Renewable energy is working

[billvon 3,006]

The right wing has been claiming that there's no way to make renewable energy work - you need "spinning reserves" you have to overbuild, you'll never reach even 50% in renewable electrical power.

With that in mind:
===========================
California breaks energy record with 80% of state's power generated using renewable methods

Rachael Revesz
The Independent

The Golden State has soaked up enough rays to generate 67.2 per cent of its energy from renewable sources last month, smashing previous records.

When combining California’s largest grid with hydropower facilities, renewable energy rose even further to 80.7 per cent of total energy generation on 13 May.

Thanks to ample sunshine, full water reservoirs and more solar facilities, the California Independent System Operator, the largest grid in the state, beat previous records.

California also set a new record on 16 May for wind power, producing 4,985 megawatts on one day.

"It's going to be a dynamic year for records," CISO spokesperson Steven Greenlee told SF Gate. "The solar records in particular are falling like dominoes."

. . .

Other states and cities are following the renewable energy trend.

Government buildings in Las Vegas are completely powered by renewable energy.

Chicago will power all buildings in the city with renewable energy by 2025.

Atlanta has pledged to be 100 per cent renewable energy by 2035, while the whole state of Massachusetts and Hawaii will follow by 2035 and 2045 respectively.
==============

[tonyhays 86]

Falling like dominoes is right. Wait til Tesla's roof tiles start becoming mainstream. Europe is starting to build it's own battery gigafactory as well.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-05-22/move-over-tesla-europe-s-building-its-own-battery-gigafactories

“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”

[billvon 3,006]

>Falling like dominoes is right. Wait til Tesla's roof tiles start becoming mainstream.

I don't think that's going to happen; they are far too expensive and hard to install. But regular solar installs are growing almost 2x every year, so that's not much of a big deal.

Storage will be the next big frontier. Here again Tesla is pushing the Powerwall but I think more progress will be made by companies like Sonnen.

[JerryBaumchen 1,372]

Hi Bill,

Quote

far too expensive and hard to install

Last week I talked with a Tesla rep about their solar roof tiles. I was concerned as to how they handled roof vent pipes and walking on the solar tiles; as in needing to go up onto the roof for whatever.

He said that these are problems that they have to overcome.

Rome was not built in a day.

Jerry Baumchen

[airdvr 210]

California electricity rates to undergo biggest change in 15 years
from 2015

Quote

Rates will be based on two tiers of electricity usage, instead of the current four.

Many households with above-average electricity use will save money, while the most energy-efficient households will pay more.

The biggest residential users will face a “super-user surcharge” designed to prompt conservation.

Starting in 2019, most residential customers will pay different prices for electricity at different times of day.

Just what you needed there in CA...higher rates.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[billvon 3,006]

>Just what you needed there in CA...higher rates.

I pay about $5-$20 a month for power. How about you?

[airdvr 210]

billvon

>Just what you needed there in CA...higher rates.

I pay about $5-$20 a month for power. How about you?

Bill, everyone here knows you've got some setup that takes you off the grid. Know that you are the minority...big time.

Gas is $2 / gal in Ohio. What do non-Tesla drivers pay in CA?

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[billvon 3,006]

>Bill, everyone here knows you've got some setup that takes you off the grid.
>Know that you are the minority...big time.

Yep. About 6% of all separate homes in California have solar, and that number is growing fast. It's been roughly doubling every year - which is part of the reason that such a large percentage of our electrical power comes from renewables now.

>Gas is $2 / gal in Ohio. What do non-Tesla drivers pay in CA?

About $2.60.

[yoink 321]

I looked into Solar last year for my house in San Diego. It was going to cost about $15k after rebates for an install that we would own - so no lease payments, no liens on the house etc.

The ROI on that was about 12 years based on our electricity usage. It makes more sense to me to invest that money in the market as my return over that time should be larger. Quite significantly.

[DJL 235]

yoink

I looked into Solar last year for my house in San Diego. It was going to cost about $15k after rebates for an install that we would own - so no lease payments, no liens on the house etc.

The ROI on that was about 12 years based on our electricity usage. It makes more sense to me to invest that money in the market as my return over that time should be larger. Quite significantly.

My most accurate source (Genius as Fuck brother-in-law who's job is telling companies like Ford, Honeywell and their Chinese suppliers how to more efficiently run their business.) has said the same. It's basically a thing you do because you like it, you'll get the same payback on a typical stock investment.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[DanG 1]

Do those valuations take into account the increase in your home's value? Obviously you're not going to recoup the whole cost of the panels and install if you sell the house, but you'll surely recoup some of it.

