UK Parliament Attacks (22 March 2017)

[mik 2]

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but on a scale of 1 to 10 for european islamic terror attacks I'd rate it a solid 2, maybe scraping a 3.

Well.. .that might be your opinion. I am not so sure. An attack within sight of "Big Ben" is likely to be strategically important in the context of potential impact on tourism revenues, which ought to be of significance to both terrorists and the affected country. Citizens of France, Romania, Australia, South Korea, Germany, Poland, Ireland, China, Italy and Greece were affected. Having lived in a number of cities subject to multiple terrorist attacks (London - the so-called freedom fighters of the IRA, Moscow - the Black Widows and the bombings of the metros and the airport, Nairobi - the Westgate Mall) I feel that they are generally pretty safe in the aftermath of a terrorist incident. Not everyone feels the same way.

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I'm NOT totally useless... I can be used as a bad example

[AlanS 1]

jakee

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The true tragedy of the current American isolationism is that this incident was only shown as an inset video with barely a label and no sound,

And in the meantime 30 civilians died in an airstrike against a school in Raqqa and 130 civilians died in an airstrike in Mosul but sure, the level of concern for 5 white people in London is the real global tragedy here.

Jake,

Regarding the civilian deaths in Mosul. I've heard that it was an airstrike against roof-top snipers and the building collapsed on civilian being held in the lower floors. The speculation is that ISIS rigged with explosives and baited ISOF into calling an airstrike against it. When they did, they detonated the explosives to collapse the building and then attempted to create a media event for it, hoping that the bad publicity would make the airstrikes stop or less effective.

Regardless, I hope you understand the difference between terrorist trying to kill civilians and our military which is trying hard to not.

[jakee 1,489]

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Regardless, I hope you understand the difference between terrorist trying to kill civilians and our military which is trying hard to not.

Does that have any impact on the relative importance of the two events as 'stuff worth caring about'?

Believe it or not, that wasn't a 'Blame the US' post. I didn't even mention the US military, let alone speculate on how culpable they may have been.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[sonnyblu 0]

wmw999

I'm all for deporting illegal (or legal) immigrants who offend.

Back in my 20s, I partied pretty hard with some Mexicans in California. Not sure if they were legal or not - never asked, didn't care. We had a good time - certainly broke some laws. Not sure if I'd be OK with sending them back, especially after meeting their families and understanding their circumstances.

If you're an illegal, then it's a crap shoot.

If you're a legal resident, then I think you should be afforded more leniency. But if you do something that could cost you your job, then maybe you should be sent back to think things over.

If you're an immigrant citizen, then you are a citizen. no deportation for even the worst of crimes.

But I've been thinking lately - and I know that's never a good thing. But if we capture illegals that are rapists and murders, why should we send them back just to rape and murder more - or afford them them opportunity to even come back?

I'd have no problem dropping a dime or two sending them to Guantanamo or wherever the fuck.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

Be a lot easier if you just put them in camps. Wouldn't even have to build a wall.

[sonnyblu 0]

SkyDekker

Be a lot easier if you just put them in camps. Wouldn't even have to build a wall.

Building a wall seems like bad business. Just take over Mexico and clean it up. There's a lot of prime real estate down there for Trump resorts and plenty of cheap house keeping. Incentive based compensation for manufacturing jobs would explode!

#TheRealNewMexico

[Lawndarter 3]

Iago

The jihadists are using the refugee crisis to infiltrate the west.

Interesting observation, given that not a single such attach has involved refugees. They're targeting second generation people and converts to radicalize. People that grew up in places like Molenbeek, who were born in Europe but aren't integrated into European society and feel like they never will be, not least because they're treated like outsiders and hear plenty of hate hurled at them because of their religion. Those are the people the messaging targets, and the strategy works. Find people who are isolated and feel like their lot isn't going to improve, sell them something else. Hell, white supremacists and all manner of other extremists use the same technique.

[sonnyblu 0]

Lawndarter

not a single such attach has involved refugees.

Ya, because the system is working at least here in the U.S. There have been plenty of thwarted attacks, like the one in 2011 when Iraqi operatives infiltrated the U.S, causing Obama to suspend the Iraqi refugee program.

Lawndarter

They're targeting second generation people and converts to radicalize. People that grew up in places like Molenbeek, who were born in Europe but aren't integrated into European society and feel like they never will be, not least because they're treated like outsiders and hear plenty of hate hurled at them because of their religion. Those are the people the messaging targets, and the strategy works. Find people who are isolated and feel like their lot isn't going to improve, sell them something else. Hell, white supremacists and all manner of other extremists use the same technique.

