baskets of deplorables

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

Interesting. Some people were wondering why the FBI used so many agents to arrest Stone.
They were outraged that they used more FBI guys than the military used to take down Bin Laden. 

I thought it was just SOP.

Turns out that Stone has posted videos that may well have made the FBI a 'bit uncomfortable'.

 

https://www.miaminewtimes.com/news/roger-stone-threatened-political-violence-and-civil-war-prior-to-instagram-aimed-at-judge-amy-berman-jackson-11093425

Turns out that the threat against the judge was fairly tame, compared to some of his stuff.

[kallend 2,027]

How many criminals does 45 have to associate with before even his supporters realize that he is more like a mob boss than a statesman?

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

1 hour ago, kallend said:

How many criminals does 45 have to associate with before even his supporters realize that he is more like a mob boss than a statesman?

They

 

Don't 

 

Care

 

He's not black & he's not a woman.

He's trying to shut down Planned Parenthood & he's letting them keep their guns, no matter how many shootings there are.

That's all they care about.

[Phil1111 1,149]

1 hour ago, kallend said:

How many criminals does 45 have to associate with before even his supporters realize that he is more like a mob boss than a statesman?

They never will. I used to think that but a new paradigm has come about and its called evangelical christianity. They call themselves christians but they're no more christian than Al-Baghdadi is a Muslim.

For all of them its about a political ideology that overrides the law and any commandments of christ. Superceeds any of the five pillars of Islam. Its us v. them.

" He has defended the legalization of capital punishment, and argued that the “politics” of “human rights, and of the politically correct, give space to those who are against the law and on the side of criminals.” He has said he’d rather have “a dead son over a gay son” and that he would not rape a particular female deputy in congress because “she wasn’t worthy of it.” ..., for actions that broke congressional decorum, like sending death threats to another member of Congress and saying the military regime that ruled ...for 30 years “should have killed more people.” He has shown no particular grasp of policy"

No, this isn't trump, its the president of Brazil. Another dictator elected by christian evangelicals.

The Rise of the Brazilian Evangelicals

Hitler in Brasilia: The U.S. Evangelicals and Nazi Political Theory Behind Brazil's President-in-waiting

" Mix up fascist geopolitics, Pat Robertson's LGBT hate, Bannon's nationalism and Putin's shills and you get Jair Bolsonaro, who's nostalgic for the U.S.-backed dictatorship that tortured and killed thousands of leftists - and he's about to come to power ...

We are the majority. We are the real Brazil. Together, we will build a new nation…These red [leftist] criminals will be banished from our homeland. Either they go overseas, or they go to jail. It will be a cleanup the likes of which has never been seen in Brazilian history. Jair Bolsonaro, 21 October 2018 

Unbelievable: A presidential candidate asks the people to conform to what he thinks or pay the price: Jail or exile. Reminiscent of other [past] times. Former Brazilian president Fernando Henrique Cardoso, 23 October 2018 ...

When another of Bolsonaro's  sons, Eduardo, tweeted out a photo of himself posing with the ubiquitous Steve Bannon this August, declaring that the two share the same "worldview," ...

Bolsonaro, who is Catholic but attends Baptist services, has made a populist effort to span denominations, and receives broad support from Brazil’s growing, urban evangelical movement, including boosters associated with the World Congress of Families. 

Bolsonaro was baptized in the Jordan River into the Assemblies of God, which has been pouring money into far-right politics in Brazil and around the world. The Assemblies of God are deep drivers of the U.S. Evangelical movement, including some of the most important partners of the World Congress of Families.

Bolsonaro’s richest Evangelical supporters, like the Assembly of God’s head and Pentecostal televangelist Silas Malafaia, have partnered up with WCF allies at the Pat Robertson-founded American Center for Law and Justice, and at the Brazilian Center for Law and Justice, which promotes – as does WCF - a transnational movement against LGBT rights."

