Dr StrangeHarpper or: How I Learned to Stopped Worrying (About Global Warming) and Love CO2

[DJL 235]

brenthutch

An exception that proves the rule.

But you get it that pure financial return isn't the only factor for developing and funding new technology, right? I don't think there's any real dispute of that and it's just a matter of trying to figure out what will win in the long run. When we're talking about energy we do need it to work out in the long run and we have to take morality and health into account.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[billvon 2,991]

>An exception that proves the rule.

And the commercialization of space. And the US highway system. Lots of exceptions. Alternative energy is another exception to your "rule."

[SkyDekker 1,465]

DJL

***An exception that proves the rule.

But you get it that pure financial return isn't the only factor for developing and funding new technology, right? I don't think there's any real dispute of that and it's just a matter of trying to figure out what will win in the long run. When we're talking about energy we do need it to work out in the long run and we have to take morality and health into account.

US tax payers money has gone to:

* Development of a 10,000 MT bomb which would effectively have contaminated the earth.
* Infecting mentally retarded children with hepatitis.
* Releasing pathogens in the city of San Francisco
* Purposely denying black people treatment for syphilis to study the effect of the disease over 40 years.
* Trying to develop mind control.
* Effects of radiation on pregnant women, newborn babies and mentally handicapped people.
* Psychic remote viewing of mars.

But clearly no money should be spent on trying to develop renewable energy.

[brenthutch 444]

Yep nobody wastes money like the Federal government. As far as renewables go, when they become necessary they will develop themselves. Guided by the invisible hand of economics.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

brenthutch

Yep nobody wastes money like the Federal government. As far as renewables go, when they become necessary they will develop themselves. Guided by the invisible hand of economics.

Like the electrical system in the US?

[billvon 2,991]

>Like the electrical system in the US?

"Exactly! They've bled us dry, the bastards. They've taken everything we had, and not just from us, from our fathers, and from our fathers' fathers. And what have they ever given us in return?"

"The highway system?"

"WHAT?"

"The highway system. They funded . . ."

"Oh. Yeah, yeah. They did give us that. Uh, that's true. Yeah."

"And the space program."

"Yeah. All right. I'll grant you roads and the space program are two things that the government has done."

"And rural electrification."

"Well, yeah. Obviously electrification. I mean, that goes without saying, don't it? But apart from the grid, and the roads, and the space program, what have they . . ."

"Public health programs."

"What?"

"And public education."

"Yeah, yeah, all right, fair enough."

"And a justice system. We're safer than ever."

"Yeah, OK, they certainly know how to keep order. Let's face it. They're the only ones who could. "

"And labor laws."

"All right, but apart from the space program, roads, a justice system, the power grid, public education and public health what has the government ever done for us?"

"Well, we did win World War II . . ."

"Oh shut up!"

[brenthutch 444]

One of my favorite MP skits

How about this?

http://www.thegwpf.com/steven-koonin-a-red-team-exercise-would-strengthen-climate-science/

"Given the importance of climate projections to policy, it is remarkable that they have not been subject to a Red Team exercise. Here’s how it might work: The focus would be a published scientific report meant to inform policy such as the U.N.’s Summary for Policymakers or the U.S. Government’s National Climate Assessment. A Red Team of scientists would write a critique of that document and a Blue Team would rebut that critique. Further exchanges of documents would ensue to the point of diminishing returns. A commission would coordinate and moderate the process and then hold hearings to highlight points of agreement and disagreement, as well as steps that might resolve the latter. The process would unfold in full public view: the initial report, the exchanged documents and the hearings."

[airdvr 210]

brenthutch

One of my favorite MP skits

How about this?

http://www.thegwpf.com/steven-koonin-a-red-team-exercise-would-strengthen-climate-science/

"Given the importance of climate projections to policy, it is remarkable that they have not been subject to a Red Team exercise. Here’s how it might work: The focus would be a published scientific report meant to inform policy such as the U.N.’s Summary for Policymakers or the U.S. Government’s National Climate Assessment. A Red Team of scientists would write a critique of that document and a Blue Team would rebut that critique. Further exchanges of documents would ensue to the point of diminishing returns. A commission would coordinate and moderate the process and then hold hearings to highlight points of agreement and disagreement, as well as steps that might resolve the latter. The process would unfold in full public view: the initial report, the exchanged documents and the hearings."

Blasphemy! How dare anyone question the First Church of Climate Change and the Reverend Gore. It's settled. Please bow your heads...

Your creative love, O God, brought forth our world,
Once a garden where humans
Could taste and see the goodness of the earth.

But our eyes have been blinded
to the beauty of Creation,
to the knowledge that it is Gift,
one given so that all humans may live and flourish.

