tdog 0 #1 July 10, 2006 Here is the deal... The USPA SIM instructs to release the toggles on the dominant canopy and fly with the toggles. Many jumpers I know - including our DZ policy for FJC students says - keep the brakes stowed and fly with the rear risers of the dominant canopy... The logic being - why cause one canopy to out-fly another - taking a stable situation and making it worse... I know everyone has an opinion on this, (including myself) but I am hoping there is some real data to base policy on because opinions make shitty policy - i.e. test jumps - where someone has tried both and reports on real world data... Brakes stowed and rear risers vs pop the toggles... Anyone know of a study or someone I can contact??? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waltappel 1 #2 July 10, 2006 Didn't the Golden Knights do a bunch of test jumps like that years ago? Walt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georgerussia 0 #3 July 10, 2006 There is a Pier Media video "Break Away", they have videoed all three possible scenarios: downplane, side-by-side and biplane. There is also 2-canopies-out study from Relative Workshop.* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,000 #4 July 10, 2006 >Many jumpers I know - including our DZ policy for FJC students says - >keep the brakes stowed and fly with the rear risers of the dominant >canopy... Problem with this is that most new jumpers do not know they have a two-out until the reserve starts bumping into the main. How many times have you opened and looked behind/below yourself before unstowing the brakes? It's not someplace we normally look - but if you have a cypres firing during the very end of your main deployment, that's where it will be. Thus most of the time newer jumpers will discover they have a two-out after they release the brakes - so it can make sense to teach a scenario in which that's how you fly the canopies. If you do notice, I'd leave the canopies alone as much as possible - which means not releasing brakes. Derek (poster here) did some experiments a while back and found that two similarly sized canopies tended very strongly to stay together in a side-by-side. The military also did a study a while back with large (i.e. student sized) canopies and found the same thing. Personally I have seen more problems with people cutting away from a two-out than from trying to land them together. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MrBrant 0 #5 July 10, 2006 http://www.performancedesigns.com/docs/dualsq.pdf Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tdog 0 #6 July 10, 2006 Quotehttp://www.performancedesigns.com/docs/dualsq.pdf I read this study before... It does say to fly the dominant canopy with the toggles - but it does not say the pros/cons with rear risers vs toggles... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tdog 0 #7 July 10, 2006 Quote Derek (poster here) did some experiments a while back and found that two similarly sized canopies tended very strongly to stay together in a side-by-side. The military also did a study a while back with large (i.e. student sized) canopies and found the same thing. Personally I have seen more problems with people cutting away from a two-out than from trying to land them together. Derek as in Hooknswoop... If so, we are friends, so pony up Derek... (simon says he will read this thread in 24 hours or less)... Lets take a bet on how long... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #8 July 10, 2006 QuoteDidn't the Golden Knights do a bunch of test jumps like that years ago? Yes, they did. Tom Hili, a WA jumper, did a bunch of those. he briefed our DZ on what they learned about the time we were moving our students to square reserves. The PD and USPA doctrine and recommendations drew heavily on the Knights' research. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tdog 0 #9 July 10, 2006 QuoteQuoteDidn't the Golden Knights do a bunch of test jumps like that years ago? Yes, they did. Tom Hili, a WA jumper, did a bunch of those. he briefed our DZ on what they learned about the time we were moving our students to square reserves. The PD and USPA doctrine and recommendations drew heavily on the Knights' research. Do you remember why they said toggles were better than rear risers and keeping the brakes stowed??? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #10 July 10, 2006 Remeber if breaks are stowed canopies are flying slower. If you unstow 1 set of breaks you make one of the canopies fly faster. Why to disturb a stable flying set of canopies? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tdog 0 #11 July 10, 2006 QuoteRemeber if breaks are stowed canopies are flying slower. If you unstow 1 set of breaks you make one of the canopies fly faster. Why to disturb a stable flying set of canopies? My point exactly - however the USPA and apparently the Golden Knights have real data to support otherwise??? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pjc 0 #12 July 10, 2006 Quote Personally I have seen more problems with people cutting away from a two-out than from trying to land them together. I was taught (and have heard elsewhere) that a bi-plane (1 in front of the other) if stable should be steered gently on the brakes of the dominant canopy (although I now agree risers may be better) BUT if they are side by side and the risers are clear then disconnect rsl (if you've got one) and chop the main. I believe the thinking is that a side by side is much more likely to develop into a downplane than one in front of the other. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #13 July 10, 2006 I have not flown any bi-plane yet. QuoteI believe the thinking is that a side by side is much more likely to develop into a downplane than one in front of the other. I think it is up to the control input. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,000 #14 July 10, 2006 >I believe the thinking is that a side by side is much more likely to >develop into a downplane than one in front of the other. Derek's tests revealed that it was very, very hard to force a downplane; they wanted very badly to return to a stable side by side. I teach a simpler approach. If it's controllable and will land you safely, stay with it. If not, try to separate the canopies, then cut away the main. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