[billvon 2,991]

2 hours ago, wolfriverjoe said:

They

 

Don't 

 

Care

That's what a lot of Trump opponents miss.  People can post all the evidence of corruption and crime they want; Trump supporters simply don't care.  All they care about is that "their side wins."

[wmw999 2,447]

3 hours ago, billvon said:

That's what a lot of Trump opponents miss.  People can post all the evidence of corruption and crime they want; Trump supporters simply don't care.  All they care about is that "their side wins."

I think for many it's even more like all they care about is that "the other side loses."

Wendy P.

[billvon 2,991]

6 minutes ago, wmw999 said:

I think for many it's even more like all they care about is that "the other side loses."

Yep.  One of the most revealing quotes I have heard over the past year was a quote from a Trump supporter whose job was at risk due to the shutdown.  "I voted for him, and he’s the one who’s doing this.  I thought he was going to do good things. He’s not hurting the people he needs to be hurting.”

To that Trump supporter (and to many others) success is hurting the _right_ people.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/07/us/florida-government-shutdown-marianna.html

[Phil1111 1,149]

10 hours ago, billvon said:

Yep.  One of the most revealing quotes I have heard over the past year was a quote from a Trump supporter whose job was at risk due to the shutdown.  "I voted for him, and he’s the one who’s doing this.  I thought he was going to do good things. He’s not hurting the people he needs to be hurting.”

To that Trump supporter (and to many others) success is hurting the _right_ people.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/07/us/florida-government-shutdown-marianna.html

For republicans this is OK: Amazon’s $0 corporate income tax bill last year, explained

This is not: The Trump administration, which already canceled a grant for a group that fights white supremacist terror, now appears unwilling to renew the anti-domestic terror program under which it was funded,

For republicans this is OK: Trump's EPA just handed these states a way to keep burning coal

This is not: Trump Administration Blocks Funding From Family Planning Centers With Abortion Services

[kallend 2,027]

According to the latest Gallup survey of health and well being, the deplorables are most unhappy/unhealthy:  Maybe they needed Obamacare the most.
 

TOP 5 UNHAPPIEST STATES:

50. West Virginia

49. Arkansas

48. Kentucky

47. Mississippi

46. Tennessee

 

https://news.gallup.com/poll/247034/hawaii-tops-wellbeing-record-7th-time.aspx

[ryoder 1,590]

32 minutes ago, kallend said:

According to the latest Gallup survey of health and well being, the deplorables are most unhappy/unhealthy:  Maybe they needed Obamacare the most.
 

TOP 5 UNHAPPIEST STATES:

50. West Virginia

49. Arkansas

48. Kentucky

47. Mississippi

46. Tennessee

 

https://news.gallup.com/poll/247034/hawaii-tops-wellbeing-record-7th-time.aspx

Would it shock you that Richard Spencer agrees?

 

[JerryBaumchen 1,363]

18 hours ago, kallend said:

TOP 5 UNHAPPIEST STATES:

50. West Virginia

49. Arkansas

48. Kentucky

47. Mississippi

46. Tennessee

Hi John,

Very interesting.  Their guy got elected; they should be over-joyed.

Hmmmmmmm????????????/

Now, what could have gone wrong?

Jerry Baumchen

[Coreece 190]

On 2/24/2019 at 3:33 PM, Phil1111 said:

On 2/24/2019 at 1:43 PM, kallend said:

How many criminals does 45 have to associate with before even his supporters realize that he is more like a mob boss than a statesman?

They never will. I used to think that but a new paradigm has come about and its called evangelical christianity.

Huh?  How is evangelical Christianity a new paradigm?

Evangelicals have pretty much been divided over social/political issues since before the civil war.

 

On 2/24/2019 at 3:33 PM, Phil1111 said:

They call themselves christians but they're no more christian than Al-Baghdadi is a Muslim.

For all of them its about a political ideology that overrides the law and any commandments of christ.

I would like to see how you came to the conclusion that all, or most, or even a slight majority of white evangelicals voted for Trump and fit that description.  You may be tempted to post links about how "80-ish% of evangelicals voted for Trump," but you'd need to look at that number a bit more critically.

