Another mass shooting...

[turtlespeed 221]

SkyDekker

***I don't get it.

So, former US Army dude is even too crippled to keep a private msg to himself. Like not even being man enough.

I'd shoot myself if I were disabled as he his mentally. Of course, I don't have gun. Maybe he has.

This poster is not a man.
Even a bitch has more self-respect.




***Shut up mpohl....

Just go away....you add absolutely nothing to this forum and this place would be significantly better without you.

He's trolling and looking to get banned, let him.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[yoink 321]

jbscout2002

Perhaps then, widen the gap between simple gun ownership and concealed carry privileges. There is training for a concealed carry license that covers gun safety, shooting proficiency, laws, ect, but it could be a little more in depth than what it is.

This is reasonable and is something I could get behind. As is your take on when to use deadly force. You can bet in the same situation I wouldn't stand idly by and watch my wife get raped, either.

Quote

I believe there is absolutely zero chance of any one of my guns falling into the hands of a criminal, or someone unstable, or a child, because every gun I have is secured in a heavy duty fireproof safe that is bolted to the floor, except the one on the night stand that is in a lock box and requires a finger code to open.

Again, you're not the guy I'm afraid of owning a gun. If everyone was like you - trained, cautious and slightly paranoid (meant in a nice way!) I'd be much less concerned about the gun laws as they are.


The problem as I see it is that many people who are pro-gun ownership are so scared that any sort new control mechanisms put in place will inevitably lead to an eventual devolution of their personal rights and as a corollary, their individual safety and freedoms, that they push back and push back hard.

The counter argument to 'put in place gun control laws' shouldn't be 'arm everyone!'. It should be something a little left of that and then we can start negotiating, but the problem is that it's such an emotional issue that everyone takes the most extreme and rabid stance possible.

[kallend 2,027]

jtiflyer

*********

Quote

Can you offer one single control measure that could effectively prevent anything from happening?

No, nor is that a realistic expectation. Generally you would look for ways to reduce, not prevent gun crime.

This one I agree with. I just don't think the answer can be found on the far left or far right. My position is that in choosing a side I'm going to protect gun rights because I don't think that stripping them away will solve anything.

There are an estimated 200 million guns in America owned by an estimated 60-65 million people. Personally, I think the real number is twice that much.

If you ban all guns in America, completely disarm the country, and make everything illegal, there are still 200 million guns out there. Most people will not comply, so those guns will be stashed here and there, and steadily people will get caught with them and the prisons will become inundated with otherwise good law abiding people who became a nonviolent criminal over night because they disagreed with a law that violated their constitution.

Even if I played along, my approximately $25k collection of firearms becomes illegal and I just hand it over to be melted down without compensation?

This is a strawman. No-one is seriously suggesting a total gun ban.

There is a lot of middle ground between the totally ineffective system we currently have that fails to keep guns away from people who shouldn't have them (convicted felons, the mentally disturbed), and a total ban. Canada and Australia... have not banned guns, but they do a far better job of preventing gun crime than we do.

The USA has the worst record of gun murders of any first world nation. And that is NOT because Americans are just nastier people than Australians, Brits and Canadians.

And if you REMOVE DETROIT, CHICAGO, NEW ORLEANS, WASHINGTON DC. We drop to almost the bottom of that list. So we should just ban those cities right?? Maybe raze them and start over? Its not a problem of the tools used, its a society and mental health problem.

Incorrect. When comparing rates properly (per 100,000 population), NYC and Chicago don't even make the top 30. Places like Birmingham, KC, St. Louis, Baltimore, Miami and Little Rock are far worse.

kdvr.com/2015/05/08/by-the-numbers-here-are-the-most-dangerous-cities-in-america/

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rushmc 23]

#8

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[turtlespeed 221]

jbscout2002

************Also remember that Soldiers are more sympathetic to their communities and civilian friends and family than they are to a questionable government. We aren't brain washed robots that will mindlessly follow questionable orders. America. It's a beautiful country.

Kent State disproves that one

So we should persecute all military members because of the mistakes of a select few? Kind of like what we are doing to our LEOs right now.

How many of the LEO's who are some of the problem children to their departments learned their craft in the military and forgot a lot of their humanity by their experiences.

I don't think those type of experiences have that effect. I would argue the contrary, that experiencing those event give you a better appreciation for humanity.

