Aviatrr 0 #1 October 6, 2001 A new bulletin regarding the Crossfire was issued today. The URL is http://www.icaruscanopies.com/bulletin2.htm. Below is the bulletin in full.Quote Product Safety BulletinProduct Safety Bulletin #20011004Crossfire Safety Bulletin #2Limited quantity of canopies grounded until further noticeLimited quantity of canopies subject to S&TA approval before useDate of Notice: October 04, 2001 Effective: Immediately Applicability: Attached lists of Icarus Crossfire Canopies Compliance: Mandatory or Subject to S&TA approval Restriction: Attached list of canopies known to have manufacturing tolerance issues are grounded until further notice.Subsequent list of Crossfire’s which may be affected are subject to S&TA or DZO approval for before use.Exclusions: European Built Crossfire’s are not affected (as attached to this bulletin) Canopies approved for use by S&TA’sResolution: Canopies to be certified as being within Manufacturing tolerance standards and/or repaired if necessary Information: Refer Attached Document Additional Information: Contact:Simon MundellIcarus Canopies,1627, US 1,Sebastian,FL 32958, USAPh. (561) 581-8131,Fax (561) 581-8132simon@icaruscanopies.com Background: Since our Safety Bulletin dated September 14, 2001 we have received several calls from Crossfire owners reporting instability with their canopy.With these incidents coming to light, we feel it necessary to issue a more specific warning with regards to canopies which may be affected and a mandatory grounding of those parachutes known to be affected by the anomaly as detailed in Safety Bulletin #20010914 dated Sept 14. (Refer attached for serial number listings).Required Action:Grounded Canopies (attached as annex two to this safety bulletin)Parachutes with serial numbers attached to this list that are known to have an anomaly are grounded until further notice. Refer attached serial number list titled Grounded Canopies for further details.Limited Grounding Subject to S&TA and/or DZO approval (attached as annex three to this safety bulletin)Crossfire’s on the list of canopies deemed as POTENTIALLY AFFECTED are subject to S&TA and/or DZO approval before flight.S&TA’s must be familiar with the skydivers jumping the potentially affected Crossfire’s (refer attached list) and ensure that the jumper is experienced and capable of making decisions regarding the reliability of his or her parachute. Additionally, they must have done a minimum number of jumps to have PREVIOUSLY flown the canopy in turbulent conditions and on front risers. They must meet these requirements and have not experienced any anomaly on their canopy in order for the canopy to be approved for flight.Attached (annex one) is a detailed explanation to ensure S&TA’s, DZO’s and users are well-informed and capable of making educated decisions.This bulletin and the canopy serial number lists are also available to view on our website www.icaruscanopies.com.For more information contact:Simon MundellIcarus Canopies, Inc.1627 US Highway 1Sebastian, Florida 32958Telephone 561-581-8131--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Annex OneOverview:Following is a detailed explanation to ensure a good understanding of the problem and to avoid bias or misinterpretation.The Icarus Crossfire was designed to be the highest performing non-cross braced canopy available, able to achieve realms of flight previously considered impossible on non-cross braced parachutes with a lot of effort being put into the smoothest openings available. It’s fair to say that it’s lived up to that claim.During the canopy’s testing program and subsequent release there were no anomalies apparent with the design. When we learned that some canopies in the field started to experience buffeting we implemented a minor change to the canopy’s trim in January 2001 and production continued. Contrary to some statements made in various public forums there have been no changes made to the canopy’s nose design or the planform shape. Since the trim was modified, we documented a few isolated incidents of instability on Crossfire’s. Upon inspecting these canopies, each was confirmed to be the result of manufacturing the canopy out of tolerance. Upon re-building or reworking the affected canopies, the anomaly disappeared. With the high number of canopies in the field operating normally we did not feel it was widespread, and saw it as a limited quality issue. Testing and investigating was underway.After the incident at the Pond Swooping Nationals, additional calls were received about instability and buffeting on some canopy’s prompting our service bulletin of Sept 14 urging caution on front risers.The problem:The Icarus Crossfire is a high performance, constant cell aspect ratio, fully surface shaped, truly elliptical, inflatable wing. The issue with such modern designs is they are far more susceptible to trim and wing shape variances than is the case with older design canopies. This appears to be the crux of this issue.Upon inspecting canopies that experienced buffeting or instability, inconsistent manufacturing tolerances are apparent in each of them. Safety bulletin #20010914 Sept 14 was applied to Crossfire’s built from the specific location where these tolerance issues were apparent. Also listed on the bulletin were canopies that had the old trim specifications irrelevant of their origin of manufacture. During subsequent testing we have discovered parachutes with lesser degrees of manufacturing tolerance issues that experience these anomalies hence we expanded our warning (October 01) to include additional parachutes.Excluded are those Crossfire’s built from our European facility, none of which have experienced any known anomaly or have any known tolerance issues. Putting this in perspective:Since the canopy’s trim was modified Jan ’01 we are yet to experience any problems with any canopies built at our European facility. We have manufactured close on 1000 Crossfire’s to date. Of these, the majority (approx 600) have been produced at our European facility (those excluded from this bulletin). The balance (subject to this bulletin) were produced in the USA plus a handful from New Zealand.We estimate the European built Crossfire’s will have done a combined total of between 100,000 and 200,000 jumps to date without experiencing any anomaly that we are aware of. Certainly a conclusive result by anyone’s standards.Our European facility is unique in the fact that it produces canopies to NATO’s AQAP and ISO9000 quality assurance procedures. Their quality systems and manufacturing procedures set a standard in our industry. The quality inspection process that canopies go through during and after they are manufactured insure that each piece of a canopies construction fits to within very exacting tolerances.This offers a significant insight into the relation between the anomaly and manufacturing tolerances.How many canopies may be affected?When we calculate the percentages from the respondents to our Safety Bulletin of Sept 14, between 5% and 7% of the 380 canopies on the bulletin have experienced issues or between 1.9% and 2.7% of the total number of Crossfire’s produced.Once again we request that ALL Crossfire owners who have not yet responded to please contact our office or email crossfire@icaruscanopies.com so that we can complete an accurate record of all canopies.Note: The majority of the NON-European built canopies that we have inspected have been produced within adequate tolerances. We are NOT implying that all the NON-European built canopies have unacceptable manufacturing tolerances. What about other Icarus Canopies?As overviewed previously, it has become apparent that the Crossfire requires exacting manufacturing standards. Other canopies in our range are not affected in the same way by such tolerance issues.Note: Where we choose to manufacture our products has been changed and we do NOT see this issue as ongoing.What Icarus is doing to resolve the situation:At present we have a joint American-European team working in Europe consisting of test jumpers, riggers and Aeronautical Engineers.Initially we have commenced the identification of each manufacturing inconsistency that exists in each parachute we have that experiences the anomaly. We are then test jumping each parachute and then slowly correcting the defects so we can accurately measure the points at which these