A wise man in this forum recently said, "you need to think beyond the superficial ideals that mix with small bits of evidence that support your conclusions."

 

So in light of that,  let's break down the numbers to provide a bit more perspective.

-  On the low end, white evangelicals represent 17% of the population, so about 55,000,000 evangelicals.

-  There was a total of about 137,500,000 people that actually voted.

-  White evangelicals represented 20% of that electorate, so about 27,500,000 evangelicals.

-  Of that portion of the electorate, 77% voted for Trump, so about 21,175,000.

-  So given that, about 38% of all white evangelicals actually voted for Trump. 

 

Aside from the fact that these people tend to vote republican anyway, regardless of the candidate, you have to consider that a portion of this 38% voted for Trump for the same reasons that mainline protestants or conservative atheists did, not just because they embody a mindset of anti-christian anarchy, which is basically what you said.

To say that all, most, or even a slight majority of evangelicals are not christian, and that it's all about a political ideology that overrides the law and any commandments of Christ, is just wildly inaccurate and saturated with ill conceived bias.   But hey, at least it's not nearly as offensive as saying that most women are afraid of spiders!

 

[Phil1111 1,149]

10 minutes ago, Coreece said:

Huh?  How is evangelical Christianity a new paradigm?

Evangelicals have pretty much been divided over social/political issues since before the civil war.

-  Of that portion of the electorate, 77% voted for Trump, so about 21,175,000.

-  So given that, about 38% of all white evangelicals actually voted for Trump.

 

The two quotes from you that I have emboldened dispute your own point. I have provided many quotations about the movement of evangelicals in the US to become a political force. So I won't quote those same sources again. You make reference to evangelicals as a body since the civil war. Yet the movement to the right of this sect and its political activism. Has never been matched before in the US.

Here is an article on the subject from:"The Christian Century is a Christian magazine based in Chicago, Illinois. Considered the flagship magazine of US mainline Protestantism, the biweekly reports on religious news; comments on theological, moral, and cultural issues." from Wikipedia

American evangelicalism and the politics of whiteness

[Coreece 190]

13 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

33 minutes ago, Coreece said:

Huh?  How is evangelical Christianity a new paradigm?

Evangelicals have pretty much been divided over social/political issues since before the civil war.

-  Of that portion of the electorate, 77% voted for Trump, so about 21,175,000.

-  So given that, about 38% of all white evangelicals actually voted for Trump.

 

The two quotes from you that I have emboldened dispute your own point.

No they don't, you just didn't take my advice and look at those numbers critically.  Hell you ddn't even take your own advice to the spider guy in the "you are beautiful" thread.  What you're doing is really no different than what he did.  It's like looking at a study that says 90% of those that suffer from arachnophobia are women, and then translating that as "most women are afraid of spiders!"

 

21 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

Here is an article on the subject from

See, this is what you almost always do.  You just dismiss the data and refuse to address anything that I really said.  Then you just post a bunch of links in lieu of an honest and thoughtful reply using your own words.

I shouldn't have to click through a bunch of links to understand the substance of your position. 

So to recap:

You said that for all evangelical christians, it's about a political ideology that overrides the law and any commandments of christ and that they are not christians.

At least the spider guy backed down from his position once he was told he was wrong about women. I've actually demonstrated how you were wrong, and yet you still deliberately refuse to acknowledge it.

[billvon 2,991]

1 hour ago, Coreece said:

Huh?  How is evangelical Christianity a new paradigm?  Evangelicals have pretty much been divided over social/political issues since before the civil war.

 

Not very much division here when it comes to Trump support.  In every poll I've seen, white evangelicals are the only group with a solid majority supporting Trump.  From a PRRI poll: 

"Members of most major religious traditions have an unfavorable view of Trump. White evangelical Protestants are the only major religious group to view Trump favorably. More than seven in ten (72%) white evangelical Protestants have a favorable opinion of Trump; Trump’s favorability among white evangelical Protestants has remained relatively unchanged since he took office in 2017."