Our indifference changes the world;
Even mighty glaciers weep now.
Our disregard for our sisters and brothers
Threatens the very skies above us.
Our passivity begins to choke us, and
The excess of our lifestyles blot out the sun.

Call us to renewal, to stewardship;
Call us to solidarity to the earth and all its creatures.
Give us new vision to see the fragile beauty that remains to us;
Give us new spiritual energy to become active
In loving the world through our daily life;
Give us new voices to speak out for environmental solidarity.

Bless us again with the gift
Of being a joyful community;
Bless us with a love of your Creation
And we will glimpse your Eden once again.

Amen

Next Tuesday will be a pot luck supper to help support Fire and Brimstone Conversion to Solar committee.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[DJL 235]

brenthutch

Yep nobody wastes money like the Federal government. As far as renewables go, when they become necessary they will develop themselves. Guided by the invisible hand of economics.

Ah yes, because nobody has our best interests in mind like people trying to make money.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[DJL 235]

I gotta ask, since you keep bringing up Al Gore, what is he even doing these days? Is he relevant and is data within this conversation coming from him or are you just trying to bring up his dog and pony show from 15 years ago?

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[brenthutch 444]

Just ask Venezuela.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

brenthutch

Just ask Venezuela.

If Venezuela is such a problem, why did your president accept $500,000 from them?

[airdvr 210]

He's got a new movie

https://www.democracynow.org/2017/1/24/an_inconvenient_sequel_al_gore_on

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[brenthutch 444]

brenthutch

One of my favorite MP skits

How about this?

http://www.thegwpf.com/steven-koonin-a-red-team-exercise-would-strengthen-climate-science/

"Given the importance of climate projections to policy, it is remarkable that they have not been subject to a Red Team exercise. Here’s how it might work: The focus would be a published scientific report meant to inform policy such as the U.N.’s Summary for Policymakers or the U.S. Government’s National Climate Assessment. A Red Team of scientists would write a critique of that document and a Blue Team would rebut that critique. Further exchanges of documents would ensue to the point of diminishing returns. A commission would coordinate and moderate the process and then hold hearings to highlight points of agreement and disagreement, as well as steps that might resolve the latter. The process would unfold in full public view: the initial report, the exchanged documents and the hearings."

Bump

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

SkyDekker

***Yep nobody wastes money like the Federal government. As far as renewables go, when they become necessary they will develop themselves. Guided by the invisible hand of economics.

Like the electrical system in the US?

One of the funny things about Rural Electrification is how it killed small scale wind power.

Back in the early 20th century, there were a number of companies that made wind generators for farms. The turbine, storage batteries, even small appliances & tools that operated off the wind generated power (32v IIRC). Jacobs was one, Wincharger was another.

And this all fell by the wayside when the REI came to be.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[ryoder 1,590]

British power generation achieves first ever coal-free day
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/apr/21/britain-set-for-first-coal-free-day-since-the-industrial-revolution

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[DanG 1]

I think the Red Team/Blue Team approach would be great. But I fear it would turn into a circus show when:

A) Scientists on both team were selected by the House Committee on Science and Technology.
B) The Red Team was permitted to use any source (or no attributed source) of data, including hack websites like the ones often quoted here.
C) The proceedings were kept secret, with the public disclosure being produced by the aforementioned House Committee.

- Dan G

[Phil1111 1,149]

ryoder

British power generation achieves first ever coal-free day
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/apr/21/britain-set-for-first-coal-free-day-since-the-industrial-revolution

“The direction of travel is that both in the UK and globally we are already moving towards a low carbon economy. It is a clear message to any new government that they should prioritise making the UK a world leader in clean, green, technology.”

Gareth Redmond-King, head of climate and energy at WWF, called the first coal-free working day “a significant milestone in our march towards the green economic revolution”.

“Getting rid of coal from our energy mix is exciting and hugely important."

Above from story. Don't tell trump and his supporters this. Coal is all part of making America GREAT again. One black lung case at a time.

[brenthutch 444]

Good luck with your green 20 cent per kwh vs our dirty 12 cent per kwh. Congratulations on saving the planet.

[Phil1111 1,149]

brenthutch

Good luck with your green 20 cent per kwh vs our dirty 12 cent per kwh. Congratulations on saving the planet.

Two Ohio coal plants to close

An electric utility company is closing two coal-fired power plants by next year, citing economic conditions.

Dayton Power & Light, a subsidiary of utility giant AES Corp., announced on Monday the closure of the J.M. Stuart and Killen generating stations, following a monthslong review of the plants.

They are the latest in a string of hundreds of coal-fired power plants announcing closure in recent years.

“Along with our co-owners of the plants, we have completed a thorough review of our options and it has become clear that, without significant changes in market conditions, the plants will not be economically viable beyond mid-2018,” Dayton Power said in a statement about the plants that sit along the Ohio River in the southern part of the state.
http://thehill.com/policy/energy-environment/324857-two-ohio-coal-plants-to-close

From 2010 through 2015, the most recent data available, total greenhouse gas emissions from coal-fired plants in Pennsylvania fell by almost one-quarter. ..