inaccuracies create the anomaly.This is more difficult than it may appear due to the compounding effect that can be created if several minor inconsistencies are all apparent in the one canopy. Any one or two minor (or major) inconsistencies may not have any affect. However, when several small tolerance issues are combined the anomaly may become apparent.As a result we must be confident that we have identified each and every variable, individually and combined which creates the anomaly.Once completed, we are endeavoring to produce a set of measuring standards by which the canopies can be compared. Canopies within the specifications will be approved for use. Those that fall outside these specifications will be repaired or replaced.Additional to this process it is apparent that the Crossfire design, like any high performance piece of equipment, requires accuracy in its construction and therefore does not leave a lot of margin for mistakes. As a result we are also experimenting with other minor adjustments that will ensure the rigidity in parachutes even if tolerance issues exist. This is proving very successful and may be applied to all Crossfire’s in the field and subsequent Crossfire’s that we manufacture. We are currently having success with trim options that appear to stabilize even the most affected canopies.While we are achieving positive results, additional testing is being conducted before we are prepared to conclude our results.New Canopies: Whilst we are confident of the reliability of Crossfire’s produced within tight tolerances (including all of those from our European facility) we are also investigating possible modifications to the panel shaping to allow for an additional safety margin in the manufacturing process.Recommendation: We know that most of the Crossfire’s out there are solid canopies. We feel the balance is to let everybody know all the information we have available. Let people know the most likely affected serial numbers. Ask people to stay off front risers down low and avoid jumping in turbulent conditions.A note on turbulence: Turbulence is a major factor in skydiving which kills or injures many skydivers every year. Pilots and Aeronautical Engineers will know the full extent of how serious turbulence can be. Do not underestimate how serious it can be regardless of the canopy you jump. The majority of experienced Crossfire pilots know their canopies are safe. They have jumped them in countless meteorological conditions and performed countless riser maneuvers, others will not be sure and some will know their canopies are affected.If you are in doubt or have limited experience on your canopy, then don’t jump your canopy until we resolve this issue as a precautionary measure.Actions:Limited Grounding Subject to S&TA and/or DZO approval (attached as annex three)We have detailed this information to offer Crossfire users, S&TA’s and DZO’s the necessary information to make educated decisions. We recommend to S&TA’s and DZO’s that they are familiar with the skydivers jumping the potentially affected Crossfire’s (refer attached list) and ensure that the jumper is experienced and capable of making decisions regarding the reliability of his or her parachute. Additionally, they must have done a minimum number of jumps to have PREVIOUSLY flown the canopy in turbulent conditions and on front risers. Should they meet these requirements and have not experienced any anomaly on their canopy then we see it as most appropriate that you and the jumper make an educated decision based on this body of information. Should they have limited experience either as a skydiver or on the canopy then we recommend temporarily grounding their canopy as a precautionary measure until such time as we can approve it for use or modify it if necessary. Additionally the parachutes attached to this list that are known to have an anomaly are grounded until such time as we can approve them, alter them or replace them. (Attached as annex two).If your canopy is on the list of grounded canopies please contact Icarus Canopies. We will work with you as much as possible and practical to ensure minimal disruption to your jumping. If your canopy is not on the list but you do detect flight anomalies please get in contact with us. Note: Should our investigations offer any greater cause for concern we will not hesitate in implementing more stringent directives.Trim Modifications: (attached as annex four)Also attached is a list of canopies that are required to be returned to Icarus Canopies for a trim modification. These are canopies which have the old trim specifications.Note: if your canopy has been re-lined since January 2001 it will have been fitted with the new trim and a re-trim is not needed. Spectra Line - Line Set Change Required to VECTRAN:Any Crossfire’s with Spectra line require a change to Vectran. Spectra line does shrink rapidly and may create issues as it ages.Note: Vectran is mandatory due to its superior trim qualitiesContact Icarus Canopies for details.Closing Note:Icarus Canopies has enjoyed tremendous growth over the past couple of years. We have secured a market position which seemed impossible two years ago. We have achieved this by going the extra mile for our customers and by designing some of the most revolutionary canopies the industry has seen in a long time. We have invested a significant amount of time and money to achieve this position and we are not about to ignore our responsibilities as a leading canopy manufacturer. We are not infallible, as no company is, nor are we a giant corporation with unlimited resources. Our goals extend well beyond our current market position and we fully intend to be around to realize them. We appreciate your support and understanding and will do all in our power to fully resolve this situation as rapidly as possible.Should you have any questions please don’t hesitate to contact:Simon MundellIcarus Canopies,1627, US 1,Sebastian,FL 32958, USAPh. (561) 581-8131,Fax (561) 581-8132simon@icaruscanopies.com --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Annex TwoGrounded CanopiesCrossfire’s with the serial numbers as listed below are grounded until further notice pending evaluation and approval or modification by Icarus Canopies8139 8160 8186 8244 96612851 96612861 96612876 96612909 96612998 96613020 96613031 96613054 96613138 96613156 96613183 96613226 96613258 96613278 96613280 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Annex ThreeCanopies subject to S&TA approval before useCrossfire’s with the serial numbers as listed below are subject to S&TA approval before use.8132 96612835 96612929 96612982 96613100 8138 96612836 96612931 96612983 96613101 8148 96612848 96612932 96612994 96613102 8178 96612852 96612933 96612995 96613103 8251 96612854 96612937 96612997 96613104 8259 96612855 96612938 96613008 96613105 8432 96612859 96612939 96613012 96613106 8433 96612860 96612941 96613013 96613107 8434 96612862 96612943 96613014 96613110 8435 96612865 96612944 96613015 96613111 8436 96612866 96612945 96613016 96613112 8438 96612871 96612946 96613019 96613113 92912345 96612872 96612947 96613028 96613114 94112350 96612873 96612948 96613032 96613116 94812367 96612874 96612949 96613033 96613118 96612340 96612875 96612950 96613034 96613123 96612790 96612877 96612951 96613042 96613124 96612801 96612878 96612952 96613043 96613125 96612802 96612879 96612953 96613044 96613126 96612803 96612880 96612954 96613045 96613127 96612804 96612881 96612955 96613046 96613128 96612805 96612882 96612960 96613047 96613129 96612806 96612883 96612961 96613048 96613130 96612807 96612896 96612965 96613049 96613131 96612808 96612897 96612966 96613050 96613132 96612809 96612898 96612967 96613051 96613136 96612810 96612899 96612968 96613068 96613137 96612811 96612900 96612969 96613085 96613139 96612812 96612904 96612970 96613087 96613140 96612813 96612905 96612971 96613088 96613141 96612814 96612908 96612972 96613089 96613142 96612815 96612910 96612973 96613091 96613143 96612816 96612911 96612974 96613092 96613144 96612817 96612912 96612975 96613093 96613145 96612818 96612914 96612976 96613094 96613146 96612819 96612919 96612977 96613095 96613147 96612820 96612924 96612978 96613096 96613148 96612821 96612926 96612979 96613097 96613149 96612822 96612927 96612980 96613098 96613150 96612823 96612928 96612981 96613099 96613151 96613152 96613224 96613277 96912365 96613153 96613225 