Another mass shooting...

[JoeWeber 2,811]

BIGUN

He also wrote, "a world in which, despite drastic changes, people remain essentially the same." Which goes along with Derek's points. There will always be those who follow the law regarding firearms and those who don't.

Making more gun laws is not going to change the nutters who have no regard for the law.

Let's make a law that - If during the commission of a crime you use a gun = the death penalty. The next day, some nutter will commit that crime.

BIGUN,

Then how is it that open societies that have more gun laws than we do also have fewer gun crimes?

Joe

[BIGUN 1,401]

Hey, Joe.

I would attribute that more to culture than to laws. Perhaps a better question is - Why are there open societies that have the same gun laws as us not have near as many gun crimes.

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/02/swiss-guns/553448/

Keith

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[JerryBaumchen 1,429]

Hi Keith,

Quote

one now-in-the-news example

Your one example went to the extreme; where did I advocate that?

I would be happy with something like Canada has, as one example.

And, I do not consider it extreme.

Unless one is OK with the current mass killings in this country, we need to do something.

Jerry Baumchen

[gowlerk 2,249]

BIGUN

Hey, Joe.

I would attribute that more to culture than to laws. Perhaps a better question is - Why are there open societies that have the same gun laws as us not have near as many gun crimes.

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/02/swiss-guns/553448/

Keith

Well, a good part of the answer to that question is in the article.

Quote

For one thing, Switzerland’s rate of gun ownership is still substantially lower than America’s—in Switzerland the rate is roughly one gun per four people, whereas in the U.S. it’s more than one per person, according to GunPolicy.org. The Swiss Defense Ministry estimates that there are 2 million privately owned weapons in the country of 8.3 million people. There are estimated to be 300 million guns in the U.S., but 130 million of them are owned by about 3 percent of the adult population.

Generally more guns in the hands of more people equals more bullets in the air. They are a great tool and come in very handy when tempers flare up. Just like when your only tool is hammer every problem becomes a nail.

The article also notes that the Swiss gun death rate, although much lower than that in the US, is the highest in Europe. Actually the article explains all the ways the Swiss work to keep guns out of the hands of some people. In ways the NRA would fight tooth and nail.

Are you saying the US should have Swiss type gun laws? I agree. They really look pretty similar to Canadian laws. Good choice of models you picked there. I hope you get to work on bringing them to the USA soon.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[BIGUN 1,401]

JerryBaumchen

Hi Keith,

Quote

one now-in-the-news example

Your one example went to the extreme; where did I advocate that?

I would be happy with something like Canada has, as one example.

And, I do not consider it extreme.

Unless one is OK with the current mass killings in this country, we need to do something.

Jerry Baumchen

Jerry,

Point taken on the extreme. It was a "real-world" example.

As to the "Canada" solution - I made a thread about proposed solutions. Here's the interesting thing. I even used the Canadian model in the solution (and more) - guess what? It got slammed by the Democrats on here as not good enough. Most of them didn't even know what the Canadian model was... But, it wasn't enough.

Keith

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

BIGUN

...Now, the citizens CAN own weapons, but Honduras developed a national database of all purchases, which was done from La Armeria, in which the database is run by La Armeria. So, speak out against Daniel Ortega and his cronies and see if you can own one or not have it confiscated if you cross the wrong person in "competent authority."

I don't doubt that those are the laws in Honduras, and that those in power can take the guns away from those they don't like.

But Ortega isn't 'those in power'. Not in Honduras. He's in Nicaragua, along with the rest of the Sandinistas.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[yoink 321]

JerryBaumchen

Unless one is OK with the current mass killings in this country, we need to do something

And there you have it.


I asked openly a while ago if the cost of gun ownership is continued events like these do you consider it worth the trade off?

At least RiggerRob was honest enough to answer that he did. Every other pro 2nd poster was conspicuously quiet.
They think it’s worth other people dying for their right to have fun, but they’ll never admit it. Gun-toting cowards... the irony is palpable.

[JoeWeber 2,811]

BIGUN

Hey, Joe.

I would attribute that more to culture than to laws. Perhaps a better question is - Why are there open societies that have the same gun laws as us not have near as many gun crimes.

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/02/swiss-guns/553448/

Keith

Keith,

Thanks for the link. By sheer coincidence I was looking at this just before checking out SC. The tags price in CHF; Swiss francs.

Are you suggesting that a nations gun laws should reflect it's culture? If so, at which point in time? In our case, do we pick 1776, 1865 or 2018?

