Russiagate

[Phil1111 1,149]

AlanS

******Nick Harding interview on NPR's Fresh Air.

Interesting discussion about Trump and Russia with some new information I've not seen before. This journalist seems very credible to me.

https://www.npr.org/2017/11/21/565654507/journalist-investigating-trump-and-russia-says-full-picture-is-one-of-collusion

One interesting point is while Russia's attempt to influence this election might have tactically been a success, since they got the candidate they wanted, it has been a strategic failure, since sanctions have not been removed.

The key question is now that the truth is coming out about Russia's attempt to influence elections, will they keep trying it.

This is the most disturbing part about this story. I see republicans and democrats so intent on attacking each other that they forget their is a larger enemy looming in the shadows.

I think they got just the result they were looking for which is to sow confusion and create infighting and thereby sully our reputation on the international scene. We have half the country trying to ban people because of their religion, that's enough for terrorist recruiters to work with.

Russia did get the result they were looking for tactically, and they will continue to sow divisions and chaos unless we in the west (republican, democrat, conservative, centrist and liberal) don't wise up and see the bigger threat. They can inflict deeper wounds to our democracy in the future.

I'm most concerned with how deeply Russian linked hacker got into our election computers. The got the full voter rolls in more than half the states and if they wanted could have corrupted them just before the elections. This is a story that isn't getting the attention it deserves!

We need to know the full truth how Trump interacted with Russia and all the links, etc. But just as important we need to understand the process and machinery Putin uses tried to influence elections in democratic countries, to be inoculated from it in the future.

I personally feel it would be better for this country for trump to lose the next election fair and square to a centrist non-controversial candidate by an informed electorate, rather than have this investigation the result in a divisive impeachment of the president.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/we-would-impeach-trump-at-our-peril/2017/09/25/71c6f4aa-a21f-11e7-ade1-76d061d56efa_story.html?utm_term=.42849fc79e02

If we proceed down an impeachment path while not bother fixing the flaws in our election systems, we are open to more hacking on election night in the future to the point where hacking could cause the result of a divisive campaign to truly be in doubt.

This should be ringing alarm bells, but I get the sense that republicans and democrats are so intent in sticking it to each other that they don't see the bigger threat to all of us.

Agree. IMO there are elected representatives who recognize the danger. But partisanship, or tribalism takes precedent. For better or worse they are aligning with trump to move legislation ahead.

A related story:
http://thehill.com/opinion/white-house/363060-missing-big-picture-in-flynn-plea-trump-team-crippled-american-diplomatic

[ryoder 1,590]

billvon

>Trump, via Twitter, admitted to obstruction of justice today.

No, no, not at all. Didn't you hear? His LAWYER wrote that tweet. That's one of the first things you learn in law school - when things get rough, send out public admissions of your client's guilt.

Looks like they are laying the grounds for "Trump never said any of this stuff. How do you know he really tweeted that, and it wasn't from (latest guy we threw under the bus?)"

That lawyer is really throwing himself under the (Access Hollywood) bus!
https://www.newyorker.com/humor/borowitz-report/trumps-lawyer-claims-to-be-voice-on-access-hollywood-tape

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[JerryBaumchen 1,364]

Hi Robert,

Quote

That lawyer

My brother once said that the only people who are allowed to lie in a courtroom are the lawyers.

And this much is true: “Let’s be clear,” Dowd said. “Since Donald Trump was elected President, he has done nothing.”



Jerry Baumchen

[billvon 2,995]

From NBC:

"Dowd told NBC News that he drafted the tweet and then sent it to White House Social Media Director Dan Scavino to publish."

So (a reporter asked) could we see the draft that you sent to Dan Scavino?

"When asked for the original email he sent to Scavino, Dowd said he dictated it orally."

[Stumpy 284]

billvon

From NBC:

"Dowd told NBC News that he drafted the tweet and then sent it to White House Social Media Director Dan Scavino to publish."

So (a reporter asked) could we see the draft that you sent to Dan Scavino?

"When asked for the original email he sent to Scavino, Dowd said he dictated it orally."

I never thought a lawyer could be a worse liar than trump but it seems thats the case!

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[ryoder 1,590]

Stumpy

I never thought a lawyer could be a worse liar than trump but it seems thats the case!

A lawyer lies when there is a reason.
Trump lies constantly, even when there is nothing to be gained.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[billvon 2,995]

>I never thought a lawyer could be a worse liar than trump but it seems thats
>the case!

Looks like it might not be working, though:

==============
WH lawyer told Trump that Flynn misled FBI and Pence

By Kara Scannell CNN

Updated 2:01 PM ET, Mon December 4, 2017

Washington (CNN)The White House's chief lawyer told President Donald Trump in January he believed then-national security adviser Michael Flynn had misled the FBI and lied to Vice President Mike Pence and should be fired, a source familiar with the matter said Monday.
===============

So Trump did know that Flynn lied to the FBI when he asked Comey to back off.