96613282 96912367 96613154 96613227 96613283 96912368 96613155 96613228 96613284 96613157 96613229 96613285 96613158 96613230 96613286 96613159 96613231 96613306 96613165 96613232 96613317 96613166 96613233 96613318 96613167 96613234 96613319 96613168 96613235 96613321 96613169 96613236 96613322 96613170 96613238 96613323 96613171 96613239 96613324 96613176 96613243 96613325 96613177 96613244 96613326 96613178 96613245 96613327 96613184 96613247 96613328 96613185 96613248 96613329 96613186 96613249 96613330 96613187 96613250 96613331 96613188 96613251 96613332 96613189 96613252 96613333 96613194 96613253 96613334 96613195 96613255 96613335 96613196 96613257 96613337 96613197 96613259 96613345 96613198 96613260 96613346 96613199 96613261 96613347 96613200 96613263 96712347 96613201 96613264 96712357 96613202 96613265 96712364 96613203 96613267 96812349 96613204 96613269 96812356 96613205 96613270 96912348 96613206 96613271 96912355 96613215 96613272 96912358 96613221 96613273 96912360 96613222 96613275 96912362 96613223 96613276 96912363 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Annex FourCanopies requiring re-trimCrossfire’s with the serial numbers as listed below require a re-trim by Icarus Canopies before 31 October 2001.Contact Icarus Canopies for details.8132 50212674 96212746 8138 50212677 96212749 8139 50212689 96212752 8148 50212701 96312732 8178 50212701 96312738 8186 50212707 96312741 8244 50212707 96312747 8251 50212722 96312750 8259 50312558 96312753 8432 50312570 96312759 8433 50312576 96312765 8434 50312579 96312795 8435 50312600 96312807 8436 50312615 96312810 8438 50312618 50112562 50312621 50112574 50312624 50112580 50312630 50112586 50312648 50112601 50312654 50112607 50312657 50112613 50312666 50112619 50312675 50112622 50312684 50112646 50312705 50112667 50312705 50112676 50312717 50112679 50312729 50112685 96112739 50112694 96112748 50112703 96112751 50112718 96112754 50112727 96112766 50212560 96112784 50212560 96112793 50212572 96112796 50212575 96112808 50212617 96112811 50212623 96212737 50212659 96212740 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Annex Five Canopies approved for full use Crossfire’s with the serial numbers as listed below are NOT subject to this Safety Bulletin. Note: Due to the quantity of serial numbers involved, the serial numbers below are listed in ranges (i.e. from & to). ANY & ALL serial number listed WITHIN these ranges of serial numbers applies. Serial Number Ranges From To 94312960 94313148 96112742 96112799 96112835 96112898 96112904 96112909 96112911 96112994 96113000 96113095 96113101 96113192 96113201 96113224 96212743 96212755 96212770 96212776 96212785 96212791 96212794 96212800 96212803 96212836 96212842 96212896 96212908 96212998 96213001 96213096 96213102 96213199 96213202 96213240 96312756 96312761 96312763 96312894 96312915 96312993 96313002 96313097 96313106 96313185 96313200 96313223 Mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
alan 1 #2 October 6, 2001 QuoteDuring the canopy’s testing program and subsequent release there were no anomalies apparent with the design. When we learned that some canopies in the field started to experience buffeting we implemented a minor change to the canopy’s trim in January 2001 and production continued. Contrary to some statements made in various public forums there have been no changes made to the canopy’s nose design or the planform shape.For more information contact:Simon MundellIcarus Canopies, Inc.1627 US Highway 1Sebastian, Florida 32958Telephone 561-581-8131It should be noted that previously, Dan Preston had this to say:Quotethe defect on the crossfires is not the trim. it has to do with the way the bottom skin on the nose is liped up on the non-loaded rib. look at the advertisments, you will see that the nose design is different on ads from last year.My point? Be careful about what you hear. Get as much information as you can and take into consideration the sources. We have two apparently conflicting statements here and both sources could have a motivation to "spin" the truth. Be careful and seek independant confirmation when possible.alan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #3 October 7, 2001 I just wanted to let the Crossfire owners out there know that if you have a "questionable" canopy some DZ's might not let you jump anymore. You might want to call ahead before going to a new DZ with those Crossfires......Taken from rec.skydiving today....QuoteI don't know exactly what is going on with the Crossfires. But I will giveIcarus the benefit of the doubt....But as a DZO and S&TA..It would beabsolutely CRAZY, INSANE ,NUTSO etc for me to allow anybody to jump a canopy on"the list" That's just asking for legal trouble....ALL you DZO's & S&TAsbeware!!! I'm not qualified to "certify" their problematic canopies as safe tojump..only they can do that. Sorry, but if you have a Crossfire on the list,you're not jumping it at my DZ until Icarus says it's OK..I resent themtransferring the responsibility of that decision onto us. Now we have to looklike the Bad guys when we won't let somebody jump one of those canopies.Cindy Pirkkalaskydivetallahassee.comBe safe, be smooth, be fast..... and most importantly.... be phree Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites cobaltdan 0 #4 October 10, 2001 food for thought.precision copies icarus canopies minus crossfire. this was long before any public issues on the crossfire.why didn't george galloway copy the crossfire too. instead he licensed a competing design from germany....icarus states only american (precision made) canopies are potentially effected....i do not believe this to be true (as i have an effected crossfire that is from europe). but, this does serve to make precision (effectively an ex icarus partner and now competitor) look quite bad.icarus states it is a line trim problem, not a design defect with the canopy.if the problem is simply line trim why has the line specification sheet not been posted. anyone with a tape measure can check line trim. for those of you not familiar with how line trim is checked it is simply measuringeach line and comparing the length to that listed on a chart.if this is a tollerence issue, why has icarus not stated the applicable specifications with required tollerences for anyone or anyrigger to measure. why would an s&ta have to certify their product to be safe, most especially without knowing the exactly what to measure. what does being familiar with someones piloting skills have anything to do with a tollerence issue of a canopy.daniel prestonatair aerodynamics Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites weid14 0 #5 October 11, 2001 Leave it alone Dan, you're a competitor, I always hated it when someone selling to me slammed the competition. tell me how good your stuff is, let me make my own decision. Don't put down the competition, makes you look bad. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Aviatrr 0 #6 October 11, 2001 Quote icarus states only american (precision made) canopies are potentially effected....i do not believe this to be true (as i have an effected crossfire that is from europe). Actually, Icarus states that the problems they have seen are with the canopies made in the US AND New Zealand - but that they have not seen any problems with any canopies from Europe.. Quote icarus states it is a line trim problem, not a design defect with the canopy. All the info that I have gotten from Icarus says that it is a manufacturing tolerance(not line trim) issue, but that the line trim is also very important.. I'm still waiting to find out what the deal is with my canopy that collapsed - I need to call Simon tomorrow to find out..Mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Haggis 0 #7 October 11, 2001 I don't think that's very fair. I know Dan is a competitor (he's never tried to hide the fact) and so can't be expected to be completely impartial but by the same token, Icarus have got a vested interest here too.If someone who's gone to the trouble of tunnel testing a Crossfire has something to say about it, I want to hear it. Let's remember that we're are not talking about competing washing machine manufacturers here, we're talking about canopies that can injure and kill people if they are faulty in design and/or manufacture.If un-truths are uttered, let Icarus respond or the libel courts deal with it.I own a