I wholly wish the anti gun crowd would have to experience what you did, in the situations that you did. I would love to see their opinion after two years of that.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[normiss 803]

Damn man.
Very saddened and sorry to hear that.

[kallend 2,027]

Quote

Two officials said that after the shooting, the gunman's family told investigators that he suffered from mental health issues and had sought treatment.

Quote

Five pistols and one rifle were found at the college, where the shooter died Thursday after a gunbattle with police, Nunez told reporters.

Police searched his apartment and found two pistols, four rifles and a shotgun, she said.

All the guns were legally obtained by the shooter or family members over the last three years through a federally licensed firearms dealer

Something is wrong with this picture.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[normiss 803]

Speaking of ADHD, once you give that person the psychotropic drugs and let him play those games is that you may have the mass murderer trifecta.
Easier than religion camp too.

[jbscout2002 1]

kallend

Quote

Two officials said that after the shooting, the gunman's family told investigators that he suffered from mental health issues and had sought treatment.

***Five pistols and one rifle were found at the college, where the shooter died Thursday after a gunbattle with police, Nunez told reporters.

Police searched his apartment and found two pistols, four rifles and a shotgun, she said.

All the guns were legally obtained by the shooter or family members over the last three years through a federally licensed firearms dealer

Something is wrong with this picture.

He is under 21, so he cannot legally purchase a pistol. If a family member legally purchased it under their name and gave it to him, it is called a straw purchase and is a felony. With a history of mental illness or any psychiatric treatment, he could not have passed a background check for the rifle. Again straw purchase.

This is semantics used to convince people that gun control is the answer. The guns were all legally purchased AND THEN ILLEGALLY GIVEN TO HIM.

Charge the responsible family member with the felony straw purchase and tack on manslaughter.

[jbscout2002 1]

I think no one should experience that. That was ultimately why I chose the medical retirement. I'm fully capable physically. I just didn't feel like I was the right person for the job anymore. Kind of lost the taste for it.

[jbscout2002 1]

normiss

Speaking of ADHD, once you give that person the psychotropic drugs and let him play those games is that you may have the mass murderer trifecta.
Easier than religion camp too.

Al Qada terror training camp. Bunch of guys sitting around listening to Marlyn Manson while playing Flight Simulator 98

[kallend 2,027]

jbscout2002

***

Quote

Two officials said that after the shooting, the gunman's family told investigators that he suffered from mental health issues and had sought treatment.

***Five pistols and one rifle were found at the college, where the shooter died Thursday after a gunbattle with police, Nunez told reporters.

Police searched his apartment and found two pistols, four rifles and a shotgun, she said.

All the guns were legally obtained by the shooter or family members over the last three years through a federally licensed firearms dealer

Something is wrong with this picture.

He is under 21, ...

Incorrect. He is (was) 26.

Quote

State police also provided the first official confirmation of the shooter’s identity: 26-year-old Christopher Sean Harper-Mercer.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[jbscout2002 1]

kallend

******

Quote

Two officials said that after the shooting, the gunman's family told investigators that he suffered from mental health issues and had sought treatment.

***Five pistols and one rifle were found at the college, where the shooter died Thursday after a gunbattle with police, Nunez told reporters.

Police searched his apartment and found two pistols, four rifles and a shotgun, she said.

All the guns were legally obtained by the shooter or family members over the last three years through a federally licensed firearms dealer

Something is wrong with this picture.

He is under 21, ...

Incorrect. He is (was) 26.

Quote

State police also provided the first official confirmation of the shooter’s identity: 26-year-old Christopher Sean Harper-Mercer.

Ok, then move pistols next to comment about rifle. Keep everything about failing background checks and straw purchases

[kallend 2,027]

jbscout2002

*********

Quote

Two officials said that after the shooting, the gunman's family told investigators that he suffered from mental health issues and had sought treatment.

***Five pistols and one rifle were found at the college, where the shooter died Thursday after a gunbattle with police, Nunez told reporters.

Police searched his apartment and found two pistols, four rifles and a shotgun, she said.

All the guns were legally obtained by the shooter or family members over the last three years through a federally licensed firearms dealer

Something is wrong with this picture.

He is under 21, ...

Incorrect. He is (was) 26.

Quote

State police also provided the first official confirmation of the shooter’s identity: 26-year-old Christopher Sean Harper-Mercer.

