Another mass shooting...

[jbscout2002 1]

kallend

***I believe in the theory that these shootings are becoming more common because the American society is becoming desensitized to violence through video games like Grand Theft Auto and Call of Duty.

Of course, they don't have video games in Canada, Australia and Britain.

You appear to be a soldier. Don't you think that maybe your training gives you a different view of the effectiveness of a firearm for self defense in a high stress situation than would be the case for an untrained civilian?

My perspective as a Soldier will be biased in several ways.
-Personally I have whitenessed far more situations where guns where used to save innocent lives than to take them.
-I have seen the world for what it really is, a cruel and violent place where the unprotected are raped, tortured, and murdered.
-During my 15 years f service, I spent a collective of 5 years in combat zones, seeing a world that most of you will forever be shielded from.
-I've seen up to 60 freshly killed bodies laying in a ditch due to sectarian violence between Suunis and Shiites.
-I've seen children who were tortured because their parents were suspected of having cooperated with us to name a few

While it may be far fetched, or even "silly" to think that this could ever happen in America, I took an oath to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic. I put my ass on the line doing just that. My military career was cut short when I was medically retired due to wounds received in combat.

I think a lot of the things people say these days are stupid, but I will give my life to protect their right to say it. I am an atheist, but I will give my life to preserve every Americans right to practice whatever religion they chose. I attended a funeral for a close friend who was killed in the attack where I was wounded when the Westboro Church showed up to celebrate his death and protest and condemn all Soldiers, and although I would have assaulted them if I had the chance, I agree that they have the right to believe and say whatever they want (even though they are wrong).

As soon as one of our constitution rights is stripped away, it sets a precedent. Once it has been done, why can't it be done again? Where will it stop? Today the Democrats take away my guns, tomorrow the Republicans take away your right to let you 13 year old daughter abort her rape baby. Then what, with the Patriot Act and the whole mess with the NSA we just do away with the 4th Ammendment because maybe we can get lucky every once in a while with random search and seizures.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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As soon as one of our constitution rights is stripped away, it sets a precedent. Once it has been done, why can't it be done again? Where will it stop? Today the Democrats take away my guns, tomorrow the Republicans take away your right to let you 13 year old daughter abort her rape baby. Then what, with the Patriot Act and the whole mess with the NSA we just do away with the 4th Ammendment because maybe we can get lucky every once in a while with random search and seizures

There is a process in place to amend your constitution, which I believe completely negates this slippery slope idea. It is extremely hard to accomplish.

Thank you for serving your country.

[rushmc 23]

SkyDekker

I don't believe that the reduction in crime rates over the last years has anything to do with increased gun ownership.

I was not making that claim
But more guns does not mean more gun violence

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

yoink

***Anomalies happen. Young scared poorly trained weekend warriors during a tumultuous time following orders from an emotionally unstable and inexperienced young Sargeant.

You are the anomaly.

You are trained to deal with high stress situations with lethal force.

Most people who want the right to carry guns everywhere aren't, and that's the problem. Everyone thinks that they'll go all James Bond in a situation like that but it's a fantasy. If it was so easy why would government agencies spend so long programming people to deal with those situations...?

If memory serves didn't a couple of policeman mow down a load of bystanders in NY not too long ago while trying to shoot at a criminal? If they're that bad at it, joe public isn't going to be any better...


The truth is that having more guns in public in untrained hands can only make the overall situation worse. Both with easier access for criminals to steal them, the liklihood of people with mental instability to have access to them, and the potential for more bystanders to be injured.

Can you imagine what would happen if 6 or 7 people were armed in a situation like this? Someone panics or accidentally hits an innocent, someone else thinks they're part of the problem and shoots at them, and all of a sudden it's a free-for-all.

I will never be convinced that having more people carrying firearms is the solution to these problems. I just don't trust people that much.

You can not make this case from any point of view

Gun ownership has increased dramatically. Conceal weapon permits are being allowed more and are easier to get in more states than ever

But gun crime is not increasing

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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But more guns does not mean more gun violence

Yes it does. And just because gun ownership is increasing even furtehr in the US and gun crime isn't going up doesn't negate that.

[rushmc 23]

SkyDekker

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But more guns does not mean more gun violence

Yes it does. And just because gun ownership is increasing even furtehr in the US and gun crime isn't going up doesn't negate that.

Now you are making things up

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[jbscout2002 1]

yoink

***Anomalies happen. Young scared poorly trained weekend warriors during a tumultuous time following orders from an emotionally unstable and inexperienced young Sargeant.

You are the anomaly.