- Dan G

[DJL 235]

DanG

Do those valuations take into account the increase in your home's value? Obviously you're not going to recoup the whole cost of the panels and install if you sell the house, but you'll surely recoup some of it.

No idea. Just talking out of my ass it could be seen as a personal choice rather than something that ads value to the house. A quick google search shows that it's becoming more of an added value option but I'm sure that depends on the age.

According to a website that promotes solar installation (http://costofsolar.com/:
"In a state like California, for example, a small 3.1-kilowatt (kW) system can add an average of $18,324 to the value of a medium-sized home. The property value advantages of solar energy only increase as you scale up. Installing 5kW of solar panels adds an average of $29,555 to the retail value of a medium-sized home."

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[yoink 321]

DanG

Do those valuations take into account the increase in your home's value? Obviously you're not going to recoup the whole cost of the panels and install if you sell the house, but you'll surely recoup some of it.

We looked at it. I asked a few real estate agents in my area about the likely increase in value and the responses varied from $5k to $20k. I guessed at a likely break-even when I was thinking about it.

So yeah, after the 12 years there would be an increase in value to the home, but not a hugely significant one compared the the increase simply by the market value increasing by itself.
I think it's also likely that by that time there will be cheaper and better systems that we would be able to install if that was a big added value for the buyer and would realize a larger ROI on the house sale.

It's also a significant chunk of money to outlay. $15k gone in a single shot is a big dent to the bank balance compared to ongoing yearly electricity costs of about $1200...

This is all about purchasing a system outright. We specifically didn't want a leased system which would change the financials drastically. I suspect that's the way to go for most people, to be honest.

[TriGirl 319]

yoink

It's also a significant chunk of money to outlay. $15k gone in a single shot is a big dent to the bank balance compared to ongoing yearly electricity costs of about $1200...

That's presuming the current source of electricity remains the same over the same time frame, though. That is still an unknown.

And, of course, the investment is also an investment in the industry. I agree that each homeowner should look at their own financial situation to determine when to convert (e.g., costs of installation and purchase will likely go down as the technology continues to develop), but I also like showing support to industry with my dollars when I can.

Now, if I could just get a solar power system on my house that works only to the plug charging an electric car, or only on the A/C unit (which draws the most power when the sun is out anyway), then that would be a really nice compromise to take the edge off the power requirements of my home in Florida.

See the upside, and always wear your parachute! -- Christopher Titus

Shut Up & Jump!

[billvon 3,006]

Quote

Now, if I could just get a solar power system on my house that works only to the plug charging an electric car, or only on the A/C unit (which draws the most power when the sun is out anyway), then that would be a really nice compromise to take the edge off the power requirements of my home in Florida.

Problem there is then you get no benefit from the system when the car is not plugged in or the A/C is not running - so payback times get much longer. The nice part about a grid tied system is that you can do what you describe - i.e. if you have a 4kW solar system and a 3.3kW EV charger, basically all the power you generate goes to the car. But when you're not plugged in, you are "banking" that power for later charging. It's also good for the grid - if you generate during the day and charge at night, you are putting power back when the grid needs it and taking it out when it is running an excess.

[billvon 3,006]

from the Independent comes news that solar is now so cheap that developing countries can't afford coal any more:
============================
India cancels plans for huge coal power stations as solar energy prices hit record low

'India’s solar tariffs have literally been free falling in recent months'

Ian Johnston

India has cancelled plans to build nearly 14 gigawatts of coal-fired power stations – about the same as the total amount in the UK – with the price for solar electricity “free falling” to levels once considered impossible.

Analyst Tim Buckley said the shift away from the dirtiest fossil fuel and towards solar in India would have “profound” implications on global energy markets.

According to his article on the Institute for Energy Economics and Financial Analysis’s website, 13.7GW of planned coal power projects have been cancelled so far this month – in a stark indication of the pace of change.

In January last year, Finnish company Fortum agreed to generate electricity in Rajasthan with a record low tariff, or guaranteed price, of 4.34 rupees per kilowatt-hour (about 5p).

Mr Buckley, director of energy finance studies at the IEEFA, said that at the time analysts said this price was so low would never be repeated.

But, 16 months later, an auction for a 500-megawatt solar facility resulted in a tariff of just 2.44 rupees – compared to the wholesale price charged by a major coal-power utility of 3.2 rupees (about 31 per cent higher).