Crossfire and it's easily the best canopy I've ever flown (love it love it love it) but I'm still interested in hearing more than one side (Icarus's) of the story.I don't think it makes Dan look bad and if I ever tire of my Crossfire, a Cobalt will be at the top of my list of canopies to demo (as well as a smaller Crossfire) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Geoff 0 #8 October 11, 2001 The bulletin is contradictory about whether European canopies are affected.At one point the bulletin states"European Built Crossfire’s are not affected"and later"Any Crossfire’s with Spectra line require a change to Vectran. "- presumably that includes European Crossfires with Spectra lines. Why change the lines if the canopy is not affected?I had a new Crossfire on order. I maintained confidence through the fatality at the Ranch and the first bulletin. But Mike's story followed by the second bulletin was just too much. I've now lost confidence in the product and cancelled my order.Why cancel? I would probably get a fine canopy, but I'd always have this doubt in the back of my mind which would spoil my fun, plus I expect the resale value of Crossfires to go through the floor.I'll re-consider in a few months time, if Icarus can keep their story (a) the same and (b) self-consistent for a while AND we don't get any more horror stories like Mike's.Or I might get a Cobalt.Geoff Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites weid14 0 #9 October 11, 2001 because spectra shrinks to a MUCH greater extent than vectran. the shrinkage will bring the canopy out of trim - like any other canopy made in the world without regard to manufacturer. The Crossfire is much more intolerant of the out of trim condition. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites weid14 0 #10 October 11, 2001 Tunnel testing is fine, every competitor checks out the other guys product. shoot, Icarus has a wind tunnel they test designs in. Dan could present his case in a different way, he is speculating, present facts, and have dta to back it up. Wind tunnel testing is one thing, knowing what you are seeing is another. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Geoff 0 #11 October 11, 2001 Absolutely true of course. My point is that the bulletin is not clear as to whether European-built Crossfires with Spectra lines are considered safe by Icarus.Geoff Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites weid14 0 #12 October 11, 2001 To answer the question (my opinion, I have no connection with them) -- they feel they are good as long as they are in trim. They want to replace all spectra lines with vectran to help keep them in trim. I make that opinion from talking with the facility in Sebastian. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkymonkeyONE 4 #13 October 11, 2001 Quoteevery competitor checks out the other guys product. shoot, Icarus has a wind tunnel they test designs in. Dan could present his case in a different way, he is speculating, present facts, and have dta to back it up..I can promise you that Dan Preston is not "speculating" anything. He is plenty smart enough to write only what he knows and has seen. Now if you and others out there believe that he is posting here solely for the purpose of selling his product (and thusly to downtrod others), you are mistaken. Dan is an engineer, not a fast-food cook turned parachute salesman. He is fascinated by all things technical and spends an exhorbitant amount of time tinkering with things that interest him. He build his own data recording instruments and video equipment when "what he needs" does not exist. He will sit down with anyone and talk all day long about things he is working on. Dan is not parading around going "Icarus sucks"or "Precision sucks", etc. What he IS doing is pointing out some technical problems on equipment in the field, which (as we have seen) have led to catastrophic and near catastrophic loss. Now, that being said, who would you rather hear it from; an engineer (who happens to sell and design parachutes), or some random jumper who really hasn't laid his hands on the product?Now, some here might say that "Chuck is only sticking up for Dan because he is sponsored by him." That is not the case at all. First of all, I still pay for my parachutes and jump an Atair canopy by choice. Second, I have been around skydiving long enough (literally all my life) to have seen this exact same situation more than once; the Nova fiasco key among them. I find it refreshing that there are educated technicians out in the field actually doing independant testing on products. By the way, Dan is using a NASA facility for the testing he is conducting and I am quite sure that he will not hesitate to publish the results of their findings.Chuck "I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites weid14 0 #14 October 11, 2001 Chuck, I'm not debating Dan's techinical knowledge -- (he is an instrument engineer BTW) -- I am also an engineer, in fact,I desgined part of an aircraft wing for a senior project many moons ago. Dan is speculating on the split bewteen Icarus and Precision. If he wants to point out techinical problems, excellent -- please do it... it will educate others. Please also give a link to supporting data -- what were the conditions, what was the baseline, what were the vaiables held constant, what were the variables allowed to change, and what were the results of those changes-- now that an engineer would have if they were doing design and testing. All I ask is that he provide that data to back up his statements, and don't speculate on a business arrangement between companies that he doesn't know. I don't have an axe to grinds with either comnpnay, Cobalt makes an excellent canopy, I've flown a couple. all I ask is present facts and not speculate on stuff that really is not relavent to the issue. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhreeZone 20 #15 October 11, 2001 My questions are that if the tolerences for the lines are so close that Specta lines are'nt acceptible, how are riggers going to reline thier own/customers canopies? Many of the riggers that I know perfer to reline thier own canopy and save money rather then paying someone else to do what they can already do. If I had a Crossfire I'd be scared that I'd make the lines just a fraction off and have a worse issue then before the line change.Does anyone know if Icarus is going to wave the labor fees associated with these repairs since they can't be done by your rigger anymore?If vectran is used as the only line choice, how long is it going to before there is another broken stering line during flare/hook injury? I know most people don't take enough care in inspecting thier lines to know the breaking point of Vectan lines. Spectra lines are lots more clear even they are going to break. Any answers out there for these questions?Be safe, be smooth, be fast..... and most importantly.... be phree Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites cloud9 0 #16 October 11, 2001 David I didn't get from Dan's post even close to what you got. I don't think he speculated on the split between icarus and precisson. What he said was icarus said only the US made crossfires were effected (made by precission) Dan pointed out that, that made precission an ex-partner look bad. I agree it does. He also said he disagree's that in his opinion the European crossfire he has, also has a flaw. Opinion is the key word here. He also pointed out that george could have copied many other canopies including the crossfire but elected to go with the German made Nitron. Why? I would like to know the answer to that one myself.He also pointed out if its a line trim problem then why not give out specs so folks could check their own canopy or have it checked by a rigger. That don't look good.I know the S&TA at my DZ has no way of knowing what crossfires are safe or not. He can only get that from the factory, so why do they put it on him to decide what canopies are ok to fly?As far as references to indicate the technical data why hasn't icarus given any of that either? Its their canopy but they don't show any test data.I don't own either canopy in fact I jump a Triathlon, but I do like getting other folks opinions and information. I would never buy or not buy a canopy based on the opinion of one person, but I would certainly try to find more information based on a