You are trained to deal with high stress situations with lethal force.

Most people who want the right to carry guns everywhere aren't, and that's the problem. Everyone thinks that they'll go all James Bond in a situation like that but it's a fantasy. If it was so easy why would government agencies spend so long programming people to deal with those situations...?

If memory serves didn't a couple of policeman mow down a load of bystanders in NY not too long ago while trying to shoot at a criminal? If they're that bad at it, joe public isn't going to be any better...


The truth is that having more guns in public in untrained hands can only make the overall situation worse. Both with easier access for criminals to steal them, the liklihood of people with mental instability to have access to them, and the potential for more bystanders to be injured.

Can you imagine what would happen if 6 or 7 people were armed in a situation like this? Someone panics or accidentally hits an innocent, someone else thinks they're part of the problem and shoots at them, and all of a sudden it's a free-for-all.

I will never be convinced that having more people carrying firearms is the solution to these problems. I just don't trust people that much.

This is logical. All I can say, which isn't a good solution, is that in situations like these, the untrained or incapable while most often freeze up and fail to act at all, so they don't actually add to the problem, they just carry a false sense of security.

Perhaps then, widen the gap between simple gun ownership and concealed carry privileges. There is training for a concealed carry license that covers gun safety, shooting proficiency, laws, ect, but it could be a little more in depth than what it is.

Also, the idea of concealed carry is self defense from imminent danger, not running around playing super hero. If I'm armed in a bank and someone flashes a gun in his waist band and demands money, I'm going to sit there and watch him walk out the door and provide my statement to the FBI. If he has an assault rifle and starts going down the line shooting everyone, I'm going to shoot, because not shooting is certain death.

If I'm armed and someone puts a knife to my wife's neck and demands my wallet, he can have it. I'll let the police do their job. If he thinks he is going to hold a gun on us while he rapes my wife, I'm going to help him clear his mind with some .40 cal hydro-shocks.

[tonyhays 86]

John Oliver did a 3 piece segment on gun control after Sandy Hook and focused on Australia. Yes, it is a anti gun piece but worth a watch(its on YouTube)

Every single Aussie I have talked to is happy about the gun buy back program and says they feel safer for it.

“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”

[jbscout2002 1]

SkyDekker

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But more guns does not mean more gun violence

Yes it does. And just because gun ownership is increasing even furtehr in the US and gun crime isn't going up doesn't negate that.

Actually according to the 2014 FBI crime report, violent crimes have been steadily decreasing for the last decade, and 2014 saw the lowest rate of violent crimes since 1994.

It's also important to note that the American cities with the highest rates of gun violence have the strictest gun control in the U.S.

NYC, no guns allowed except by special permit issued by a judge on a case by case basis only after showing sufficient reason for needing it. D.C., absolutely no guns allowed by civilians whatsoever, wth no waivers or special permits. Baltimore, Chicago, Detroit, all gun restricted cities within states that have some of the strictest gun laws in the nation.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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It's also important to note that the American cities with the highest rates of gun violence have the strictest gun control in the U.S.

It is also important to note that 1st world countries with strict gun control have far less innocent people getting killed by guns.

It is a lot easier to get a gun into a city than to get it into a country.

The main reason gun crime in the US is so much higher than other 1st world countries is because of the easy availability of guns. There is nothing else that makes Americans significantly different from Canadian or Australians etc.

[jbscout2002 1]

tonyhays

John Oliver did a 3 piece segment on gun control after Sandy Hook and focused on Australia. Yes, it is a anti gun piece but worth a watch(its on YouTube)

Every single Aussie I have talked to is happy about the gun buy back program and says they feel safer for it.

I have some that are neat, and fun to shoot, but otherwise "unnecessary". I'm willing to compromise and participate in a buyback program offering fare market value, because some people buy guns as investments and never even shoot them, but to my knowledge, that has never been proposed in American gun control pushes. Only banning manufacture, sale, or possession of certain items. When the SAFE act was passed (illegally) you had like 9 months to "get rid of" the stuff that was now banned. People in bordering states took advantage by offering pennies for thousand dollar guns, because what else were you going to do? Give it away or turn it in to be melted down.

[jbscout2002 1]

SkyDekker

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It's also important to note that the American cities with the highest rates of gun violence have the strictest gun control in the U.S.

It is also important to note that 1st world countries with strict gun control have far less innocent people getting killed by guns.

It is a lot easier to get a gun into a city than to get it into a country.

The main reason gun crime in the US is so much higher than other 1st world countries is because of the easy availability of guns. There is nothing else that makes Americans significantly different from Canadian or Australians etc.