That's what makes it all so thorny. I'm a gun person, that's no secret. To be sure, I'm a bit of an oddity amongst we pinkos in that way. I just believe that gun ownership and more gun laws in America need not be mutually exclusive things. Like Ken, I'd agree with Swiss laws above our own.

Things will change and we need to start somewhere.

Joe

[wmw999 2,529]

Just as an aside, I think it was Derek (hooknswoop) who said the trade off was reasonable. Righerrob is Canadian.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[BIGUN 1,401]

Morning Joe,

Quote

But Ortega isn't 'those in power'. Not in Honduras. He's in Nicaragua, along with the rest of the Sandinistas.

Mea culpa. I was entrenched in anger about the whole region (well, I have been for a long time); I switched players in the middle of the game. Thanks for the catch.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[BIGUN 1,401]

JoeWeber

***Hey, Joe.

I would attribute that more to culture than to laws. Perhaps a better question is - Why are there open societies that have the same gun laws as us not have near as many gun crimes.

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/02/swiss-guns/553448/

Keith

Keith,

Thanks for the link. By sheer coincidence I was looking at this just before checking out SC. The tags price in CHF; Swiss francs.

Are you suggesting that a nations gun laws should reflect it's culture? If so, at which point in time? In our case, do we pick 1776, 1865 or 2018?

That's what makes it all so thorny. I'm a gun person, that's no secret. To be sure, I'm a bit of an oddity amongst we pinkos in that way. I just believe that gun ownership and more gun laws in America need not be mutually exclusive things. Like Ken, I'd agree with Swiss laws above our own.

Things will change and we need to start somewhere.

Joe

Morning Joe,

>>>Are you suggesting that a nations gun laws should reflect it's culture?

Just the opposite. I think the culture reflects its gun laws.

I don't read you as a pinko. More like just left of moderate.

On separate, but important point - about our laws in the US. Not only for you; but, Jerry and others. In speaking about Honduras & Switzerland and the proposed solution thread - All have a common denominator - A national firearms registry database (We have discussed cradle to grave ownership not unlike a vehicle).

The fact of the matter is that all of the discussions regarding "solutions" have one huge barrier. No one can be compelled to register their weapons in a national database in the US. [emphasis] No one.

The Firearm Owners' Protection Act of 1986 (FOPA) is a United States federal law that revised many provisions of the Gun Control Act of 1968. As such, FOPA makes it illegal for the national government or any state in the country to keep any sort of database or registry that ties firearms directly to their owner. The exact wording of the provision is as follows:

"No such rule or regulation prescribed [by the Attorney General] after the date of the enactment of the Firearms Owners Protection Act may require that records required to be maintained under this chapter or any portion of the contents of such records, be recorded at or transferred to a facility owned, managed, or controlled by the United States or any State or any political subdivision thereof, nor that any system of registration of firearms, firearms owners, or firearms transactions or disposition be established. Nothing in this section expands or restricts the Secretary's authority to inquire into the disposition of any firearm in the course of a criminal investigation."

The FOPA was enacted because - 75 percent of ATF prosecutions "were aimed at ordinary citizens who had neither criminal intent nor knowledge, but were enticed by agents into unknowing technical violations." It suggested that reform of federal firearms law such as proposed in S. 1030 "would be largely self-enforcing" and "would enhance vital protection of constitutional and civil liberties of those Americans who choose to exercise their Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms."

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[BIGUN 1,401]

Quote

Are you saying the US should have Swiss type gun laws? I agree. They really look pretty similar to Canadian laws. Good choice of models you picked there. I hope you get to work on bringing them to the USA soon.

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4876454#4876454

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

Quote

As to the "Canada" solution - I made a thread about proposed solutions. Here's the interesting thing. I even used the Canadian model in the solution (and more) - guess what? It got slammed by the Democrats on here as not good enough. Most of them didn't even know what the Canadian model was... But, it wasn't enough.

Well, you did leave out one big part of the Canadian model. The part where we don't get to easily transport handguns at all. We certainly don't get to freely walk around with them.

[BIGUN 1,401]

All of Item 1 was based on the Canadian Model where the term "Transport" was used. It does not take much to review the Canadian transport model as...

Non-restricted firearms left unattended in a car must be locked in the trunk or in a similar lockable compartment. If the vehicle does not have a trunk or compartment, the firearm must be placed out of sight inside the vehicle and the vehicle must be locked (same rules apply for transport of replica firearms)

Non-restricted firearms must be: transported unloaded (with the exception of muzzle-loading rifles, which can be transported loaded between hunting sites so long as the firing cap or flint is removed).

Restricted and prohibited firearms must be: unloaded, made inoperable with a secure locking device, and locked in a sturdy container. Prohibited firearms must also have their bolts or bolt-carriers removed, if removable.

