Separation between groups

[rscott 1]

I'm curious what the consensus is on this:

Two small groups exit an Otter. Both groups do RW or Freefly until about 4,000ft. At break-off, one of the people in the first group tracks up the line of flight, and ends up opening too close to two people from the second group.

Who screwed up?
A. The person from the first group who tracked up the line of flight.

B. The 2nd group for not allowing enough separation on exit.

C. Both.

[Kimblair13 0]

Both did something wrong. As to which is MORE wrong???
It's the packers fault.

[billvon 2,991]

>Who screwed up?

The second group. You must give enough separation assuming that someone in the first group tracks up line of flight, and someone in the second group tracks down line of flight. It is not reasonable to avoid line of flight during breakoff for any group over 2 people in size.

[DSE 5]

I'll toss in another "hmm..." into the mix..
Group A leaves, decides that they can't hook up, so changes their skydive to a freefly skydive. Group B didn't leave enough separation, but they were already doing a freefly skydive. Last person in Group A and first person in Group B end up very close to each other, and because person A ends up at 3K first, he deploys very close to where person B is heading.
Who screwed up worse? A or B?

[NWFlyer 2]

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Group A leaves, decides that they can't hook up, so changes their skydive to a freefly skydive.

I'm curious why this would be an "alternate plan" at all.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[yeyo 1]

Obviously lm no one with 46 jumps, but if theres a group going out after me, I wont track towards them. And if Im in the 2nd group, the same applies. Common sence?

Newbie question now....
If everybody from both groups pulls at 4k, like in this case, and groups have 5+ second separation. Isnt that enough? I mean, I pull at 4k, and the next group pulls at 4k, but 5+ seconds after me.

I always think a bout this, teach me.....

HISPA #93
DS #419.5

[mjosparky 4]

Quote

I'll toss in another "hmm..." into the mix..
Group A leaves, decides that they can't hook up, so changes their skydive to a freefly skydive. Group B didn't leave enough separation, but they were already doing a freefly skydive. Last person in Group A and first person in Group B end up very close to each other, and because person A ends up at 3K first, he deploys very close to where person B is heading.
Who screwed up worse? A or B?

I would look for another place to jump.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[popsjumper 2]

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...Group A leaves, decides that they can't hook up, so changes their skydive to a freefly skydive...

Plan the dive, dive the plan.
Group A is a bunch of idiots.
Think exit order, folks, exit order. and again...
Plan the dive, dive the plan.

...but then, I'm old school who worships "safety first."

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[billvon 2,991]

>Group A leaves, decides that they can't hook up, so changes their skydive to a freefly skydive.

Well:

a) If they are belly flying most of the time they are still falling at an RW speed

b) If they're so bad they can't even get to each other they are going to be all over the sky, and the group after them has to leave more time than normal anyway.

[pringles 0]

Here is my hmmm.

If they can't hook up. They shouldn't be attempting a freefly. So I am with popsjumper on this one. They should stick to the plan. If that was their plan.... ITs a lousy one.

Matt Davies

[billvon 2,991]

> but if theres a group going out after me, I wont track towards them.

That's OK as long as you are doing solos or 2 ways. However, in (say) a 5 way, do not sacrifice separation from your group to try to avoid other groups in the air! You are far more likely to run into someone from your own group than the next group out. Make sure everyone turns from the center and tracks away from each other - even if you're facing line of flight.

>If everybody from both groups pulls at 4k, like in this case, and groups
>have 5+ second separation. Isnt that enough?

Depends. From a King Air with no uppers - 5 seconds is probably enough. Otter with no uppers, 7 seconds is probably enough. The higher the uppers the more time you have to wait. For an Otter, a good rule of thumb is to always wait 7 seconds, then if the uppers are high, divide the uppers by 3 and wait that number of seconds.

[DSE 5]

Quote

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...Group A leaves, decides that they can't hook up, so changes their skydive to a freefly skydive...

Plan the dive, dive the plan.
Group A is a bunch of idiots.
Think exit order, folks, exit order. and again...
Plan the dive, dive the plan.