My counter to that is the number of guns already here, differences in cultures and geographic locations, gangs, the drug trade, and Mexican cartels will always offset or undermine these efforts. Again resulting in good people not being able to have guns, but guns still being readily available for criminals all across the country

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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My counter to that is the number of guns already here

That is not a counter, that is what I am saying.

There is no significant difference in culture between Americans and Canadians.

Gangs, drug trade and Mexican Cartels are certainly big factors in gun crime, but much smaller factors in innocent people dying.

That leaves geographic location as the only reason why so many more innocent people get shot in the US? I find that hard to believe.

[jbscout2002 1]

SkyDekker

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My counter to that is the number of guns already here

That is not a counter, that is what I am saying.

There is no significant difference in culture between Americans and Canadians.

Gangs, drug trade and Mexican Cartels are certainly big factors in gun crime, but much smaller factors in innocent people dying.

That leaves geographic location as the only reason why so many more innocent people get shot in the US? I find that hard to believe.

So Washington D.C., the U.S. city with the highest rate of gun violence in the country, is a 100% gun free city. Absolutely no firearms of any type are permitted by civilians. There are no exceptions to this. You can be fully legal and in full compliance of VA state law with your pistol, but I'd you enter the district, you are committing a felony. This place, mind you, has the highest rate of gun violence in the nation.

Now, Bumfuck, OK, is a place where open carry is allowed. You can go to the mall, get lunch, a new outfit, new watch, a pistol, ammo, and holster, and walk out the door with it loaded on your hip. Bumfuck, OK hasn't had a gun crime in 50 years, not since Ciecel caught Jethrow courting his wife one night.

So if you make it illegal for Jo Bob in Bumfuck to own a gun, this will fix the violence problem in D.C. where guns have always been illegal?

[SkyDekker 1,465]

jbscout2002

***

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My counter to that is the number of guns already here

That is not a counter, that is what I am saying.

There is no significant difference in culture between Americans and Canadians.

Gangs, drug trade and Mexican Cartels are certainly big factors in gun crime, but much smaller factors in innocent people dying.

That leaves geographic location as the only reason why so many more innocent people get shot in the US? I find that hard to believe.

So Washington D.C., the U.S. city with the highest rate of gun violence in the country, is a 100% gun free city. Absolutely no firearms of any type are permitted by civilians. There are no exceptions to this. You can be fully legal and in full compliance of VA state law with your pistol, but I'd you enter the district, you are committing a felony. This place, mind you, has the highest rate of gun violence in the nation.

Now, Bumfuck, OK, is a place where open carry is allowed. You can go to the mall, get lunch, a new outfit, new watch, a pistol, ammo, and holster, and walk out the door with it loaded on your hip. Bumfuck, OK hasn't had a gun crime in 50 years, not since Ciecel caught Jethrow courting his wife one night.

So if you make it illegal for Jo Bob in Bumfuck to own a gun, this will fix the violence problem in D.C. where guns have always been illegal?

Nothing will fix the problem, there are options that over a long period of time will help reduce the violence problem.

[winsor 236]

kallend

***Also remember that Soldiers are more sympathetic to their communities and civilian friends and family than they are to a questionable government.

And then there's Kent State.

Those were National Guardsmen who had just come from a high-intensity standoff with miners on strike. They were untrained in crowd control, and led by blithering idiots.

[jbscout2002 1]

SkyDekker

******

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My counter to that is the number of guns already here

That is not a counter, that is what I am saying.

There is no significant difference in culture between Americans and Canadians.

Gangs, drug trade and Mexican Cartels are certainly big factors in gun crime, but much smaller factors in innocent people dying.

That leaves geographic location as the only reason why so many more innocent people get shot in the US? I find that hard to believe.

So Washington D.C., the U.S. city with the highest rate of gun violence in the country, is a 100% gun free city. Absolutely no firearms of any type are permitted by civilians. There are no exceptions to this. You can be fully legal and in full compliance of VA state law with your pistol, but I'd you enter the district, you are committing a felony. This place, mind you, has the highest rate of gun violence in the nation.

Now, Bumfuck, OK, is a place where open carry is allowed. You can go to the mall, get lunch, a new outfit, new watch, a pistol, ammo, and holster, and walk out the door with it loaded on your hip. Bumfuck, OK hasn't had a gun crime in 50 years, not since Ciecel caught Jethrow courting his wife one night.

So if you make it illegal for Jo Bob in Bumfuck to own a gun, this will fix the violence problem in D.C. where guns have always been illegal?