[ryoder 1,590]

LA Times: Special counsel backs out of bail deal with Paul Manafort, saying he tried to hide a public relations effort

http://www.latimes.com/politics/washington/la-na-pol-essential-washington-updates-paul-manafort-secretly-worked-on-1512425542-htmlstory.html

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[billvon 2,995]

>Special counsel backs out of bail deal with Paul Manafort, saying he tried to hide a public relations effort

The details about this are noteworthy. While under house arrest, he ghost-wrote an editorial for a Russian about his work in the Ukraine.

That bears repeating. While under house arrest for his illegal work with Russia, which he denies, he ghost-wrote an editorial for a Russian about his work in the Ukraine. Which is illegal under the terms of his house arrest. (Apparently since his name wasn't going to go on the editorial, he figured no one would find out.)

I am trying to picture how you could do something stupider than this. I mean, perhaps you could tweet about how you really knew Flynn was guilty of lying to the FBI.

It's also going to be fun to hear the Trumpies spin this. "Look, he NEVER COLLUDED with Russia! THIS collusion is a completely different kind of collusion with Russia, and it was after he was arrested, so it doesn't count. And the other stuff - the money laundering for the Russians - was before he was working for Trump. So there's this narrow window from March to August 2016 where he wasn't really colluding at ALL with the Russians."

[jakee 1,497]

ryoder

LA Times: Special counsel backs out of bail deal with Paul Manafort, saying he tried to hide a public relations effort

http://www.latimes.com/politics/washington/la-na-pol-essential-washington-updates-paul-manafort-secretly-worked-on-1512425542-htmlstory.html

So Trump is in the shit for things published under his name that he claims were written by other people and Manafort's in the shit for trying to hide things that he wrote by publishing them under someone else's name...at what point does it move beyond farce into pure slapstick?

Let me know when there's a custard pie fight in the oval office

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[headoverheels 333]

jakee

Let me know when there's a custard pie fight in the oval office

That would be on his 1000th day in office, should he make it that long.

[Phil1111 1,149]

If some pizzas were sent over to Mueller's offices. They could work overtime and get trump off to Martha Stewart's prison before summer.

"K.T. McFarland, President Trump’s former deputy national security adviser, sent an email during the transition that appears to undermine her testimony before Congress in which she denied knowing anything about Michael Flynn's contacts with top Kremlin officials, The New York Times reported Monday."
http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/363213-mcfarland-contradicts-herself-on-knowledge-flynns-contacts-with

Perhaps trump will be best know for creating new jobs in the prison system.

[winsor 236]

ryoder

***

I never thought a lawyer could be a worse liar than trump but it seems thats the case!

A lawyer lies when there is a reason.
Trump lies constantly, even when there is nothing to be gained.

Trump does NOT lie. To lie, one must have some concept of what constitutes truth and, perhaps, care what said truth is and I can see nothing to suggest that Trump meets those criteria.

The Donald is given to blurting out anything that crosses his mind, which results in a real dog's breakfast of garbled and misshapen thoughts winding up on the transcript.

You give him too much credit.

[JerryBaumchen 1,364]

Hi winsor,

Quote

one must have some concept of what constitutes truth

Now that we can agree on.



Jerry Baumchen

[AlanS 1]

Phil1111

***...

This should be ringing alarm bells, ....

Agree. IMO there are elected representatives who recognize the danger. But partisanship, or tribalism takes precedent. For better or worse they are aligning with trump to move legislation ahead.

A related story:
http://thehill.com/opinion/white-house/363060-missing-big-picture-in-flynn-plea-trump-team-crippled-american-diplomatic

The media is focusing on Russian interference in the general election against Hillary Clinton via wikileaks, but I think there is an additional layer to the story which isn't getting the investigation it needs, and that is Russian interference into the presidential primary elections too.

Clinton isn't the only politician Putin doesn't like. He also doesn't like Marco Rubio and John McCain. I am aware of cases when Putin's St. Petersburg troll-farm went against McCain, and am also aware they they tried to infiltrate Marco Rubio's campaign (just like Clinton's) before the primaries.

What I would like to know is how active was the troll farm against presidential candidates during the primary process. Now that we know some of the accounts from Twitter and Facebook you would think someone could look into that too.

I think our presidential primary process sucks and it is way more vulnerable to Putin/Russian manipulation than the general election, simply because they are smaller elections where swinging 5% fewer primary voters creates early results that effects who stays and who drops out of the presidential primary. If there is a place for Putin to influence the election it is the early primaries.

I think we need to change how the presidential primaries are done for many reasons, and the opportunity for Putin to use cyber-warfare create chaos is one of them.