person's opinion.In any case I appriciated Dan's information, and I hope he continues to report what he has. I also hope that if Dan had a problem with one of his canopies he would be just as honest and direct in reporting that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skybytch 273 #17 October 11, 2001 Quotethat made precission an ex-partner look bad. I agree it does. imho, Icarus is showing incredible amounts of restraint in NOT making Precision look bad. Think about it - they could be proclaiming to the world that the company that built those canopies screwed them up on purpose. Instead, they seem to me to be taking the high road on that whole side of the issue. QuoteHe also pointed out that george could have copied many other canopies including the crossfire but elected to go with the German made Nitron.Perhaps there's a clause or two in the original agreement between Precision and Icarus that prevented Precision from copying the Crossfire... would certainly be something I'd insist on if I had an outside company producing canopies for me.pull and flare,lisa Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SBS 0 #18 October 11, 2001 I want to try to address some comments and questions in these posts, based on my many conversations with Icarus, and my understanding of the problems with the canopies:"I resent them transferring the responsibility of that decision onto us."I can see how it may be taken like that, but what they intended to do was to give the S&TA the ability to "unground" a canopy if they are certain that it is not one that is affected. They recognize that there are some people in this sport who would be out of work without their canopies....some of whom have thousands of jumps, have flown their canopies in all conditions, and know for a fact that theirs does not have an issue with collapsing, otherwise it would have shown up before this point. I think the position of keeping all possibly affected canopies grounded is reasonable, and what they have done is allowed you the leway to go either way on the issue. I have mixed feelings on their involvement of DZO's/S&TA's, but still think it's a valid option that they had."why didn't george galloway copy the crossfire too."Who knows....but, if it is true that they have issues manufacturing the Crossfire, why would they go through the trouble of licensing it, if they already know that the ones that they are turning out from their facility have problems? I'm not making a statement either way as far as who is at fault, but it's just food for thought. "icarus states it is a line trim problem, not a design defect with the canopy. if the problem is simply line trim why has the line specification sheet not been posted. anyone with a tape measure can check line trim. for those of you not familiar with how line trim is checked it is simply measuring each line and comparing the length to that listed on a chart."As far as my discussions with them and what I got from the bulletins, they have not made that statement. What they have said is that it is a tolerance issue that can, in some cases, be solved by adjusting the trim on a canopy. Some will be solved by changing the trim, and some will have to be rebuilt. Either way, it is not an actual issue of line trim. Due to this fact, it is not a simple issue of putting a correct line set on a canopy, but custom building a line set for each specific canopy."why would an s&ta have to certify their product to be safe, most especially without knowing the exactly what to measure."It's not an issue of measuring, it's an issue of knowing a jumper, how experienced he/she is as a canopy pilot, and knowing that he/she has flown the canopy through numerous conditions for hundreds of jumps without a problem. Example: Joe jumper with 500 jumps bought a Crossfire a couple of months ago and has put 40 jumps on it, and it appears on the list. He really does not have a case for the "ungrounding" of his canopy. Example 2: A videographer from the DZ with 1000, 2000, 3000 jumps, etc. with a couple hundred jumps on the canopy, flown using toggle input, front risers, in heat and in cold, in wind and in none, says that there are no issues with his/her canopy. That is a situation in which the DZO may want to consider allowing the jumper to use the canopy at his/her own risk."The bulletin is contradictory about whether European canopies are affected. At one point the bulletin states "European Built Crossfire’s are not affected" and later "Any Crossfire’s with Spectra line require a change to Vectran." "This isn't contradictory at all. These are two separate issues. Whether a canopy was manufactured in Europe or in the USA, spectra line is going to shrink, whereas vectran will not. What they are saying is that with these problems that they are experiencing, they want as little working against the proper function of the canopy as possible. What they want to get out on the market are proper representations of what the Crossfire can be, and one made with Spectra is not the best canopy possible."if Icarus can keep their story (a) the same" I haven't heard their story change from day one, only become more detailed. "Dan is using a NASA facility for the testing he is conducting and I am quite sure that he will not hesitate to publish the results of their findings."I would personally, love to see the technical information that he finds, whether that be consistant or inconsistant with what Icarus says, as long as the statement is comprised of facts, and not interpretation of what someone has said, or interpretation of said facts. THAT seems to me to be what we read on this thread. I am not slamming Dan, and appreciate his involvement in discussions as an intelligent person and engineer, but as he is a competitor in the industry, I think it's important that there always be an incredible amount of effort made towards presenting a position with "bias-less" fact. (did I just make up a word?) :-)"My questions are that if the tolerences for the lines are so close that Specta lines are'nt acceptible, how are riggers going to reline thier own/customers canopies?" I can't make any technical statement about exactly how much these canopies can and can't be out of trim, but to put it in perspective, it is possible for spectra steering lines to shrink a matter of inches in less than a hundred jumps. We are not talking about a centimeter being a serious issue. Also, things to consider...1) If you do not have faith that your rigger can hit the mark, maybe he shouldn't be relining your high performance canopy.2) There are manufacturers that do not sell line sets for canopies...if Icarus were to mandate that the canopies be returned to them for reline, they would not be the first manufacturer to do so."If vectran is used as the only line choice, how long is it going to before there is another broken stering line during flare/hook injury? I know most people don't take enough care in inspecting thier lines to know the breaking point of Vectan lines."This is scary. It is a scary issue that you have brought up, as well as a scary position that you maintain. That is, that the manufacturer would be responsible for an accident, because someone did not properly maintain their gear and perform adequate gear checks on a regular basis. High performance means high maintenance, and that is something that someone jumping a high performance canopy MUST accept. This is the same with the Extremes and the Velocities, and any other canopy with vectran line. Someone who is going to jump a canopy like this MUST be aware of the dangers involved with EVERY piece of his/her equipment, and know how to maintain the gear to bring them down safely time after time."He also pointed out that george could have copied many other canopies including the crossfire but elected to go with the German made Nitron."I would be interested to know how difficult the Nitro is to manufacture as opposed to the Crossfire, which is said to be very difficult. Also, regarding licensing issues, it's possible that it's easier to create a copy of the Nitro, as opposed to the Crossfire, legally. These are questions to which we do not have the answer. If anyone does, I would be interested in what is involved."He also pointed out if its a line trim problem then why not give out specs so folks could check their own canopy or have it checked by a rigger. That don't look good."Again, it's not a line trim problem....changing the trim is one solution to the problem of some of the canopies being built out of tolerance.I am obviously biased towards the Crossfire, but have tried to state as much fact as I can, and answer some of the questions that you have. I jump a couple of Crossfires, and have spent a good deal of time examining the issue, as I obviously have a vested interest in the happenings. I don't have any more desire to die than the next guy, so, basically, should have every reason to look long and hard at the Crossfire and its recent mishaps. I love my canopies, though, and hope that this situation gets resolved soon.Blue Skies,steve Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites weid14 0 #19 October 11, 2001 ditto - thanks for saving me a bunch of typing. let's see George got in trouble with patent infringement with the FX.... why would he want to go down that road again? