God isn’t fixing this

[rehmwa 2]

jakee

Hiking and jump in the mountains every day this summer probably had a positive effect on my psyche. I'm back working for the winter season though so we'll see how it goes

sounds like a good summer - You read his post to a deeper level than I chose/cared to. I just enjoy a good rant.

Blues


Coreece - I'm pretty much in line with Bolas here. The 'special' treatment is the tax exempt status. Not removal of the tax exempt status and the subjective fallout you are invisioning. I know you consider differently, but I just don't see it.


However, for the good that some churches try to do, I still only consider them a service provider combined with an entertainment function. Even if I were to acknowledge a higher purpose, I'd still consider that purpose to internal to the individual, and that the church itself still only functions as service to their members to exercise that purpose. i.e., at best a specialized club or gym or the like. (I don't mean it to be insulting - I intend for it to be analogous).

If one wanted to make the argument in today's PC world, I'd take it farther and put forth the position that if we are on the road to providing health care to all, then the churches can be considered equivalent health care providers (mentally, emotionally, counseling, etc) and make the gov pay for it.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[normiss 800]

God frowning on him is costing him $500/day
Ok, it's actually the city, but still.

[rehmwa 2]

normiss

God frowning on him is costing him $500/day
Ok, it's actually the city, but still.

So, if he has 3, NO WAIT,,, 4 neighbors -

1 - Neighbor A is religious right wing. They politely ignore him for a day or two, but they get rude a bit more each day. Next, they hold prayer vigils for this guy, culminating in a march in protest in front of his house, (until they notice they are marching with Neighbor B and then they politely run inside). Once the straw breaks, they launch a petty internet attack against the guy and try to ruin him by getting their friends to shop elsewhere than his business. Finally, they sneak out one night and destroy the scene because they just can't take it. They don't talk to the guy until it's a stupid confrontation during the protest march. And then it loud and totally anti-productive. They never EVER talk to him or his kids or grandkids, yey! unto the 4th generation they stare at him and his progeny with stink eye.

2 - Neighbor B is a religious lefty type. They politely ignore him for a day or two, but they get rude a bit more each day. Next, they talk to their friends in the coffee shop wondering how someone else in society has ruined his sensitivity to their religious beliefs. Finally culminating in a march in protest in front of his house, (until they notice they are marching with Neighbor A and then they tell Neighbor A to leave because even though they are on the same side, they can't let him participate because he does for the wrong reasons - even though they didn't bother to ask his reasons, but REALLY, it has to be). Once the straw breaks, they launch a petty internet attack against the guy and try to ruin him by getting their friends to shop elsewhere than his business. They next go to city hall and try to force a daily fine and new law outlawing scenes like this - the Facebook traffic is worldwide now. They wonder publically why 'someone else' or the government just doesn't do something. Finally, they sneak out one night and replace the scene with socially correct, gender and race neutral characters and remove the animals in bondage in the scene - for the children, and society - they publicly blame Neighbor A for this. They don't talk to the guy until it's a stupid confrontation during the protest march. And then it loud and totally anti-productive. they call him racist, even though they aren't sure if the zombies are considered a race or not. Eventually the scene comes down and they all get along together until the next thing comes along. Repeat. Funny, they don't talk about it in church - too busy on their cellphones.

3 - Neighbor C is just a regular guy that's religious - he grabs a 6 pack of beer and goes over to the guy's house and notes that the scene is a bit insulting and asks what's the point. The guy listens to him and apologizes and notes it wasn't the intent, he just thought it was clever and funny. Neighbor C understands and laughs it off. They go golfing together that weekend and nobody has hurt feelings anymore. neighbor C creates his own scene the way he wants it to look and thinks it's pretty decent too.

4 - Neighbor D isn't religious at all. he thinks it funny. builds his own and they have nerfgun zombie wars on Sunday mornings. Sometimes with Neighbor C. Neighbors A and B pretend they don't exist at this time.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[jakee 1,489]

Quote

So, if he has 3 neighbors -

4 - Neighbor D...

It's a christmas miracle. Like with the loafs and the fishes.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[rehmwa 2]

jakee

Quote

So, if he has 3 neighbors -

4 - Neighbor D...

It's a christmas miracle. Like with the loafs and the fishes.

I added the 4th guy after the fact. I like the 4th guy. He's not so wound up. And I like using both numbering and letters for counting


AND - I believe it was the loafers and the fistings....but it's been awhile since I've read anything from the bible....I could be wrong

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[mirage62 0]

Quote

I don't see what that had to do with voting. But if you think laws are being voted for and passed that infringe your beliefs then hey, your reply to me applies equally to you. Get more votes or get over it.

Huh? Man are you reading anything I wrote? Where did I complain about anything that has been voted on?