This is a pretty good article on the subject. It is from July 2016, before the general election.

https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-real-paranoia-inducing-purpose-of-russian-hacks

Quote

The real effect, the Russian activists told me, was not to brainwash readers but to overwhelm social media with a flood of fake content, seeding doubt and paranoia, and destroying the possibility of using the Internet as a democratic space.

[DJL 235]

Quote

I think our presidential primary process sucks and it is way more vulnerable to Putin/Russian manipulation than the general election, simply because they are smaller elections where swinging 5% fewer primary voters creates early results that effects who stays and who drops out of the presidential primary. If there is a place for Putin to influence the election it is the early primaries.

We need to change to a "Ranked Choice" primary election. This election is a Prime example of how someone with less than 30% of the support within their own party became President of the United States.

http://www.fairvote.org/rcv

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[Phil1111 1,149]

I agree. If it hasn't happened yet, doing nothing will ensure it happens in the future. Distractions within the US political agenda have largely precluded a debate on how to respond to these attacks.

Thats not to say that the intelligence community dosn't have a good grasp on whats going on. The Senate Intelligence committee needs to get past the presidential aspects of the election. Needs to direct responses targeting Putin and his inner circle.

It should involve disclosing Putin led Russian corruption and the theft of state assets. To the Russian people. Now Putin controls the Russian media and the political discourse. But in the end only rising public anger by Russians. Will clip Putin's kleptocratic wings. End the pseudo nationalism, the pseudo imperialism that Putin uses to distract Russians. From the protections of Putin's inner circle of oligarchs by the state.

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2016/apr/03/panama-papers-money-hidden-offshore

[billvon 2,995]

Almost 1500 posts ago I started this thread off with a note about how Rence Priebus was starting to worry about a potential investigation:

"Priebus starts getting very careful about how he words his denials. . .Good practice for the investigation."

Here we are less than a year later - and it looks like his caution might have paid off. From Bloomberg:

"Mueller’s team has also been interviewing White House aides in recent weeks, including former Chief of Staff Reince Priebus, former spokesman Sean Spicer and National Security Council chief of staff Keith Kellogg, according to people familiar with the investigation."

It's fun to look back and see how hard the right wingers here were trying to sweep this under the rug and claim nothing was going on:

"Still no evidence of any kind"

"The attached Google search looks at all the reports of the 60 Minutes Story this weekend that explain college educated liberals fall for fake news the most."

"Your hero Bill Clinton . . . ."

" It looks like Bills theory is starting to break down."

"Until you can show me some influence over actual policy this will continue to be a nothing burger."

"More fake news. But this is a DNC talking point to the low information voter, I'm sure this will fail and the DNC will pull something else out of their collective asses and the MSN will put on the knee pads and service the DNC as usual."

At this point it looks like any 'servicing' to be done will be done by Manafort, Flynn et al in prison.

[JerryBaumchen 1,364]

Hi Alan,

Quote

Russian interference

We live in world where everyone wants everything right now.

The Russkies were able to interfere because many elections ( at every level ) are done via computer. Heaven for the hackers.

Here in Oregon, all elections are by paper ballot that you mail in. No going to a polling location, there are none.

While the ballots here are counted via electronics, we do have the paper ballots that can be recounted manually if necessary.

If you want to get rid of the Russkies medling, get rid of the computer voting.

Is it really that hard to get a pen out & check a box or two?

Jerry Baumchen

[normiss 801]

Hey Jerry,

It depends on the dangling chads, no?
Don't they show the intent of the voter?


Mark

[ryoder 1,590]

JerryBaumchen

Here in Oregon, all elections are by paper ballot that you mail in. No going to a polling location, there are none.

While the ballots here are counted via electronics, we do have the paper ballots that can be recounted manually if necessary.

Here in CO, I've voted by mail in every election since the turn of the century.
There are also physical polling places, but I don't know WTH anyone would want to use them, (unless they registered too late to get a mailed ballot).

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[JerryBaumchen 1,364]

Hi Mark,

Quote

It depends on the dangling chads, no?

Not here. Our ballots do not have anything to punch out. You must mark it with a black or dark blue pen. The ballot remains intact.

Jerry Baumchen

[JerryBaumchen 1,364]

Hi Robert,

Quote

Here in CO, I've voted by mail in every election since the turn of the century.

Good for you. Now tell those folks in charge in CO to make it the only way to vote; as it is here in OR.

Jerry Baumchen

[BartsDaddy 7]

JerryBaumchen

Hi Robert,

Quote

Here in CO, I've voted by mail in every election since the turn of the century.

Good for you. Now tell those folks in charge in CO to make it the only way to vote; as it is here in OR.

Jerry Baumchen

I'm curious why do you think that should be the only way to vote?

Handguns are only used to fight your way to a good rifle

[JerryBaumchen 1,364]

Hi Barts,

Quote

I'm curious why do you think that should be the only way to vote?

See Post #1495.

Jerry Baumchen

PS) I did not say 'only.'