Ok, then move pistols next to comment about rifle. Keep everything about failing background checks and straw purchases

Thank you for agreeing that the laws as they currently exist are completely toothless and incapable of keeping guns out of the hands of those who shouldn't have them.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[normiss 803]

We should require that safe storage for all owners I think.
I've been raised that way and never had had a weapon without the safe.
Now open up HIPPA laws to the background check and require it when a gun changes hands. When all guns change hands. No exceptions.

It's disgusting that we continue to allow insane people access, period.

[jbscout2002 1]

kallend

************

Quote

Two officials said that after the shooting, the gunman's family told investigators that he suffered from mental health issues and had sought treatment.

***Five pistols and one rifle were found at the college, where the shooter died Thursday after a gunbattle with police, Nunez told reporters.

Police searched his apartment and found two pistols, four rifles and a shotgun, she said.

All the guns were legally obtained by the shooter or family members over the last three years through a federally licensed firearms dealer

Something is wrong with this picture.

He is under 21, ...

Incorrect. He is (was) 26.

Quote

State police also provided the first official confirmation of the shooter’s identity: 26-year-old Christopher Sean Harper-Mercer.

Ok, then move pistols next to comment about rifle. Keep everything about failing background checks and straw purchases

Thank you for agreeing that the laws as they currently exist are completely toothless and incapable of keeping guns out of the hands of those who shouldn't have them.

Most of the conversation between you and me has been about how you think more gun laws are needed. I saw adding more laws won't change anything. I think this proves my point more than yours. If it is illegal, but happened anyways, then what are you planing to outlaw here that would have changed something? I don't believe you have ever answered this, after being asked repeatedly by myself and others. It was illegal for him to get a gun. So tell me what law you are going to add that is going to make it so illegal, that he would have obeyed the gun laws while killing people?

[jbscout2002 1]

normiss

We should require that safe storage for all owners I think.
I've been raised that way and never had had a weapon without the safe.
Now open up HIPPA laws to the background check and require it when a gun changes hands. When all guns change hands. No exceptions.

It's disgusting that we continue to allow insane people access, period.

This is good and can produce results. Actually punish people who fail to secure them. The background checks happen at gun shows and licensed FFL dealers. It's hard to catch people and enforce it when it is two long time buddies trading a gun for some piece of farm equipment. Maybe the threat of stiffer punishment would help.

The problem is all the illegal guns. Stollen or smuggled in for out of the country. They change hands among gangs and felons like its nothing.

[kallend 2,027]

It seems that concealed carry doesn't reduce crime after all, according to Texas A&M research:

www.hindawi.com/journals/jcrim/2015/803742/

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[jbscout2002 1]

Back to the shooters family, they are at some level responsible for this. If you have a family member with known mental health issues, with a history of mental health treatment, and you know he has firearms at his house and you think his is OK?

I haven't been following the story, but didn't he make statements on social media that he was going to do this? It looks to me like a lot of warning signs were ignored.

If we had a Soldier that was having trouble handling stress, or presented suicidal or homicidal warnings of any type, we automatically seized all weapons in the house and put the, in the unit arms room until his psychiatrist and either psychologist or social worker cleared him.

[kallend 2,027]

jbscout2002

***************

Quote

Two officials said that after the shooting, the gunman's family told investigators that he suffered from mental health issues and had sought treatment.

***Five pistols and one rifle were found at the college, where the shooter died Thursday after a gunbattle with police, Nunez told reporters.

Police searched his apartment and found two pistols, four rifles and a shotgun, she said.

All the guns were legally obtained by the shooter or family members over the last three years through a federally licensed firearms dealer

Something is wrong with this picture.

He is under 21, ...

Incorrect. He is (was) 26.

Quote

State police also provided the first official confirmation of the shooter’s identity: 26-year-old Christopher Sean Harper-Mercer.

Ok, then move pistols next to comment about rifle. Keep everything about failing background checks and straw purchases

Thank you for agreeing that the laws as they currently exist are completely toothless and incapable of keeping guns out of the hands of those who shouldn't have them.

Most of the conversation between you and me has been about how you think more gun laws are needed. I saw adding more laws won't change anything. I think this proves my point more than yours. If it is illegal, but happened anyways, then what are you planing to outlaw here that would have changed something? I don't believe you have ever answered this, after being asked repeatedly by myself and others. It was illegal for him to get a gun. So tell me what law you are going to add that is going to make it so illegal, that he would have obeyed the gun laws while killing people?