Religious News Service:

"At the beginning of December The Marist poll found 73 percent of white evangelicals approving of the job Trump was doing as president, compared to 17 percent who disapproved."

73 to 17 percent is not "pretty much divided."  I am sure individual white evangelicals have wide ranging opinions on things - but on Trump they are remarkably united.

Quote

To say that all, most, or even a slight majority of evangelicals are not christian, and that it's all about a political ideology that overrides the law and any commandments of Christ, is just wildly inaccurate and saturated with ill conceived bias.

It is fairly accurate to say that a majority of white evangelicals support a president who opposes the teachings of Jesus.  However, as others have noted, the teachings of Jesus aren't necessarily aligned with evangelical Christianity, nor is support for Trump equal to support for everything he does.  If you want a rationale for this level of support, consider this claim in an editorial from the Religious News Service:

"God uses imperfect messengers, evangelicals reasoned, and if King David — an adulterer who arranged to have his partner’s husband killed — could still accomplish great good, why not the 45th president?"

 

[Coreece 190]

16 hours ago, billvon said:

18 hours ago, Coreece said:

Huh?  How is evangelical Christianity a new paradigm?  Evangelicals have pretty much been divided over social/political issues since before the civil war.

 

 I am sure individual white evangelicals have wide ranging opinions on things

Tell that to Phil, he still thinks they are all lawless anti-christian posers.  It's inline with the same "us vs them" mentality that he speaks out against, which makes such narrow-minded comments all the more hypocritical.  But I know, why waste my time with such petty nonsense when we all know the real bigot is in the other thread bashing women for their fear of spiders. . .

 

16 hours ago, billvon said:

"At the beginning of December The Marist poll found 73 percent of white evangelicals approving of the job Trump was doing as president, compared to 17 percent who disapproved."

73 to 17 percent is not "pretty much divided."  

. . .on Trump they are remarkably united. 

That's most likely directly related to the fact that  "Republican candidates are more popular than the Democratic candidates among white evangelical Protestants (71% vs. 20%)"  And It's been that way for decades, well before Trump ever came along.

So how is that a "new paradigm," since that was the original question being asked?

 

17 hours ago, billvon said:

Quote

To say that all, most, or even a slight majority of evangelicals are not christian, and that it's all about a political ideology that overrides the law and any commandments of Christ, is just wildly inaccurate and saturated with ill conceived bias.

It is fairly accurate to say that a majority of white evangelicals support a president who opposes the teachings of Jesus.

Well that's not what he was saying,  but I'm sure he appreciates you moving the goal posts for him instead of having to do it himself.

You're both still ignoring the point that at least 62% of white evangelicals didn't vote for Trump.  So while they may be giving lip service merely because he's a republican, or because of the economy, or because of his favorable stance on whatever single issue they care about, the majority clearly isn't speaking with their votes.

It's laughable that the party people vote for, and the personal lives of politicians they elect have become the benchmark by which one's Christianity is measured.  How convenient!

 

[Phil1111 1,149]

13 minutes ago, Coreece said:

You're both still ignoring the point that at least 62% of white evangelicals didn't vote for Trump.  So while they may be giving lip service merely because he's a republican, or because of the economy, or because of his favorable stance on whatever single issue they care about, the majority clearly isn't speaking with their votes.

It's laughable that the party people vote for, and the personal lives of politicians they elect have become the benchmark by which one's Christianity is measured.  How convenient!

 

Wrong, as usual. Its too bad that the statistics of which you yourself quote. Make the argument for a new paradigm of political action which like a mirror stares you in the face.

[Coreece 190]

1 minute ago, Phil1111 said:

19 minutes ago, Coreece said:

You're both still ignoring the point that at least 62% of white evangelicals didn't vote for Trump.  So while they may be giving lip service merely because he's a republican, or because of the economy, or because of his favorable stance on whatever single issue they care about, the majority clearly isn't speaking with their votes.