“For the first time solar is cheaper than coal in India and the implications this has for transforming global energy markets is profound,” Mr Buckley said.

“Measures taken by the Indian Government to improve energy efficiency coupled with ambitious renewable energy targets and the plummeting cost of solar has had an impact on existing as well as proposed coal fired power plants, rendering an increasing number as financially unviable.
===============================

[yoink 321]

TriGirl

That's presuming the current source of electricity remains the same over the same time frame, though. That is still an unknown.

Actually the quotes we got factored in increases in energy costs over the years (because it makes their proposals look better), so I used the same figures for my calculations.
Current energy cost is about $80 - $100 per month. In 12 years I had it as high as $150, hence the $1200 yearly average.

I like the idea of solar and want to support renewable energy. It just doesn't make financial sense to own a system on a residential place in California unless you have really high electricity bills for some reason. I couldn't make the maths work no matter how hard I tried.

Commercially or Nationally I think is another thing altogether.

[TriGirl 319]

billvon

Quote

Now, if I could just get a solar power system on my house that works only to the plug charging an electric car, or only on the A/C unit (which draws the most power when the sun is out anyway), then that would be a really nice compromise to take the edge off the power requirements of my home in Florida.

Problem there is then you get no benefit from the system when the car is not plugged in or the A/C is not running - so payback times get much longer.

Except that in Florida, the A/C is almost always running! Whether it's the full compressor, just the fan, or dehumidifier, some part of it is always turning.

Quote

The nice part about a grid tied system is that you can do what you describe - i.e. if you have a 4kW solar system and a 3.3kW EV charger, basically all the power you generate goes to the car. But when you're not plugged in, you are "banking" that power for later charging. It's also good for the grid - if you generate during the day and charge at night, you are putting power back when the grid needs it and taking it out when it is running an excess.

Agreed, save two issues:
1 -- Florida does not have this (at least, not last time I checked. Would be pleased to hear if that has changed), and
2 -- As I understand it, Germany is having a big problem with this. Just about everyone puts into the common grid all day, but then everyone needs to pull energy at night. The daytime input is more than they need, so they don't keep the generators running (or can't keep them running at a certain level). When there are storms, or not enough daylight, or at night (esp consider winter), they have to kick up the generation of power, which costs more to kick up than to keep within an average margin*

*[disclaimer: layman's basic explanation -- I'm sure I don't have the specifics just right. Also perfectly willing to change my opinion if someone with more expertise chimes in.]

ETA -- really looking forward to the day we figure out how to store large amounts of the electricity generated by renewable energy like solar and wind.

See the upside, and always wear your parachute! -- Christopher Titus

Shut Up & Jump!

[billvon 3,006]

>1 -- Florida does not have this (at least, not last time I checked. Would be pleased
>to hear if that has changed)

Not sure which utility you are with but this is from FPL:
==========================================
Net metering allows FPL customers who connect approved, renewable generation systems, such as solar panels, to the electric grid to buy and sell electricity to FPL.

When you generate electricity from your solar array for your home or business, it reduces the amount of energy you purchase from FPL. It also lowers your monthly energy bills. If your system produces more energy than you need, the excess power flows back to FPL’s grid. That amount of energy is deducted from your monthly bill or credited toward a future bill in the same calendar year. If any energy credits remain at the end of the year, FPL buys the energy at an approved rate.

To be eligible, complete the application process for your Interconnection Tier listed below and FPL will replace your current electric meter with an appropriate meter to correctly measure excess power supplied to the grid. This is needed to calculate the net impact on your bill.

Tier 1 and 2 net metering applications are now completed online.
==============================================

>2 -- As I understand it, Germany is having a big problem with this.

They are one of the most aggressive in terms of adding renewable energy to the grid - and that sometimes causes them problems dealing with unreliable power sources. However, it is worth noting that since 2006 the grid in Germany has become more reliable, not less reliable.

Average outage duration 2006: 21:30
Average outage duration 2015: 12:42

Percentage of companies in 2012 who said they had been impacted by power loss: 9%
In 2016: 8%

Percentage of companies in 2012 who said they had noticed short (<3 min) power losses: 17%
In 2016: 15%

https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/germanys-electricity-grid-stable-amid-energy-transition

Closer to home, Hawaii (expensive power, lots of sun) has been having problems because during the day they are generating more power than the grid can handle. Large substations cannot currently handle power flowing backwards into other subgrids. They are working to fix this problem.