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skybytch 273 #20 October 11, 2001 It's very likely that I'm waaaaaaayyyy overreacting to this, but!QuoteDan is an engineer, not a fast-food cook turned parachute salesman.Exactly what are you trying to say? Engineers are somehow better at selling gear than non-engineers? So if I'd spent 4 years earning an engineering degree instead of spending 5 years instructing and rigging before I got this job, I'd be a better gear saleperson? I don't think so. The only degree that might help me in this job is a business degree. Being a good gear salesperson requires a lot of gear related knowledge; knowledge that is acquired by being active in the sport and putting effort into learning as much as possible about the gear you sell, not by having a piece of paper from a university.Okay, I'll climb off my soapbox. I'm sure Chuck didn't mean that the way I interpreted it... after all, how could he know I once spent a couple of months working as a "sandwich artist" at Subway?? (hey, when you're a single parent sometimes you gotta do whatever it takes to put food on the table...)pull and flare,lisa Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhreeZone 20 #21 October 11, 2001 "If you do not have faith that your rigger can hit the mark, maybe he shouldn't be relining your high performance canopy."Well I take offence to that one, since its me thats doing the work on my own gear. What I was trying to get across in my first post was that it was me that spent top dollar (upwards of 1700 for a custom Crossfire) to get a high proformance canopy, jumped it just 250-300 (Vectron loses its saftey window after 350-400 jumps IMHO) times then had to send it back, spend another $200-250 just to jump it again I would quickly lose interest in that canopy. It would cost too much to jump the canopy. When if I was able to perform the work myself I could do it work less then $150, spend more time up close with my canopy and performing a very through inspection of it. But if the tolerences are different for each canopy, or if each canopy needs a custom trim to get it to fly properly there is no way that I would even think about doing the work myself. I'd rather let the factory deal with the problem and then let me have fun under it again.Be safe, be smooth, be fast..... and most importantly.... be phree Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites prost 0 #22 October 12, 2001 Lisa, I think Chuck was addressing Dan's ability to test technical aspects of a canopies design, not his ability as a salesperson. In other words he was saying Dan's qualifications for testing the crossfire come from his engineering background and not his canopy sales background Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SBS 0 #23 October 12, 2001 I'm sorry that you took offense, but consider what your original post was, and why I responded that way. The original reason that you said that there may be a problem relining your own canopy was that Icarus was going to mandate vectran on all of their canopies. That said nothing about canopies that have had the trim adjusted to compensate for the tolerance issue. That is why I said what I did. Any canopy that is "normal", meaning that it has a "general use" or "uniform" line set, should be able to be relined by a rigger....if he, who ever that may be, is not capable of attaching lines to a canopy where they are marked, I don't think there is any reason that you should be offended that I would say that they should not be relining a high performance canopy. I agree with you, though, that any of them that have been adjusted should have some sort of compensation by Icarus for the relining. I think that if that issue was brought up to them, they would be more than willing to discuss it. It would be for a very small amount of canopies, and would not mean that they would have any responsibility to reline ALL Crossfires at a reduced rate. I hope that clears up the misunderstanding.Blue Ones,Steve Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Geoff 0 #24 October 12, 2001 QuoteI haven't heard their story change from day one, only become more detailed. Change (1): The story has changed a lot since early September when Icarus were still claiming very specifically that the only Crossfire instability problem was on a single batch incorrectly built with their B-lines too long.Change (2): Mike / Aviatr was told his canopy was unaffected. It collapsed on him. He was then told it was affected, and a bunch of new serial numbers were added to the list.Quote"The bulletin is contradictory about whether European canopies are affected ..... "This isn't contradictory at all. You don't see a contradiction in canopies described as 'unaffected' actually requiring a complete reline ?Geoff Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SBS 0 #25 October 12, 2001 "Change (1): The story has changed a lot since early September when Icarus were still claiming veryspecifically that the only Crossfire instability problem was on a single batch incorrectly built with theirB-lines too long."I, personally, never heard that said, so don't know. I just reread the statement from September and didn't see anything said about the B-lines.Change (2): Mike / Aviatr was told his canopy was unaffected. It collapsed on him. He was then told itwas affected, and a bunch of new serial numbers were added to the list.I'll have to give you that one, to a point. Personally, though, I think it was better to release a statement and add to that statement as information became available, rather than wait, and possibly have an injury or death. It would be ideal for all of the information to be available from day one, and for them to not have to research it, but that's just not realistic. I have not heard them change the actual story regarding the anomalies with the canopy. As far as last I heard, they still were not sure what happened to that canopy, and why it had the issues that it did. I'll be interested to hear the latest when it becomes avaiable."You don't see a contradiction in canopies described as 'unaffected' actually requiring a complete reline ?"Two seperate issues. The affected canopies were built out of tolerance, and therefore, need to be fixed. They are not saying that the canopies built with Spectra, no matter where they were built, have the problem that the bulletin is addressing of tolerance. What they are saying, simply, is that all canopies that were made with spectra need to have vectran, and that spectra is no longer going to be an option. In other words....the European canopies were not built out of tolerance....they simply want every Crossfire to be made with Vectran line. Steve Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
cobaltdan 0 #4 October 10, 2001 food for thought.precision copies icarus canopies minus crossfire. this was long before any public issues on the crossfire.why didn't george galloway copy the crossfire too. instead he licensed a competing design from germany....icarus states only american (precision made) canopies are potentially effected....i do not believe this to be true (as i have an effected crossfire that is from europe). but, this does serve to make precision (effectively an ex icarus partner and now competitor) look quite bad.icarus states it is a line trim problem, not a design defect with the canopy.if the problem is simply line trim why has the line specification sheet not been posted. anyone with a tape measure can check line trim. for those of you not familiar with how line trim is checked it is simply measuringeach line and comparing the length to that listed on a chart.if this is a tollerence issue, why has icarus not stated the applicable specifications with required tollerences for anyone or anyrigger to measure. why would an s&ta have to certify their product to be safe, most especially without knowing the exactly what to measure. what does being familiar with someones piloting skills have anything to do with a tollerence issue of a canopy.daniel prestonatair aerodynamics Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