It's laughable that the party people vote for, and the personal lives of politicians they elect have become the benchmark by which one's Christianity is measured.  How convenient!

 

Wrong, as usual. Its too bad that the statistics of which you yourself quote. Make the argument for a new paradigm of political action which like a mirror stares you in the face.

I've already demonstrated that there are at least 55 million evangelicals and about 21 million voted for Trump.  So how am I wrong?

[kallend 2,027]

18 minutes ago, Coreece said:

I've already demonstrated that there are at least 55 million evangelicals and about 21 million voted for Trump.  So how am I wrong?

It's about as misleading as saying 260 million Americans didn't vote for Trump, so he shouldn't be president.  FACT is that of those who bothered to vote, far more evangelicals voted for Trump than for his opponents.

[Phil1111 1,149]

25 minutes ago, Coreece said:

I've already demonstrated that there are at least 55 million evangelicals and about 21 million voted for Trump.  So how am I wrong?

You're getting confused a bit. Lets start with the story from the The Christian Century that I quoted most recently. It makes reference to both a political activism of evangelicals and their voting record.

" In the 2016 election, 81 percent of white evangelicals voted for Donald Trump" is the first paragraph of the story. Which is likely within the statistical error of where you got your quote from. No further interpretation or math needs to be done from this statistic. It states white, the sect of Christianity and they were voters.

The second paragraph outlines a tremendous amount of theological study, over 35 years that has been undertaken to try to understand evangelicals. Then within the last couple years to try to link those understandings to the appeal of trump.

Now in paragraph six of this article it states " what most distinguishes white American evangelicals from other Christians, other religious groups, and nonbelievers is not theology but politics. " Bingo. This is where I distance myself from them. This is the new paradigm of which Bill refers. Bill feel free to correct me.

This particular story was not chosen was not chosen after hours of digging. When the author of this story states that much research into the theology of evangelicals support for trump has been made. He is entirely correct. As is the concept that politics within that religious group dominates religious thought.

Which brings me to the "outlier" beliefs of this cult. OK I said it:

"Other religious groups voted for Trump as well, but none did so at the 81 percent level that white evangelicals did. Among Protestants, 58 percent voted for Trump; among white Catholics, 60 percent voted for Trump; among Mormons, 61 percent. In April 2017, approval of Trump had dropped among white mainline Protestants to 50 percent and among white Catholics to 53 percent. But among white evangelicals his approval rating stayed high, at 78 percent.

White evangelicals are also outliers on social and political issues. Before the school shootings in Parkland, Florida, only 38 percent of them favored stricter gun laws, compared to 57 percent of white mainline Protestants and 67 percent of Catholics. Exactly 50 percent of white mainline Protestants and white Catholics approved of Trump’s ban on refugees from seven Muslim-majority nations when it was announced last year; an overwhelming 76 percent of white evangelicals supported the policy. Racial minorities display even greater disagreements with white evangelicals than did other white Christians. More than anything else, identifying as an evangelical in the United States denotes certain attitudes about American politics and usually indicates a white racial identity. It’s not that theology isn’t important to white evangelicals; it’s just not the primary thing that distinguishes them from other religious groups."

I've quoted many similar articles like this before. From "The Atlantic" and many christian journals.

Edited March 5, 2019 by Phil1111

[kallend 2,027]

 

Any idiot can believe they have an invisible friend, but it takes a special kind of idiot to be an evangelical.

[Coreece 190]

8 minutes ago, kallend said:

29 minutes ago, Coreece said:

I've already demonstrated that there are at least 55 million evangelicals and about 21 million voted for Trump.  So how am I wrong?

It's about as misleading as saying 260 million Americans didn't vote for Trump, so he shouldn't be president.  FACT is that of those who bothered to vote, far more evangelicals voted for Trump than for his opponents. 

But you're forgetting how Phil stated that for all evangelicals it's about a political ideology that overrides the law and any commandments of Christ.  Clearly that's not true if 62% don't even bother to vote for a political ideology that is allegedly the sole driver of their faith.  For most, there are obviously more pressing issues than guns, Muslims and politics.