And through my comments I've made it clear you want something changed you get enough VOTES to change it.

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[jakee 1,489]

Quote

AND - I believe it was the loafers and the fistings....but it's been awhile since I've read anything from the bible....I could be wrong

I'm pretty sure the fisting was all in the Old Testament.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jakee 1,489]

mirage62

Quote

I don't see what that had to do with voting. But if you think laws are being voted for and passed that infringe your beliefs then hey, your reply to me applies equally to you. Get more votes or get over it.

Huh? Man are you reading anything I wrote? Where did I complain about anything that has been voted on?

And through my comments I've made it clear you want something changed you get enough VOTES to change it.

What the fuck are you talking about? You made the voting comment in direct reply to a discussion about vocal criticism. How can you vote to stop people criticising you?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[mirage62 0]

Quote

Which is it?

A "majority rules" country or one where the constitution protects the minority from the "tyranny of the majority"?

Civil rights (back in the 60s), gay rights (this past year), even gun rights and women's reproductive rights (abortion rights).

All of those are good examples where the majority cannot strip the minority of their rights.

And as far as I can tell abortion is still legal (good) civil rights are still in place (good) and the gay rights have finally started to get right (GREAT)

So I'm proud to say it is and was and hopefully will remain "A "majority rules" country AND one where the constitution protects the minority from the "tyranny of the majority"?"

The idea that we the people can't disagree and still get along with compromise is the issue. In my comments here I have largely supported separation of church and state, gay rights and abortion - yet the idea still stuck in several people head here that you can't be a Christian and have these views.

The PRESS is what creates this IMO. If you don't go to church, hang around with people of faith than you are listening to the press (probably the side that most favors your position) or you are recalling from when you did go to church?

The far right church goers and the far left atheist are the problems. Actually far right and far left people in general are just a big fat pain in the ass.

If you fall in one of these groups - sorry but you all are fucking up a great country.

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[jakee 1,489]

Quote

In my comments here I have largely supported separation of church and state, gay rights and abortion - yet the idea still stuck in several people head here that you can't be a Christian and have these views.

Who said that? Where? When?

As far as I can see that comment is as pure a fiction as Rush claiming that liberals think all christians are worse than the worst muslims.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Bolas 5]

mirage62

The far right church goers and the far left atheist are the problems.

I'd hazard to guess there is a much greater percentage of overall churchgoers that are far right then there are atheists that are far left as Atheism, being a non belief tends not to influence one politically.

Quote

Actually far right and far left people in general are just a big fat pain in the ass.

Agreed. Extremism in any form tends to lead to intolerance of other ideas and compromise.

Quote

If you fall in one of these groups - sorry but you all are fucking up a great country.

Only if we let them.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[mirage62 0]

Right, you win. For what its worth I don't listen to Rush...he's a far right nut case....but apparently you listen often.

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[jakee 1,489]

mirage62

Right, you win.

If all it takes for me to 'win' is to ask you where the opinion you claim exists is actually stated... you should probably be a little less concerned with 'losing' than with the fact that your perception genuinely does not match reality.

Quote

For what its worth I don't listen to Rush...he's a far right nut case....but apparently you listen often.

Rush the guy who posts here.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[mirage62 0]

Dude you have a high opinion of yourself, don't you?

In my opinion - which you are free to disagree with because in general that's what you seem to need to do - Christian in forum discussion with a certain group here are lumped into a group (anti abortion, pro guns. Trump lovers)

That's no different than certain hard right posters doing the same.

Perhaps if you can't see THAT ...... you should read a little slower and get that big chip off you minority shoulder? Your reality is your perception, no different or better than mine.

Relax. Maybe go jump.

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[GeorgiaDon 362]

Quote

The 'special' treatment is the tax exempt status.

I recall that we have gone over this more than once, but here goes again. The tax exempt status of churches is a direct consequence of the 1st amendment. The reasoning is this: taxes necessarily demand that one entity (the one doing the taxing) has authority over the entity that is paying. Certainly there have to be penalties for failure to pay taxes. The courts long ago decided that governments taxing churches would make churches subordinate to government authority, and that would violate the 1st amendment. If you want to tax churches, you should recognize that that also gives the government power to control churches, effectively placing government in control of organized religion. That would be a significant erosion of religious freedom. It seems perverse, but the right to freedom of religious belief is incompatible with taxing churches. Given the choice, I'll side with religious freedom (including the freedom to reject religion).

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[Bolas 5]

If specific laws were made for taxing religious institutions, particularly ones that targeted one religion more than another, sure.

But that's not what we're proposing. We're proposing no special treatment or designation for them. They're treated like any other for-profit business, nonprofit, or charity based on their books.