But that doesn't excuse their behavior, there are plenty of lost souls out there that don't resort to violence.

The next time christian nutters blows up an abortion clinic, I bet you won't be in here talking about how we should've been nicer to them rather then calling them a bunch of delusional misogynists.

[billvon 2,991]

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I bet you won't be in here talking about how we should've been nicer to them rather then calling them a bunch of delusional misogynists.

We should show basic respect to everyone - Muslims AND right wingers. The ones who blow things up (of either variety) are delusional criminals.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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Ya, because the system is working at least here in the U.S. There have been plenty of thwarted attacks, like the one in 2011 when Iraqi operatives infiltrated the U.S, causing Obama to suspend the Iraqi refugee program.

Your President is claiming it isn't working at all and "extreme vetting" is required.

[Lawndarter 3]

sonnyblu

Ya, because the system is working at least here in the U.S. There have been plenty of thwarted attacks, like the one in 2011 when Iraqi operatives infiltrated the U.S, causing Obama to suspend the Iraqi refugee program.

I wasn't referring to the USA, the same applies for Europe. As for what you referred to, hat single incident (the Bowling Green Massacre) was the only such plot ever even detected.

sonnyblu

But that doesn't excuse their behavior, there are plenty of lost souls out there that don't resort to violence.

Sorry, but could you point out where I excused anyone's behaviour? I'll save you the trouble, that didn't happen.

sonnyblu

The next time christian nutters blows up an abortion clinic, I bet you won't be in here talking about how we should've been nicer to them rather then calling them a bunch of delusional misogynists.

They are delusional misogynists, just like radicalized idiots are trash, but again, the average person doesn't generally become so radical in their beliefs that they'll resort to violence. That takes a lot of careful nurturing in most cases, and you need someone with the vulnerability and level of frustration that they can be exploited to do so. SO far, evidentially, it's not been refugees presenting those traits.

And at the end of the day, "being nice to them" actually tends to be important. People with good positive social interactions, who have a positive outlook for their future, who are part of a community tend to be much more difficult (though not impossible) to radicalize. Why do you think hostage negotiators try to show empathy during negotiations?

In most cases of terror attacks, you can trace the attackers' past back to a lot of common themes - domestic violence, poverty, substance abuse, etc. And hey, when you've got governments and politicians blaming the core of a lot of peoples' identity for all the ills of the world, it's not hard to predict what can happen.

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

Lawndarter

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Ya, because the system is working at least here in the U.S. There have been plenty of thwarted attacks, like the one in 2011 when Iraqi operatives infiltrated the U.S, causing Obama to suspend the Iraqi refugee program.

I wasn't referring to the USA, the same applies for Europe. As for what you referred to, hat single incident (the Bowling Green Massacre) was the only such plot ever even detected.




There was no "plot" attached to the "Bowling Green Massacre". The two Iraqis who were deported were not suspected of any terrorist activities in the US. They were trying to send money and weapons to Al Queda in Iraq.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/02/03/politics/bowling-green-not-massacre-terrorists-trnd/

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[Lawndarter 3]

wolfriverjoe

******

Ya, because the system is working at least here in the U.S. There have been plenty of thwarted attacks, like the one in 2011 when Iraqi operatives infiltrated the U.S, causing Obama to suspend the Iraqi refugee program.

I wasn't referring to the USA, the same applies for Europe. As for what you referred to, hat single incident (the Bowling Green Massacre) was the only such plot ever even detected.




There was no "plot" attached to the "Bowling Green Massacre". The two Iraqis who were deported were not suspected of any terrorist activities in the US. They were trying to send money and weapons to Al Queda in Iraq.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/02/03/politics/bowling-green-not-massacre-terrorists-trnd/

Indeed you're right. Having survived the Bowling Green Massacre I sometimes forget that it didn't actually happen, and the nature of the incident that required revision of Iraqi refugee processing. If I remember correctly, though, there was no month that Iraqi refugees weren't admitted to the US.

[ryoder 1,590]

Lawndarter

Indeed you're right. Having survived the Bowling Green Massacre I sometimes forget that it didn't actually happen, and the nature of the incident that required revision of Iraqi refugee processing. If I remember correctly, though, there was no month that Iraqi refugees weren't admitted to the US.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[sonnyblu 0]

Lawndarter

As for what you referred to, hat single incident (the Bowling Green Massacre) was the only such plot ever even detected.