One of Pennsylvania’s biggest coal-fired plants - Homer City - filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy this year so it could reorganize. It has 250 employees. ..

Stephanie Walton, a spokeswoman for FirstEnergy, which once had four coal-fired plants in Pennsylvania, said the company is down to one: Bruce Mansfield in Shippingport in the far western part of the state. But even that could be in jeopardy.

Walton said that FirstEnergy is evaluating all its plants over the next 18 months.

“That could mean deactivating, or retiring plants,” Walton said of the evaluation, which she noted is the result of “challenges with the competitive market.”

Bruce Mansfield uses seven millions tons of coal a year and employs 350 people.

Walton said current economic conditions have nothing to do with Obama’s regulations, although she noted that his administration’s rules have hurt the industry in the past.
http://www.philly.com/philly/health/Trump-environmental-rollback-likely-too-late-for-not-Pennsylvania-coal-plants.html

Carnegie Mellon assistant professor of economics and public policy Edson Severnini says those closures may have caused reduced birth weight in children in the area at the time, due to pollution exposure from the increased reliance on coal-burning power plants
https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/04/low-birth-weights-found-in-areas-where-coal-replaced-nuclear-power-in-the-80s/

Environmental officials said for years that a coal-fired power plant on the Delaware River in Pennsylvania harmed New Jersey residents by spewing air pollution across state lines.

Now it appears they have proof.

A study published this week by a team of scientists shows New Jersey mothers living as far as 20 to 30 miles downwind from the Portland Generating Station had a greater chance of having babies with low birth weight.
http://www.dailyrecord.com/story/news/local/2017/04/04/report-coal-power-plant-pennsylvania-caused-low-birth-weights-nj/100032920/

[billvon 2,991]

>Good luck with your green 20 cent per kwh vs our dirty 12 cent per kwh.
>Congratulations on saving the planet.

I pay about $60 a year for power. How about you?

[brenthutch 444]

billvon

>Good luck with your green 20 cent per kwh vs our dirty 12 cent per kwh.
>Congratulations on saving the planet.

I pay about $60 a year for power. How about you?

Good for you Bill, but I was referring to national averages.

[yoink 321]

brenthutch

***>Good luck with your green 20 cent per kwh vs our dirty 12 cent per kwh.
>Congratulations on saving the planet.

I pay about $60 a year for power. How about you?

Good for you Bill, but I was referring to national averages.

Give green energy the 350 years of use that coal has had and I suspect they'll find ways to reduce the cost to the user - Just as coal did.

Not convinced?

http://gpih.ucdavis.edu/files/Clark_Jacks.pdf
Coal in the 1700's priced at 32s per tonne.

I didn't find an exact converter, but let's make it more generous for your argument - let's do the computation from 100 years later, after it gets into widespread use - 1830.

http://www.concertina.com/calculator/
32s in 1830 is about $1,245 dollars in today's money. That was the equivalent price per tonne for coal.

Today's price per tonne? About $36, taken as an average...
https://www.quandl.com/collections/markets/coal



The cost of some sort of green energy will go down as it's adopted over time. Just as coal did.

[billvon 2,991]

>Good for you Bill, but I was referring to national averages.

Ah. If you want a larger perspective, then:
==========================================
World Energy Hits a Turning Point: Solar That's Cheaper Than Wind

Emerging markets are leapfrogging the developed world thanks to cheap panels.
by Tom Randall
December 14, 2016, 10:00 PM PST
Bloomberg

A transformation is happening in global energy markets that’s worth noting as 2016 comes to an end: Solar power, for the first time, is becoming the cheapest form of new electricity.

This has happened in isolated projects in the past: an especially competitive auction in the Middle East, for example, resulting in record-cheap solar costs. But now unsubsidized solar is beginning to outcompete coal and natural gas on a larger scale, and notably, new solar projects in emerging markets are costing less to build than wind projects, according to fresh data from Bloomberg New Energy Finance.

. . .

The world recently passed a turning point and is adding more capacity for clean energy each year than for coal and natural gas combined. Peak fossil-fuel use for electricity may be reached within the next decade.

Half the Price of Coal

This year has seen a remarkable run for solar power. Auctions, where private companies compete for massive contracts to provide electricity, established record after record for cheap solar power. It started with a contract in January to produce electricity for $64 per megawatt-hour in India; then a deal in August pegging $29.10 per megawatt hour in Chile. That’s record-cheap electricity—roughly half the price of competing coal power.
====================

[brenthutch 444]

Amen brother! If solar can stand on its own, without training wheels I am all for it. The more economic the better.