weid14 0 #5 October 11, 2001 Leave it alone Dan, you're a competitor, I always hated it when someone selling to me slammed the competition. tell me how good your stuff is, let me make my own decision. Don't put down the competition, makes you look bad. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aviatrr 0 #6 October 11, 2001 Quote icarus states only american (precision made) canopies are potentially effected....i do not believe this to be true (as i have an effected crossfire that is from europe). Actually, Icarus states that the problems they have seen are with the canopies made in the US AND New Zealand - but that they have not seen any problems with any canopies from Europe.. Quote icarus states it is a line trim problem, not a design defect with the canopy. All the info that I have gotten from Icarus says that it is a manufacturing tolerance(not line trim) issue, but that the line trim is also very important.. I'm still waiting to find out what the deal is with my canopy that collapsed - I need to call Simon tomorrow to find out..Mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Haggis 0 #7 October 11, 2001 I don't think that's very fair. I know Dan is a competitor (he's never tried to hide the fact) and so can't be expected to be completely impartial but by the same token, Icarus have got a vested interest here too.If someone who's gone to the trouble of tunnel testing a Crossfire has something to say about it, I want to hear it. Let's remember that we're are not talking about competing washing machine manufacturers here, we're talking about canopies that can injure and kill people if they are faulty in design and/or manufacture.If un-truths are uttered, let Icarus respond or the libel courts deal with it.I own a Crossfire and it's easily the best canopy I've ever flown (love it love it love it) but I'm still interested in hearing more than one side (Icarus's) of the story.I don't think it makes Dan look bad and if I ever tire of my Crossfire, a Cobalt will be at the top of my list of canopies to demo (as well as a smaller Crossfire) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Geoff 0 #8 October 11, 2001 The bulletin is contradictory about whether European canopies are affected.At one point the bulletin states"European Built Crossfire’s are not affected"and later"Any Crossfire’s with Spectra line require a change to Vectran. "- presumably that includes European Crossfires with Spectra lines. Why change the lines if the canopy is not affected?I had a new Crossfire on order. I maintained confidence through the fatality at the Ranch and the first bulletin. But Mike's story followed by the second bulletin was just too much. I've now lost confidence in the product and cancelled my order.Why cancel? I would probably get a fine canopy, but I'd always have this doubt in the back of my mind which would spoil my fun, plus I expect the resale value of Crossfires to go through the floor.I'll re-consider in a few months time, if Icarus can keep their story (a) the same and (b) self-consistent for a while AND we don't get any more horror stories like Mike's.Or I might get a Cobalt.Geoff Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
weid14 0 #9 October 11, 2001 because spectra shrinks to a MUCH greater extent than vectran. the shrinkage will bring the canopy out of trim - like any other canopy made in the world without regard to manufacturer. The Crossfire is much more intolerant of the out of trim condition. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
weid14 0 #10 October 11, 2001 Tunnel testing is fine, every competitor checks out the other guys product. shoot, Icarus has a wind tunnel they test designs in. Dan could present his case in a different way, he is speculating, present facts, and have dta to back it up. Wind tunnel testing is one thing, knowing what you are seeing is another. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Geoff 0 #11 October 11, 2001 Absolutely true of course. My point is that the bulletin is not clear as to whether European-built Crossfires with Spectra lines are considered safe by Icarus.Geoff Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
weid14 0 #12 October 11, 2001 To answer the question (my opinion, I have no connection with them) -- they feel they are good as long as they are in trim. They want to replace all spectra lines with vectran to help keep them in trim. I make that opinion from talking with the facility in Sebastian. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 4 #13 October 11, 2001 Quoteevery competitor checks out the other guys product. shoot, Icarus has a wind tunnel they test designs in. Dan could present his case in a different way, he is speculating, present facts, and have dta to back it up..I can promise you that Dan Preston is not "speculating" anything. He is plenty smart enough to write only what he knows and has seen. Now if you and others out there believe that he is posting here solely for the purpose of selling his product (and thusly to downtrod others), you are mistaken. Dan is an engineer, not a fast-food cook turned parachute salesman. He is fascinated by all things technical and spends an exhorbitant amount of time tinkering with things that interest him. He build his own data recording instruments and video equipment when "what he needs" does not exist. He will sit down with anyone and talk all day long about things he is working on. Dan is not parading around going "Icarus sucks"or "Precision sucks", etc. What he IS doing is pointing out some technical problems on equipment in the field, which (as we have seen) have led to catastrophic and near catastrophic loss. Now, that being said, who would you rather hear it from; an engineer (who happens to sell and design parachutes), or some random jumper who really hasn't laid his hands on the product?Now, some here might say that "Chuck is only sticking up for Dan because he is sponsored by him." That is not the case at all. First of all, I still pay for my parachutes and jump an Atair canopy by choice. Second, I have been around skydiving long enough (literally all my life) to have seen this exact same situation more than once; the Nova fiasco key among them. I find it refreshing that there are educated technicians out in the field actually doing independant testing on products. By the way, Dan is using a NASA facility for the testing he is conducting and I am quite sure that he will not hesitate to publish the results of their findings.Chuck "I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