Honestly, I didn't know what you were talking about when you said "the bowling Green Massacre." I was just referring to an article I read a few years back from 2013:
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/al-qaeda-kentucky-us-dozens-terrorists-country-refugees/story?id=20931131

And just FYI, here's a list of 60 thwarted attacks. Some of the terrorists were natural born citizens, some were naturalized citizens, some were legal permanent residents, some were refugees. I didn't take the time to figure out specifically how or why these people came here, nor when they were radicalized.


http://www.heritage.org/terrorism/report/60-terrorist-plots-911-continued-lessons-domestic-counterterrorism

[sonnyblu 0]

wolfriverjoe

The two Iraqis who were deported were not suspected of any terrorist activities in the US. They were trying to send money and weapons to Al Queda in Iraq.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/02/03/politics/bowling-green-not-massacre-terrorists-trnd/

I didn't read anything about them being deported. One received 40 years, the other got a life sentence.

At their sentencing, prosecutors brought attention to FBI surveillance tapes that caught the guys discussing plans to bomb/assassinate an army captain and attack other U.S targets.

If you're interested, here's the full story. Something you won't get from CNN.

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/al-qaeda-kentucky-us-dozens-terrorists-country-refugees/story?id=20931131

[mistercwood 287]

sonnyblu

And just FYI, here's a list of 60 thwarted attacks. Some of the terrorists were natural born citizens, some were naturalized citizens, some were legal permanent residents, some were refugees. I didn't take the time to figure out specifically how or why these people came here, nor when they were radicalized.


http://www.heritage.org/terrorism/report/60-terrorist-plots-911-continued-lessons-domestic-counterterrorism

Despite the source, I went back and read through the bulk of that. There is only one mention of a refugee in the entire list, and the connection was tenuous at best - he was brought as a witness to a meeting that another guy had arranged, with what turned out to be the FBI running a sting.

Yet another example of "they're using the refugees as cover to infiltrate" being completely unsupported by the facts.

You are playing chicken with a planet - you can't dodge and planets don't blink. Act accordingly.

[Lawndarter 3]

mistercwood

Despite the source, I went back and read through the bulk of that. There is only one mention of a refugee in the entire list, and the connection was tenuous at best - he was brought as a witness to a meeting that another guy had arranged, with what turned out to be the FBI running a sting.

Yet another example of "they're using the refugees as cover to infiltrate" being completely unsupported by the facts.

I don't know if anyone's done any research to support this, but it seems like "the right" tends to far more often trot out links and citations that either don't support their point, or even more amusingly when it happens actually directly contradict them.

The point remains: the allegation that refugees are a security threat due to "infiltration" by radicals remains completely without merit, and doesn't even really hold up to a bit of critical thinking.

[sonnyblu 0]

mistercwood

Yet another example of "they're using the refugees as cover to infiltrate" being completely unsupported by the facts.

I already made it clear that I believe the system is working. Iraqi operatives did in fact use the refugee program to infiltrate the US. These were known operatives with identifiable information already in our system, yet they made their way in anyhow. I agree with the Obama Admin that it was a serious flaw and needed to be addressed.

The system is now better because of it.

The link I posted further demonstrates how the system is working, but also shows how radicals might want to take advantage of various immigration programs to gain access to US soil.

Now's not the time to become complacent, nor overreact.

[sonnyblu 0]

Before this thread dies, I just wanted to say one last thing.

Initially I agreed with your sentiments. I just didn't think it was as black and white as you made it to be.

When you mentioned that the west just doesn't care about the rest of the world, I thought briefly about the 2004 tsunami. There was a hell of a lot of interest in that. But I left it out because it would've been such a terrible example on so many levels.

Anyway, the movie "Impossible" was on today. I only watched about 30 minutes of it. I immediately thought about this thread. Here is an instance where about 250,000 lost their lives, most of which were brown people, both socially and economically disconnected from us, yet the big hit movie is about a white family dodging the wake of fate . . .

Just saying.

Like I said, I share your sentiments, but I think you sorely misunderstand how the business/politics of news actually works.

Edit:
Actually, I don't think you really misunderstand. I just think you're trolli, err, pretending. . .

[jakee 1,489]

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Like I said, I share your sentiments, but I think you sorely misunderstand how the business/politics of news actually works.

While the news is sometimes a driver of opinion it also reacts to what people care about. So they won't spend lots of time reporting situations they know people won't give a shit about. Goes back to my original post.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?