Incorrect. I haven't called for more laws. Just effective enforcement of existing laws that already prohibit gun ownership by inappropriate people. The current ineffective mechanism and stupid restrictions on background checks are a perfect example of this.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Bolas 5]

yoink

The problem as I see it is that many people who are pro-gun ownership are so scared that any sort new control mechanisms put in place will inevitably lead to an eventual devolution of their personal rights and as a corollary, their individual safety and freedoms, that they push back and push back hard.

History supports their fear...

Quote

The counter argument to 'put in place gun control laws' shouldn't be 'arm everyone!'. It should be something a little left of that and then we can start negotiating, but the problem is that it's such an emotional issue that everyone takes the most extreme and rabid stance possible.

Allow people to be armed to protect themselves or protect them. That's it. Passive or active security.

If someone wants a "gun free zone" they need to do more than put up a sign stating it. They must secure it. Search those entering to ensure they have no weapons and have armed security to protect those whom are essentially now defenseless.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[jbscout2002 1]

kallend

It seems that concealed carry doesn't reduce crime after all, according to Texas A&M research:

www.hindawi.com/journals/jcrim/2015/803742/

I think nothing is going to reduce crime other than more focused policing in higher come areas. Your occupation listed on your profile suggest you are a somewhat intelligent person lol. You know that for every study proving CCW doesn't work, there is one proving it does. For every study showing gun control works, there is one proving it actually increases crime.

These aren't soccer moms and red necks arguing about guns. These are Harvard Law studies and UCLA Criminology studies and they all disprove each other constantly.

I subscribe to CCW magazine and every month I can cite to you all the incidents where a CCW saved lives without a single shot being fired and lead to the apprehension of the criminal. I can cite cases where cops have had their lives saves by armed citizens.

Based purely on statistics, some stats see a drop in crime after enacting CCW laws. Some see the opposite. I think it has less to do with the CCW and more to do with what is going on in that state. There are actually a very small number of people who go through all the trouble to get a CCW.

[jbscout2002 1]

jbscout2002

***It seems that concealed carry doesn't reduce crime after all, according to Texas A&M research:

www.hindawi.com/journals/jcrim/2015/803742/

I think nothing is going to reduce crime other than more focused policing in higher come areas. Your occupation listed on your profile suggest you are a somewhat intelligent person lol. You know that for every study proving CCW doesn't work, there is one proving it does. For every study showing gun control works, there is one proving it actually increases crime.

These aren't soccer moms and red necks arguing about guns. These are Harvard Law studies and UCLA Criminology studies and they all disprove each other constantly.

I subscribe to CCW magazine and every month I can cite to you all the incidents where a CCW saved lives without a single shot being fired and lead to the apprehension of the criminal. I can cite cases where cops have had their lives saves by armed citizens.

Based purely on statistics, some stats see a drop in crime after enacting CCW laws. Some see the opposite. I think it has less to do with the CCW and more to do with what is going on in that state. There are actually a very small number of people who go through all the trouble to get a CCW.

Perfect example of this is Illinois. With he violence in Chicago, Il finally lifted the ban on CCW after being forced into it. But, the state made the process extremely difficult, expensive, and time consuming. There was then a 12-18 processing period before your CCW was issued. So after the CCW was enacted, it was almost 2 years before the first citizens there began to obtain them. Meanwhile during that first year, come continued to rise, and this was cited as empirical proof that CCW does not work. Although in reality, there was no one with a CCW during that time period.

[gowlerk 2,205]

Not directed at any one person here. I keep seeing posts about "fixing" the problem. Dealing with mental health, trigger locks etc. Who are you kidding? The problem is that your country is flooded with guns because so many of you desire them to use them as toys. They are not toys. They are very efficient machines designed to kill. Most of the ones you are having problems with are designed specifically to kill people. Then you seem to feel that they are being misused. The real problem is that too many people use them to do exactly what they are made to do. Kill people. That is not going to go away. There is no use talking about fixing it. You either accept it or you reduce the number of guns. A few of you here seem to be able to understand that. But most of you don't want to admit and embrace the truth. You just keep on with airy fairy schemes that will make no difference at all. Really, grow up.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[normiss 803]

My best friend gun nut special forces friend sells me a gun, a transaction should be cleared, required, enforced.
Every single time.
Heavy penalty should be available to the judge but not a silly zero tolerance approach law. Even an inherited piece.
Connecting health records to background checks is nothing more than a few ether net cables.

As much as I love them, we really must address the seriousness of what we currently tolerate and accept.