Nothing will fix the problem, there are options that over a long period of time will help reduce the violence problem.

Yes, like parents being more involved in their children's lives. Helping them with homework, encouraging good behavior, punishing bad behavior. Grounding kids for breaking curfew, taking away their internet privileges for cyber bullying, telling them "no" when they want certain games or movies because they are too violent for kids, encouraging them to participate in community events...

Also tell them that they will never be allowed to skydive if they don't straighten up.

[Driver1 0]

kallend

***My reaction, were I to whiteness this happening, would be to draw the concealed Glock 23 that I am properly vetted and licensed to carry and neutralize the threat. Instead of 15 dead and 10 wounded, there would be maybe 2 dead and 1 or 2 wound, with one of the dead being the attacker. Those numbers of course are based on the fact that I whiteness begin shooting and the number of shoots he gets off before I can react to it.

Of course, if we had sensible laws in place that make it really really difficult for mentally unbalanced people to get hold of guns, then no-one would be dead and no-one wounded.

Then he'd still get a few uber sharp knives and start slashing. Or get behind the wheel of a car and start mowing people down. You can't completely disarm a psychopath, unless he's locked in a safe room at the psych ward or prison cell.

There will be no addressing the customers as "Bitches", "Morons" or "Retards"!

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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Yes, like parents being more involved in their children's lives. Helping them with homework, encouraging good behavior, punishing bad behavior. Grounding kids for breaking curfew, taking away their internet privileges for cyber bullying, telling them "no" when they want certain games or movies because they are too violent for kids, encouraging them to participate in community events...

Like in the 60s and 70s? Murder rate was higher then, than it is now, at least from the mid-sixties on.

[Coreeece 2]

kallend

The USA has the worst record of gun murders of any first world nation. And that is NOT because Americans are just nastier people than Australians, Brits and Canadians.

It could be...It does seem that we have a much more violent cultural upbringing - and the gang life in this country is out of control.

Also, Normiss posted a link awhile back about how almost every mass murderer in the last 20 years or so was on psychotropic drugs. The article is no longer available and I don't have the time to dig around for it right now.

I also read something that psychotropic drug use is more prevalent in the U.S than any other country, especially among younger people...so it might be something to look into.

Overall, the U.S needs to find common ground and fix itself from the inside out, because right now we're just trying whitewash all of our issues with law...

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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Overall, the U.S needs to find common ground and fix itself from the inside out

Very much agreed.

Unfortunately cooperation and compromise are signs of weakness these days. Everything seems to get framed in an us vs. them type of argument.

[jbscout2002 1]

I believe there is absolutely zero chance of any one of my guns falling into the hands of a criminal, or someone unstable, or a child, because every gun I have is secured in a heavy duty fireproof safe that is bolted to the floor, except the one on the night stand that is in a lock box and requires a finger code to open.

However, if there was a realistic system that took all guns out of the equation and guaranteed that criminals couldn't get them, I'd gladly surrender all of mine and keep a baseball bat next to the bed. I prefer to hunt deer with a bow anyways.

I don't think I've fired more than a handful of rounds since I started skydiving anyways, because I have no budget left over for ammo. Until that system is in place, I think I'll keep arguing for to right to bear arms.

[rushmc 23]

SkyDekker

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Overall, the U.S needs to find common ground and fix itself from the inside out

Very much agreed.

Unfortunately cooperation and compromise are signs of weakness these days. Everything seems to get framed in an us vs. them type of argument.

No, the problem is not properly identified.

Gun violence is a symptom

Not the root problem

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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Gun violence is a symptom

A symptom of what?

[jbscout2002 1]

rushmc

***

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Overall, the U.S needs to find common ground and fix itself from the inside out

Very much agreed.

Unfortunately cooperation and compromise are signs of weakness these days. Everything seems to get framed in an us vs. them type of argument.

No, the problem is not properly identified.

Gun violence is a symptom

Not the root problem

The problem is Violence. People put catch phrases on it. Gun violence, gang violence, domestic violence, sexual violence. The focus isn't on the "violence" part, it's on the catch phrase.

When a shooter is killed in the attack, there is no one to take out your anger on, no one to answer the "why" question. With no one to lash out at, people focus their anger on the gun and people who believe in owning them.

Then the issue itself gets lost in the argument of gun rights verse gun control. I fight gun control because it criminalizes me and restricts my rights over something I had nothing to do with, while doing nothing to curve the violence in any way. Gun control people fight me because they think guns shouldn't be allowed in our society, and that these new laws will eliminate the presents of guns in America.