I'm in complete agreement, but wondered if I was off my rocker. The "A" group is a group of young guys that are a lot of fun, but that often change their dive plan mid-jump. Usually no one cares, but in the mentioned skydive, I was in Group B, and both myself and another were a bit surprised to see a body in our airspace quite a distance below us. Mentioned it to a couple other more "leader-like" skydivers at the same time we told the kids "don't change the dive-plan, if you can't get together, don't go to freefly." The "wiser/experienced" guys kept insisting that it "just doesn't matter much." AFAIC, I don't want to see anyone more or less straight below me as they're getting close to pulling.
BTW,exit order is always discussed prior to boarding the aircraft. The question here isn't exit order, but rather a young group arbitrarily not sticking to their announced plan.

[rscott 1]

Back to the original question, thanks everyone. I agree with Bill. I was the person in the first group who did a 180 and tracked up the line of flight. When we talked about it afterwards, the two people from the second group explained to me that they were much more experienced than I, and that it was 100% my fault for tracking up the line of flight. Since I'm used to doing mid-sized RW, I don't usually give much thought to avoiding the line of flight during track, I just track away at 180 degrees from my group as fast as I can. Like Bill says, it's simply not feasible on most mid-sized group jumps to avoid line of flight, so the second group HAS to allow for it.

[WeakMindedFool 0]

Assume you're surrounded by idiots would be a good place to start. Give them more room. I jump at a place that has no set exit order. They will put tandems out first, put large freefly groups out before rw goups. You just have to give space...while people scream, "get the fuck out!". Smile and give the extra space. If ppl wont learn, allow for stupidity in your plan.

Faith in a holy cause is to a considerable extent a substitute for lost faith in ourselves.
-Eric Hoffer -
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[wildman2231 0]

As I am learning,I agree with you and pops. In a RW group of 4 (for example) 180* and track off.
The 2nd group should take into account that 4 people will be tracking at thier break altitude,on any given heading, and allow proper seperation time on exit. Also I believe that group 1 should have stuck to thier dive plan. I'm so new at having this drilled to me. I hope I never loose heading awareness even if doing a 4-way. And hope I don't feel "rushed" to exit. I like that where I jump,I only get smiles when I count or ask experienced divers,OK now? Being this new to the sport I hope I'm never so distracted by RW that I'm just another point in the star(as I'm just learning)to not be heading aware. I certainly have been in past student jumps. Also Have seen open canopies on previuos jumps directly below me,after opening.Although with alot of vertical seperation.(Hence importance of pulling on altitude) Especially after my unstable pull last week The pilot told us jump run heading prior to that jump,(not always necessarily directly into the wind) I'm familiar with the area, And the Jumpmaster coordinated exits by groups and pull altitudes. I hope I'm not wrong to think this is not standard practice at other DZ's.

I'm fine...crazy people don't know they're crazy...No,Really!

[bob.dino 1]

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Group A ... changes their skydive to a freefly skydive. Group B didn't leave enough separation, but they were already doing a freefly skydive. Last person in Group A and first person in Group B end up very close to each other...

Changing from RW to FF speeds mid-jump will mean that Group A experiences less freefall drift than planned. However, if Group B left soon enough that that becomes a factor, there was a fairly serious exit separation problem in the first place.

Are you sure that the person from Group A that ended up under Group B wasn't backsliding madly up jump-run?

[jim2752 0]

Exit separation should be based on the aircrafts ground speed on jump run. Ground speed is based on two factors: strength of the winds at altitude and how much the pilot slows the aircraft. The higher the ground speed, the less exit separation that is needed between groups. And vice versa. The aircraft (PAC 750) at my home DZ has relatively slow ground speeds on jump run. I've seen it as slow as 19 knots!! On that particular jump run, we were leaving well over 20 seconds of separation between groups.

Have fun and be safe.

[DSE 5]

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Are you sure that the person from Group A that ended up under Group B wasn't backsliding madly up jump-run?

Nah...the kid was tracking away from his buddies, and apparently didn't realize he was tracking the flight line/jump run. DZO heard about the jump yesterday, and had a quiet chat with the group this a.m.