Might there be some churches that are determined to be for-profit and they choose to not pay? Sure. And the same penalties that apply to other businesses would apply to them.

Just the same as banks can foreclose on a church if they have a mortgage and don't pay it. But even if some houses of worship are seized, that's not going to end an entire religion.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[jakee 1,489]

Quote

In my opinion - which you are free to disagree with because in general that's what you seem to need to do - Christian in forum discussion with a certain group here are lumped into a group (anti abortion, pro guns. Trump lovers)

I do disagree with you, because it's not true.

Quote

Perhaps if you can't see THAT ...... you should read a little slower and get that big chip off you minority shoulder? Your reality is your perception, no different or better than mine.

In this case, my perception is better than yours because what you are saying is not true. Reality is that these things are either written down or they're not. So, if you are right you are in the position of being able to prove me wrong. Simply find these posts that say every christian believes these things (not just arguments with people like Ron who do believe it) and show that you're right. Simples. I have no idea why that suggestion has made you so angry

From my side of the discussion, while it's a logical impossibility to demonstrate that such posts don't exist, I'll say that I'm pretty sure that Wendy is a Christian and has posted about being a regular churchgoer and have you ever seen anyone accuse her of having the faintest hint of a fundamentalist view? Of course you haven't.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jakee 1,489]

Quote

The reasoning is this: taxes necessarily demand that one entity (the one doing the taxing) has authority over the entity that is paying. Certainly there have to be penalties for failure to pay taxes. The courts long ago decided that governments taxing churches would make churches subordinate to government authority, and that would violate the 1st amendment.

Do newspapers pay taxes?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[wmw999 2,447]

Ya know, if enough people say they perceive something as being true, then maybe the presentation needs to be addressed. Because most of us write to be read and understood (yeah, I know, not all of us ), so we need to take into account the audience.

If you're writing only to the people who are just like you, or who agree with you, then the ones who read it differently aren't wrong. Any more than we are, when we get tired of the inside-joke haw-haws about hour stupid liberals are.

More succinctly: politeness isn't only for people you agree with. And PC isn't just when it's something you disagree with.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[rehmwa 2]

GeorgiaDon

Quote

The 'special' treatment is the tax exempt status.

I recall that we have gone over this more than once, but here goes again. The tax exempt status of churches is a direct consequence of the 1st amendment. The reasoning is this: taxes necessarily demand that one entity (the one doing the taxing) has authority over the entity that is paying. Certainly there have to be penalties for failure to pay taxes. The courts long ago decided that governments taxing churches would make churches subordinate to government authority, and that would violate the 1st amendment. If you want to tax churches, you should recognize that that also gives the government power to control churches, effectively placing government in control of organized religion. That would be a significant erosion of religious freedom. It seems perverse, but the right to freedom of religious belief is incompatible with taxing churches. Given the choice, I'll side with religious freedom (including the freedom to reject religion).

Don

that's actually a good summary of the reason. I understand it and agree with you. My position is mostly based on a 'personal' opinion that 'organized' religion is a business and is not 'special' or needs special treatment more than any other service provider. Freedom of religion should be about protecting the INDIVIDUAL from being biased against by the government. Not some organization. So, if you decide to put a box on the tax form that asks one to identify their religion, and then have different tax tables depending on which box you check? that's bad. So is taking anyone checking a specific box and jailing them, beating them, taking their property, etc in any way that is not equal to people checking different boxes....

- of course, I'm VERY much in the minority and certainly not in line with the intent of the founding fathers. it's just an opinion. Mostly based on a very cynical view of "organized" religion of all kinds. (yep, I agree it's a 'perverse' situation as you note)

Also, you do know that the idea that taxing someone gives them power over them - only works if they tax them differently than anyone else. Unless one is an interfering weirdo that considers taxing something to be a social experimental control mechanism rather than just a means to collect money to pay the bills.

since 95% of everyone pretty much doesn't operate like me, though, I have to nod and support your view as noted.

Jakee's comment on the news media is a good one...and analogous to the other specified rights as well....

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

wmw999

Ya know, if enough people say they perceive something as being true, then maybe the presentation needs to be addressed. Because most of us write to be read and understood (yeah, I know, not all of us ), so we need to take into account the audience.

If you're writing only to the people who are just like you, or who agree with you, then the ones who read it differently aren't wrong. Any more than we are, when we get tired of the inside-joke haw-haws about hour stupid liberals are.

More succinctly: politeness isn't only for people you agree with. And PC isn't just when it's something you disagree with.

Wendy P.

You are so great sometimes

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Bolas 5]

Quote

Freedom of religion should be about protecting the INDIVIDUAL from being biased against by the government. Not some organization.

Hey now, organizations and corporations are people too.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.