[billvon 2,991]

4 hours ago, Coreece said:

So how is that a "new paradigm," since that was the original question being asked?

 

That evangelical Christians support a nonreligious serial adulterer who practices pretty much the exact opposite of what Jesus taught.  It is certainly not the first time a religious group has set their standards aside to support a hypocrite - but this is a very blatant case of that.

Quote

You're both still ignoring the point that at least 62% of white evangelicals didn't vote for Trump. 

Sorry, that's a silly way to try to make your point.  40% of the people in America don't vote, period.  You can't just take a group, start with that 40%, add that to the 15% of the group that voted against X and say "see, most of them don't support X!"  I could just as validly say that more than 90% of evangelicals either voted for Trump or wanted to vote for him but couldn't.

Quote

It's laughable that the party people vote for, and the personal lives of politicians they elect have become the benchmark by which one's Christianity is measured.  How convenient!

I think it's more that one's actions determine how adherent one is to _any_ ideology.  And if a group supports Trump's actions (i.e. on the wall) that go directly against Christian teachings, then they are not being Christian in that respect.  Because that support has a direct impact on refugees - they are turned away, families are torn apart and children are put in cages. People who try to help refugees are arrested and thrown in jail.  And there's no way to spin that as being "Christian."

Again, many Christians at least acknowledge this and say "well I don't agree with what Trump does, but at least he's not Clinton."  But that means they are doing precisely what you are claiming they do not - putting political ideology above considerations of following the life of Christ as a country.

[Coreece 190]

On 3/5/2019 at 11:48 AM, billvon said:

On 3/5/2019 at 7:17 AM, Coreece said:

So how is that a "new paradigm," since that was the original question being asked?

 

That evangelical Christians support a nonreligious serial adulterer who practices pretty much the exact opposite of what Jesus taught. 

And I agree it raises a  lot of legitimate questions/concerns, but many don't seem to care to look into it beyond  "See, they're not christian, they approve of adultery!"  Like Phil, they just run with whatever appeals to their own preconceptions in order to support a biased political/social agenda.

If  your aim is to influence a particular group of people, then it's probably in your best interest to put forth an honest effort to understand them.

 

On 3/5/2019 at 11:48 AM, billvon said:

Quote

You're both still ignoring the point that at least 62% of white evangelicals didn't vote for Trump. 

Sorry, that's a silly way to try to make your point.

It was necessary because you have all these stories about how 80% of evangelicals voted for Trump - and tho that may tend to give the wrong impression, I understand why it's repeated so frequently.

But then Phil comes in here and makes all theses blanketed assumptions about all evangelicals.  That none of them are Christians anymore and have all basically traded their principles for an ideology that overrides the law and any commandment of Christ - It's all political now, this is the new paradigm!  

So if you want to talk about ALL evangelicals, then stating the fact that only 38% of them voted for Trump is relevant, and puts such biased absolutes into perspective. It gives an opportunity to pause and ask if this particular religion is as politically driven as he claims, because that number certainly suggests otherwise.

 

On 3/5/2019 at 11:48 AM, billvon said:

40% of the people in America don't vote, period.  You can't just take a group, start with that 40%, add that to the 15% of the group that voted against X and say "see, most of them don't support X!"

Good thing that's not what I said then.

 

On 3/5/2019 at 11:48 AM, billvon said:

I could just as validly say that more than 90% of evangelicals either voted for Trump or wanted to vote for him but couldn't.

No, because you'd be making a biased assumption about that number, but if you want to take that further, you could say that the only reason they couldn't vote for him was because of a moral conflict, or that they didn't want to be called anti-christian!

After all, if you vote republican, then you're a xenophobic misogynist, and support men that cheat on their wives - what kind of christian are you!

If you vote democrat, then you've cast your lot among the baby killers and homosexuals and a secular society that hates christians and thinks evangelicals are  "special kinds of idiots," and support men that cheat on their wives - what kind of christian are you!