azdiver 0 #15 July 11, 2006 i am relativly new to this sport and finished aff a little while ago, when i was going through the course i was told to fly the main by the toggles and leave the reserve alone. i was also told that it depends on the canopys you are fly as to wich type of formation the canopys will fly in bigger-biplane or side by side. the smaller you go-downplane is there any truth to this?light travels faster than sound, that's why some people appear to be bright until you hear them speak Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fcajump 164 #16 July 11, 2006 Only two actuals I know of beyond the PD and Golden Knight reports... Glenn Bangs report to the PIA Symposium of his two-out / instant downplane a last year (happened to him at the local DZ while the rest of us were in a seminar on what to do if you have two out... guess he shouldn't have been playing hookie... ) My own two-out during an airshow... long story short had a bumpy bi-plane (big canopies) that were going to get me into power-line trouble. Chose to chop (main in front), and in my case it cleared just fine. I recommend reading BOTH reports, consider the relative and absolute sizes of canopies used in the testing and think through your options with your specific canopies. JimAlways remember that some clouds are harder than others... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wildfan75 1 #17 July 12, 2006 I wouldn't classify my two out as a "test jump" as so much as a "really big f*ck up". It was when I was on the manta, main out first, then reserve. Side by side. Made sure main lines were clear of reserve and cutaway. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #18 July 12, 2006 Why to cut a perfectly good canopy away? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wildfan75 1 #19 July 12, 2006 In class and on the malfunction video, they stated that the only two out situation that should be landed is a bi-plane. Obviously each individual situation merits its own evaluation and decision. There is no cookie cutter what to do answer. But if they're side by side, what would you do if they started to down plane at 100 or 50 feet? I've always been told two is not better than one. Everyone, including my S&TA, who saw the event said I did the right thing. If you've got another take on it, by all means, my ears are open. If I wasn't here to learn, I certainly wouldn't be browsing the S&T area of dz.com! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest #20 July 12, 2006 Ok, question... Say your main canopy is fine and you've been flying it (brakes unstowed) and your cypress fires and BAM, 2 canopies out. Like some instructors, mine said to keep the brakes stowed and steer with the rear risers of the dominate canopy. Well, since you've been flying the main canopy brakes are not stowed. What do you do then? Put the main in full flight and steer with risers? Or keep on steering with the toggles? Thanks! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #21 July 12, 2006 QuoteOk, question... Say your main canopy is fine and you've been flying it (brakes unstowed) and your cypress fires and BAM, 2 canopies out. Like some instructors, mine said to keep the brakes stowed and steer with the rear risers of the dominate canopy. Well, since you've been flying the main canopy brakes are not stowed. What do you do then? Put the main in full flight and steer with risers? Or keep on steering with the toggles? Thanks! Why do you believe there is a risk of your AAD firing *after* you have your main fully inflated and the toggles unstowed?"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest #22 July 12, 2006 Well, it's a doubtful situation, but one of the people at my DZ had that happen to him. I'm not sure what he was doing, but it was something fast enough to make his cyress fire. It's just something that I'm curious about. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
justinb138 0 #23 July 13, 2006 QuoteWell, it's a doubtful situation, but one of the people at my DZ had that happen to him. I'm not sure what he was doing, but it was something fast enough to make his cyress fire. It's just something that I'm curious about. I've heard it happening with a Student Cypres, but to fire a Expert Cypres under canopy is pretty much impossible for most people. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 102 #24 July 13, 2006 QuoteWell, since you've been flying the main canopy brakes are not stowed. What do you do then? Put the main in full flight and steer with risers? Or keep on steering with the toggles? As you said, the main toggles are already released, so I would think it better to fly the main with very small toggle input, but only letting the toggles go back up to about the stowed position. If that wasn't very stable, you might find that a bit more or less brakes on the main might improve things.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,000 #25 July 13, 2006 >But if they're side by side, what would you do if they started to down >plane at 100 or 50 feet? During Derek's tests, this was almost impossible to force. They always tried to return to a side-by-side. A side-by-side is a pretty stable formation for canopies to fly in. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
