CARB issue. Non-reviewable,non-result based laws,and tax policies like AB 350 and Cap and Trade, must be high on your agenda. I'm sure you see measurable benefits,So be it. Unfortunately, you seem indifferent or dimissive to the direct costs and burdens these policies have on the public. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
richravizza 28 #146 October 4, 2015 http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/total_spending_chart Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,998 #147 October 4, 2015 >Unfortunately, you seem indifferent or dimissive to the direct costs and >burdens these policies have on the public. On the contrary, I think the companies who violate the law should bear the full cost of any required actions to remediate the problems they caused; the public should bear none of those costs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 803 #148 October 5, 2015 Thankfully, most of us do. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #149 October 5, 2015 billvon>That would be a great way to handle it. seems that exploring it a bit more and finding this out would have been kinder than just the knee jerk labeling and name calling up front ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
richravizza 28 #150 October 11, 2015 Here's a simpler one I use, without the variables. Has helped me make informed financial decisions. "The Rule of 72" "You either understand it,and earn it,or you don't,and you pay it." This simple rule tells you how long it will take for a principal amount plus interest to Double. Example; DEBT I need an AAD,or $1200, I just got a Credit Card at 22% interest,making the minimum payments. In 3yrs my debt will be $2400. 72 divided by the 22 percent interest equals 3.27 years. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