 

On 3/5/2019 at 11:48 AM, billvon said:

if a group supports Trump's actions (i.e. on the wall) that go directly against Christian teachings, then they are not being Christian in that respect.  Because that support has a direct impact on refugees - they are turned away, families are torn apart and children are put in cages. People who try to help refugees are arrested and thrown in jail.  And there's no way to spin that as being "Christian."

In "The Wall" thread, you agreed with a well written post about struggling with empathy and compassion for those caught up in the border crisis, while still supporting the need for security and the rule of law.  So why can't that same reasoning be extended to evangelicals?  Why is it automatically anti-christian this, anti-christian that?  Because according to the PRRI poll that you mentioned, evangelicals are almost evenly divided when it comes to border refugees, with 56% opposing the separation of families.  

. . . It's very difficult for me to understand why that number isn't higher, but it appears that where you live might play a large role in this division, just as it has for the past 150+ years between evangelicals in the north and those throughout the bible belt in the south, where a cultural/racial identity tends to be more pervasive.  It should also be noted that the south has a higher concentration of evangelicals than the north, so it's unclear to me how various polls account for that disparity or any influence it may have on the numbers.  

 

On 3/5/2019 at 11:48 AM, billvon said:

Again, many Christians at least acknowledge this and say "well I don't agree with what Trump does, but at least he's not Clinton."  But that means they are doing precisely what you are claiming they do not - putting political ideology above considerations of following the life of Christ as a country.

Well the only way to avoid being accused of that would be to just stay home and not vote, but that's unlikely, especially since they're not eternally held accountable for Trump's personal behavior.  And as we've already discovered, the struggle with supporting certain political issues isn't automatically anti-christian.  There's really no question that some evangelicals support a political ideology for anti-christian reasons, but we've come a long way from the all inclusive 100% that Phil suggested when we first started this discussion.

[billvon 2,991]

1 minute ago, Coreece said:

And I agree it raises a  lot of legitimate questions/concerns, but many don't seem to care to look into it beyond  "See, they're not christian, they approve of adultery!" . . . .If  your aim is to influence a particular group of people, then it's probably in your best interest to put forth an honest effort to understand them.

I'm not a politician.  It's not my goal to influence anybody. It _is_ my goal to understand them - and unfortunately I now understand them a bit.

Quote

It was necessary because you have all these stories about how 80% of evangelicals voted for Trump . . .

So your massaging of the numbers was "necessary."  OK.

Quote

No, because you'd be making a biased assumption about that number

And when I do exactly the same thing it is a "biased assumption."

Quote

In "The Wall" thread, you agreed with a well written post about struggling with empathy and compassion for those caught up in the border crisis, while still supporting the need for security and the rule of law.  So why can't that same reasoning be extended to evangelicals? 

?? Where is it not?  People who come to the US and commit crimes should be found, arrested and deported.  Most of them are not like that, and you shouldn't judge them all based on the actions of a few.  Most Christian evangelicals DO support Trump.  But again, some of them do not, so you shouldn't judge them all based on the actions of the majority.  Judge everyone on their individual actions.

But when it comes to GROUPS you can make some generalizations.  On average, illegal immigrants are more law abiding than US citizens.  On average, evangelical Christians support Trump.

Quote

Because according to the PRRI poll that you mentioned, evangelicals are almost evenly divided when it comes to border refugees, with 56% opposing the separation of families. . . It's very difficult for me to understand why that number isn't higher

It is likely because they support Trump, and many people adopt the policies and morals of their chosen leaders.  Otherwise the liberal deep state (or whatever) wins.

Quote

Well the only way to avoid being accused of that would be to just stay home and not vote

Or they could vote against a misogynistic serial adulterer who advocates violence and hopes that harming the children of destitute strangers will discourage other destitute strangers from seeking aid from us.  Completely up to them.

Quote

There's really no question that some evangelicals support a political ideology for anti-christian reasons, but we've come a long way from the all inclusive 100% that Phil suggested when we first started this discussion.

Agreed there.