Quote

We certainly don't get to freely walk around with them.

Nor do we. With the exception of five states, you must apply and get approved for a CCP to do so (Background check, mental check, etc.).

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

Quote

Restricted and prohibited firearms must be: unloaded, made inoperable with a secure locking device, and locked in a sturdy container. Prohibited firearms must also have their bolts or bolt-carriers removed, if removable.

This is all handguns by the way.

You also have to call in and get permission to transport, prior to transporting.

Quote

Nor do we. With the exception of five states, you must apply and get approved for a CCP to do so (Background check, mental check, etc.).

Unless you work in the armoured car business, work in a remote area of the wilderness, or are a professional trapper, you cannot get a license to carry concealed as a civilian. The license is further restricted to a maximum of 2 years, after which you need to re-apply.

It is a huge difference.

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/form-formulaire/pdfs/5491-eng.pdf

[SkyDekker 1,465]

https://twitter.com/ryanlcooper/status/1056992237224124417

[riggerrob 643]

wmw999

Just as an aside, I think it was Derek (hooknswoop) who said the trade off was reasonable. Righerrob is Canadian.

Wendy P.

————————————————————————————

Thanks Wendy,
..... for correcting that.
All my life I have been punished for sins that never even crossed my mind.
Riggerrob

[riggerrob 643]

What?
No outrage about the synagogue shooting in Philadelphia on Saturday, 2018 October 27?
It was clearly an infringement on “freedom of religion.”

Judging from early news reports, the gun man was another white loner.

These loners tend to be ‘white trash’ who are frustrated by their low social and economic status. Rather than admit that their low status is a result of smoking too much in high school (pick any dozen other wastes of time) instead of studying or sports, they blame their problems on the nearest minority. Rather than working to improve themselves (work, education, coaching kids sports, etc.) they use bully tactics to belittle others. They - naively - believe that bashing minorities will allow them to regain their “proper” social status.
These losers are little more than school yard bullies who never grew up. Ganging up to bash minorities is easy. Sadly, Jew-bashing and fag-bashing are ineffective at helping them regain status.
How much courage or muscle does it take to shoot an 80+ year old lady?

[BIGUN 1,401]

riggerrob

What?
No outrage about the synagogue shooting in Philadelphia on Saturday, 2018 October 27?
It was clearly an infringement on “freedom of religion.”

Judging from early news reports, the gun man was another white loner.

These loners tend to be ‘white trash’ who are frustrated by their low social and economic status. Rather than admit that their low status is a result of smoking too much in high school (pick any dozen other wastes of time) instead of studying or sports, they blame their problems on the nearest minority. Rather than working to improve themselves (work, education, coaching kids sports, etc.) they use bully tactics to belittle others. They - naively - believe that bashing minorities will allow them to regain their “proper” social status.
These losers are little more than school yard bullies who never grew up. Ganging up to bash minorities is easy. Sadly, Jew-bashing and fag-bashing are ineffective at helping them regain status.
How much courage or muscle does it take to shoot an 80+ year old lady?

Rob,

Sorry for not responding sooner. Most of Tulsa was busy at the Synagogues around town. I really hope you don't think I condone racist, anti-gay, or other prejudicial behaviors. EDIT: I'm really not sure why this was directed at me.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[riggerrob 643]

Relax Bigun,

My post was not directed at you specifically.

Rather I was talking to everyone on this forum.

[DJL 235]

riggerrob

Relax Bigun,

My post was not directed at you specifically.

Rather I was talking to everyone on this forum.

What makes you think there was no outrage about this shooting?

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[kallend 2,106]

DJL

***Relax Bigun,

My post was not directed at you specifically.

Rather I was talking to everyone on this forum.

What makes you think there was no outrage about this shooting?

30 Americans are murdered by firearms on any typical day. This event, tragic as it is, is just a blip on a steady stream of deadly violence and will have the same effect as the Vegas and Florida massacres - NONE.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[wmw999 2,529]

Wow. This thread made it to the second page.

Thousand Oaks, CA. Former Marine with possible PTSD issues kills 12 at a country music night club. Had had contact with law enforcement. Gun was purchased legally, but it may have had an illegal oversized magazine.

Reason not known.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[SkyDekker 1,465]

I find it sad that as a society the US is OK with this level of violence and not willing to even start down a path of trying to fix this. This number of deaths has become acceptable for "freedom".

[DJL 235]

Quote

This number of deaths has become acceptable for "freedom".

This is the point of view of well educated Americans who consider themselves to be moderates and centrists.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher