Charlotte NC protests

[bigbearfng 18]

Wall them off and let them keep killing each other. Fuck those thugs.

[winsor 236]

bigbearfng

Wall them off and let them keep killing each other. Fuck those thugs.

I've been watching the social dynamic for quite some time now, and the pattern is somewhat fixed.

When people get upset about something or another and riot, nobody in their right mind will either issue a loan to rebuild or write an insurance policy for property or a business in the affected neighborhood, and the tax base goes to hell.

In a neighborhood where people write letters to the editor instead of rioting cops are not nervous, insurance is relatively cheap, schools are good and so forth.

Regardless of the merits of Michael Brown's demise, Ferguson, MO is doomed. Watts is still a shithole. Detroit is toast. Etc., etc..

If the social groups given to rioting wish for sympathy, it's in the dictionary somewhere between 'shit' and 'syphilis.'

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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I've been watching the social dynamic for quite some time now, and the pattern is somewhat fixed.

When people get upset about something or another and riot, nobody in their right mind will either issue a loan to rebuild or write an insurance policy for property or a business in the affected neighborhood, and the tax base goes to hell.

Considering these riots are supposedly taking place in the business district of Charlotte I doubt this is true here.

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If the social groups given to rioting wish for sympathy, it's in the dictionary somewhere between 'shit' and 'syphilis.'

For people like you it is yes.

[mirage62 0]

I think I have come to crux of the problem, if the following it true:

1. LEO as a % of population deal with people of color on a more regular basis in violate situations.
2. This emotionally trains the LEO to be more aggressive with people of color because LEO are humans to and although "part of the job" can be occasionally getting your ass beat...they naturally enough don't like that.
3. As a total population of people of color the % of violate, thugs is very, very low. LEO are much more likely to confront a very reasonable person of color - BUT - the survival instinct tends to minimize that fact (to a degree)

I don't have a clue how to fix it. We generally don't pay our LEO well....and I wonder if that impacts the level of ability.

As far as the people that use this as an excuse to rob stores they should just go to jail.....

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[normiss 806]

We will never arrest and shoot our way out of this problem.
Those are some of the things that have created the issue.

[mirage62 0]

Well addressing the title of the thread....

A certain element has "learned" that a good riot is great cover for robbing and stealing.

While we may not shoot our way out of THAT problem (we shouldn't)...I disagree that we can't arrest the people that cause destruction and robbery during which are otherwise peaceful and constructive protest.

Be interesting to see how many people who were charged after the Ferguson riots.....

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[normiss 806]

IIRC, there were approximately 400 people arrested following the rioting in Ferguson.
Arresting people for protesting is wrong IMO, that was my intent in my previous comment.
A large number of peaceful protestors seem to get swept up in the madness of a military type response to the protests - although it is sometimes easy to see why that's the go-to approach.
I don't think the military approach will ever work in that it creates tension and distrust.

[mirage62 0]

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IIRC, there were approximately 400 people arrested following the rioting in Ferguson.
Arresting people for protesting is wrong IMO

You mean protesting peacefully - right? As far as burning buildings.....robbing.... you support these people going to jail?

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[normiss 806]

yessir

[wmw999 2,460]

In addition, police deal with a much larger proportion than most of with people who are actually guilty of some recent crime. That will also color ones automatic reaction.

However, since the Constitution does have that "innocent until proven guilty" thing, the very natural tendency to trust that the expansion of their experience is valid is both wrong and illegal. If 30% of the people you deal with are actually guilty (number picked out of the air), that means that 70% aren't.

That's more than twice 30%, but I'll bet that there isn't a 2:1 chance that some random person on their beat will be treated politely, and as if they were innocent. Therefore, they don't expect to be treated politely, and what besides fear is their incentive to treat police politely? Fear is a short-term incentive, not a long-term one.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[mirage62 0]

All good and true points, as normal from you.

I don't have a clue how to actually overcome these things. What really bugs me is that by and far (IMO) most LEO are good hard working people.....and obviously the black community is the same.

While there obsoletely are some bad apples in both groups - the few are causing problems for the majority.

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[wmw999 2,460]

It starts with the top (for an example, look at the current Wells Fargo brouhaha). And you have to make the social desire for honesty and transparency greater than the feeling of brotherhood/sisterhood that causes one office to both understand how someone having a bad day can make a bad decision (which is true), and then participate in covering it up.

The police carry lethal force, and an authority to use it, pretty much all the time. With this goes greater responsibility, not just greater authority. Unfortunately, we dont pay enough to guarantee this, nor does police work naturally attract some of those people.

Answers? None are easy, none will work all the time, and none will be forever answers. People change.

We start by looking at where it seems to be working better, and looking for common points. Don't turn them into metrics, because then departments will just develop themselves around them.

And thanks. I always enjoy reading your thoughtful posts.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[billvon 3,008]

Quote

I think I have come to crux of the problem, if the following it true:

1. LEO as a % of population deal with people of color on a more regular basis in violate situations.
2. This emotionally trains the LEO to be more aggressive with people of color because LEO are humans to and although "part of the job" can be occasionally getting your ass beat...they naturally enough don't like that.
3. As a total population of people of color the % of violate, thugs is very, very low. LEO are much more likely to confront a very reasonable person of color - BUT - the survival instinct tends to minimize that fact (to a degree)

Good summary. And that is self-perpetuating to a degree as well.

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As far as the people that use this as an excuse to rob stores they should just go to jail.....

Also agreed.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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I don't have a clue how to fix it.

I agree with your summary. In order to fix something, the parties involved have to agree there is a problem first. Then there has to be some agreement on what the actual problem is.

So far, from what I have seen, LEO indicates there is no real problem. Just a one off here or there.

On top of that there are many people who likely agree with this idiot, who also happens to be a Trump Campaign Chair in Ohio:

Quote

Miller also dismissed the racial tensions of the 1960s, when she said she graduated from high school. “Growing up as a kid, there was no racism, believe me. We were just all kids going to school.”

Asked about segregation and the civil rights movement, she replied: “I never experienced it. I never saw that as anything.”

Miller added: “I don’t think there was any racism until Obama got elected.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/sep/22/trump-ohio-campaign-chair-no-racism-before-obama?CMP=twt_gu

[normiss 806]

After hearing the Chief in Charlotte speak a bit ago, I'm starting to lean towards thinking the cop that shot the guy deserves to be charged.

[mirage62 0]

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After hearing the Chief in Charlotte speak a bit ago, I'm starting to lean towards thinking the cop that shot the guy deserves to be charged.

I missed something. All I've heard is that they have video and witnesses that the fellow failed to drop the weapon.

I don't understand how it helps to hold the video though.....

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[Elisha 1]

mirage62

...

I don't have a clue how to fix it. We generally don't pay our LEO well....and I wonder if that impacts the level of ability.

...

Can someone in the know comment on pay? ISTM that LEO are paid VERY well...at least in my neck of the woods.

And I doubt that it's pay, as there's situations of police brutality locally where I live with well paid LEO.

[normiss 806]

Chief says no evidence of the gun being pointed at the cops and he refuses to release the video.
I smell a lawsuit(s).

[mirage62 0]

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We start by looking at where it seems to be working better, and looking for common points. Don't turn them into metrics, because then departments will just develop themselves around them.

That's whats driving me nuts. We don't (as a society) seem to want to pay our LEO much....

It seems to work better in England and Germany but it's a lot harder to become a LEO over there and it pays better.


The police carry lethal force, and an authority to use it, pretty much all the time. With this goes greater responsibility, not just greater authority.
***

Yep, I agree 100%

To me at the very minimum EVERY officer that carries a weapon should have a be required to have on a body video - but "we the people" have to pay for it. It needs to be turned on at start of watch and turn off only at the end. It should be basically tamper proof.

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[kelpdiver 2]

normiss

Chief says no evidence of the gun being pointed at the cops and he refuses to release the video.
I smell a lawsuit(s).

where the gun is pointed isn't germane - if you wait till it's pointed at you, you're taking fire. The question is was there a gun or a book in his hand.

The non release of video seems to be some throwback legislation in the state. Seems to be a trend for NC.

[mirage62 0]

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Can someone in the know comment on pay? ISTM that LEO are paid VERY well...at least in my neck of the woods.

And I doubt that it's pay, as there's situations of police brutality locally where I live with well paid LEO.

My brother is a detective.....he makes less that 45k a year with over 20 years service.

FWIW I realize in some big city's the pay is better but over all the pay for local small departments isn't high at all.

As far as you local police brutality....I'm sorry

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[SkyDekker 1,465]

mirage62

Quote

Can someone in the know comment on pay? ISTM that LEO are paid VERY well...at least in my neck of the woods.

And I doubt that it's pay, as there's situations of police brutality locally where I live with well paid LEO.

My brother is a detective.....he makes less that 45k a year with over 20 years service.

FWIW I realize in some big city's the pay is better but over all the pay for local small departments isn't high at all.

As far as you local police brutality....I'm sorry

Base salary for a Toronto Police officer is around $100,000 CAD

Ontario Provincial Police base after 3 years is $90,000 CAD

Smaller town: Regina police: after 5 years $100,000 CAD

These are all base salaries, pension and full benefits are additional. All of them can retire after 25 years with a pension equal to the average of their 5 best years of earning. Pension is fully indexed against inflation.

[mirage62 0]

I'd think that the above is a good indication of the way it should be done. But of course we as society don't want to pay it.

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[gowlerk 2,216]

mirage62

I'd think that the above is a good indication of the way it should be done. But of course we as society don't want to pay it.

You get what you pay for. Perhaps that's part of the problem. But we have had misbehaving cops, cops covering up misdeeds of their brothers, mistreatment of first nations people sometimes resulting in deaths, rogue police raiding the evidence locker for drugs, and powerful police unions who inappropriately support wrong doers at times.

The police you have are a reflection of the society you have. They are not just bothers and sisters to each other. They are your brothers as well. Cops are people like any other. They make mistakes, and some have evil motivations. They just need to be held accountable like everyone else is.

Except of course bank executives. It turns out they have no accountability at all!

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[Bolas 5]

normiss

IIRC, there were approximately 400 people arrested following the rioting in Ferguson.
Arresting people for protesting is wrong IMO, that was my intent in my previous comment.
A large number of peaceful protestors seem to get swept up in the madness of a military type response to the protests - although it is sometimes easy to see why that's the go-to approach.
I don't think the military approach will ever work in that it creates tension and distrust.

The tension was there long before the "military approach."

Per this local reporter video the police were being blocked from pulling back.
http://www.fox46charlotte.com/news/local-news/206764728-story

Never understand why people who are mad about police violence think reacting violently to police, looting, and rioting is the answer.

If they really want to make the police look foolish when they're in "military mode" all they have to do is be completely non-violent and compliant. If one or two "bad apples" in the protest group starts being violent, give that person up to authorities to preserve the integrity of the protest.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.