In the meantime they are not allowing new conventional grid tie installations on some subgrids. They are, however, allowing net-zero installations - installations where the solar you have will cover your loads, but not feed back to the grid.

[billvon 3,006]

So India is going solar because it's cheaper. What is the US doing? From Utility Dive:

=================
Ohio lawmakers mull perpetual subsidy for OVEC coal plants

Robert Walton

May 24, 2017
Dive Brief:

A bill introduced in the Ohio House would provide perpetual subsidies for two coal plants run by Ohio Valley Electric Corp. (OVEC), which is owned by a group of utilities from across the state, the Columbus Dispatch reports.

. . .

Dive Insight:

AEP customers are already paying about $2 per month to support the OVEC plants, according to the Columbus Dispatch. While other subsidy proposals in Ohio have proven contentious, Ohio Valley Electric's atypical beginnings may make it easier to find common ground.

Rep. Rick Carfagna (R), a co-sponsor of the legislation, told the Dispatch OVEC is "for lack of a better term, an anomaly."

The plants were built in the 1950s to supply energy to a now-defunct uranium enrichment site. But the two coal facilities remain in operation, owned by AEP and other investor-owned utilities like FirstEnergy, Duke Energy and Dayton Power and Light. Combined, they provide almost 2,400 MW of power.

The proposed legislation would ensure utility owners of the plants they receive income even when energy prices fall below levels necessary to recoup operating costs.
=================

[airdvr 210]

That's great for HI, CA, AZ, and FL and all of the other places with abundant sunshine. On average here in the rust belt we see 166 days of sunshine. That means 199 days of needing something else.

Yes, yes...I know research is being done to the storage devices. And I'm sure when the problem is solved the states holding the power will let us poor bastards have it at a discount.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[DJL 235]

airdvr

That's great for HI, CA, AZ, and FL and all of the other places with abundant sunshine. On average here in the rust belt we see 166 days of sunshine. That means 199 days of needing something else.

Yes, yes...I know research is being done to the storage devices. And I'm sure when the problem is solved the states holding the power will let us poor bastards have it at a discount.

Countries with most solar use:

China: 78,100 MW (25.8%)
Japan: 42,800 MW (14.1%)
Germany: 41,200 MW (13.6%)
United States: 40,300 MW (13.3%)
Italy: 19,300 MW (6.4%)
United Kingdom: 11,600 MW (3.8%)
India: 9,000 MW (3.0%)
France: 7,100 MW (2.3%)

I'm not sure what your weather data is based upon but if your concern is latitude or weather then compare it to these countries that use quite a bit of solar.

The 45th Parrallel runs through Lake Michigan and the South of France and if there's one thing the UK is famous for it's shit weather.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[airdvr 210]

DJL

***That's great for HI, CA, AZ, and FL and all of the other places with abundant sunshine. On average here in the rust belt we see 166 days of sunshine. That means 199 days of needing something else.

Yes, yes...I know research is being done to the storage devices. And I'm sure when the problem is solved the states holding the power will let us poor bastards have it at a discount.

Countries with most solar use:

China: 78,100 MW (25.8%)
Japan: 42,800 MW (14.1%)
Germany: 41,200 MW (13.6%)
United States: 40,300 MW (13.3%)
Italy: 19,300 MW (6.4%)
United Kingdom: 11,600 MW (3.8%)
India: 9,000 MW (3.0%)
France: 7,100 MW (2.3%)

I'm not sure what your weather data is based upon but if your concern is latitude or weather then compare it to these countries that use quite a bit of solar.

The 45th Parrallel runs through Lake Michigan and the South of France and if there's one thing the UK is famous for it's shit weather.

https://www.digitaltrends.com/cool-tech/china-solar-energy/

Quote

As it stands, solar energy represents only one percent of the country’s energy output. But this may soon change as China devotes more and more of its attention towards clean energy. The NEA says that China will seek to add more than 110 gigawatts within the next three years, which could help the nation up the proportion of its renewable energy use to 20 percent by 2030. Today, it stands at 11 percent.

Where did you get the 25% number?

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[headoverheels 333]

airdvr

Where did you get the 25% number?

Those percentages are the country's share of total PV solar in the world, not the percentage of total power generated by solar.

Last year, China installed 45% of the solar installed in the world.

[billvon 3,006]

>That's great for HI, CA, AZ, and FL and all of the other places with abundant sunshine.

And NY, and MA, and NJ, and NC. (All in the top 10 states for solar generation.)