weid14 0 #14 October 11, 2001 Chuck, I'm not debating Dan's techinical knowledge -- (he is an instrument engineer BTW) -- I am also an engineer, in fact,I desgined part of an aircraft wing for a senior project many moons ago. Dan is speculating on the split bewteen Icarus and Precision. If he wants to point out techinical problems, excellent -- please do it... it will educate others. Please also give a link to supporting data -- what were the conditions, what was the baseline, what were the vaiables held constant, what were the variables allowed to change, and what were the results of those changes-- now that an engineer would have if they were doing design and testing. All I ask is that he provide that data to back up his statements, and don't speculate on a business arrangement between companies that he doesn't know. I don't have an axe to grinds with either comnpnay, Cobalt makes an excellent canopy, I've flown a couple. all I ask is present facts and not speculate on stuff that really is not relavent to the issue. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #15 October 11, 2001 My questions are that if the tolerences for the lines are so close that Specta lines are'nt acceptible, how are riggers going to reline thier own/customers canopies? Many of the riggers that I know perfer to reline thier own canopy and save money rather then paying someone else to do what they can already do. If I had a Crossfire I'd be scared that I'd make the lines just a fraction off and have a worse issue then before the line change.Does anyone know if Icarus is going to wave the labor fees associated with these repairs since they can't be done by your rigger anymore?If vectran is used as the only line choice, how long is it going to before there is another broken stering line during flare/hook injury? I know most people don't take enough care in inspecting thier lines to know the breaking point of Vectan lines. Spectra lines are lots more clear even they are going to break. Any answers out there for these questions?Be safe, be smooth, be fast..... and most importantly.... be phree Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites cloud9 0 #16 October 11, 2001 David I didn't get from Dan's post even close to what you got. I don't think he speculated on the split between icarus and precisson. What he said was icarus said only the US made crossfires were effected (made by precission) Dan pointed out that, that made precission an ex-partner look bad. I agree it does. He also said he disagree's that in his opinion the European crossfire he has, also has a flaw. Opinion is the key word here. He also pointed out that george could have copied many other canopies including the crossfire but elected to go with the German made Nitron. Why? I would like to know the answer to that one myself.He also pointed out if its a line trim problem then why not give out specs so folks could check their own canopy or have it checked by a rigger. That don't look good.I know the S&TA at my DZ has no way of knowing what crossfires are safe or not. He can only get that from the factory, so why do they put it on him to decide what canopies are ok to fly?As far as references to indicate the technical data why hasn't icarus given any of that either? Its their canopy but they don't show any test data.I don't own either canopy in fact I jump a Triathlon, but I do like getting other folks opinions and information. I would never buy or not buy a canopy based on the opinion of one person, but I would certainly try to find more information based on a person's opinion.In any case I appriciated Dan's information, and I hope he continues to report what he has. I also hope that if Dan had a problem with one of his canopies he would be just as honest and direct in reporting that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skybytch 273 #17 October 11, 2001 Quotethat made precission an ex-partner look bad. I agree it does. imho, Icarus is showing incredible amounts of restraint in NOT making Precision look bad. Think about it - they could be proclaiming to the world that the company that built those canopies screwed them up on purpose. Instead, they seem to me to be taking the high road on that whole side of the issue. QuoteHe also pointed out that george could have copied many other canopies including the crossfire but elected to go with the German made Nitron.Perhaps there's a clause or two in the original agreement between Precision and Icarus that prevented Precision from copying the Crossfire... would certainly be something I'd insist on if I had an outside company producing canopies for me.pull and flare,lisa Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SBS 0 #18 October 11, 2001 I want to try to address some comments and questions in these posts, based on my many conversations with Icarus, and my understanding of the problems with the canopies:"I resent them transferring the responsibility of that decision onto us."I can see how it may be taken like that, but what they intended to do was to give the S&TA the ability to "unground" a canopy if they are certain that it is not one that is affected. They recognize that there are some people in this sport who would be out of work without their canopies....some of whom have thousands of jumps, have flown their canopies in all conditions, and know for a fact that theirs does not have an issue with collapsing, otherwise it would have shown up before this point. I think the position of keeping all possibly affected canopies grounded is reasonable, and what they have done is allowed you the leway to go either way on the issue. I have mixed feelings on their involvement of DZO's/S&TA's, but still think it's a valid option that they had."why didn't george galloway copy the crossfire too."Who knows....but, if it is true that they have issues manufacturing the Crossfire, why would they go through the trouble of licensing it, if they already know that the ones that they are turning out from their facility have problems? I'm not making a statement either way as far as who is at fault, but it's just food for thought. "icarus states it is a line trim problem, not a design defect with the canopy. if the problem is simply line trim why has the line specification sheet not been posted. anyone with a tape measure can check line trim. for those of you not familiar with how line trim is checked it is simply measuring each line and comparing the length to that listed on a chart."As far as my discussions with them and what I got from the bulletins, they have not made that statement. What they have said is that it is a tolerance issue that can, in some cases, be solved by adjusting the trim on a canopy. Some will be solved by changing the trim, and some will have to be rebuilt. Either way, it is not an actual issue of line trim. Due to this fact, it is not a simple issue of putting a correct line set on a canopy, but custom building a line set for each specific canopy."why would an s&ta have to certify their product to be safe, most especially without knowing the exactly what to measure."It's not an issue of measuring, it's an issue of knowing a jumper, how experienced he/she is as a canopy pilot, and knowing that he/she has flown the canopy through numerous conditions for hundreds of jumps without a problem. Example: Joe jumper with 500 jumps bought a Crossfire a couple of months ago and has put 40 jumps on it, and it appears on the list. He really does not have a case for the "ungrounding" of his canopy. Example 2: A videographer from the DZ with 1000, 2000, 3000 jumps, etc. with a couple hundred jumps on the canopy, flown using toggle input, front risers, in heat and in cold, in wind and in none, says that there are no issues with his/her canopy. That is a situation in which the DZO may want to consider allowing the jumper to use the canopy at his/her own risk."The bulletin is contradictory about whether European canopies are affected. At one point the bulletin states "European Built Crossfire’s are not affected" and later "Any Crossfire’s with Spectra line require a change to Vectran." "This isn't contradictory at all. These are two separate issues. Whether a canopy was manufactured in Europe or in the USA, spectra line is going to shrink, whereas vectran will not. What they are saying is that with these problems that they are experiencing, they want as little working against the proper function of the canopy as possible. What they want to get out on the market are proper representations of what the Crossfire can be, and one made with Spectra is not the best canopy possible."if Icarus can keep their story (a) the same" I haven't heard their story change from day one, only become more detailed. "Dan is using a NASA facility for the testing he is conducting and I am quite sure that he will not hesitate to publish the results of their findings."I would personally, love to see the technical information that he finds, whether that be consistant or inconsistant with what Icarus says, as long as the statement is comprised of facts, and not interpretation of what someone has said, or interpretation of said facts. THAT seems to me to be what we read on this thread. I am not slamming Dan, and appreciate his involvement in discussions as an intelligent person and engineer, but as he is a competitor in the industry, I think it's important that there always be an incredible amount of effort made towards presenting a position with "bias-less" fact. (did I just make up a word?) :-)"My questions are that if the tolerences for the lines are so close that Specta lines are'nt acceptible, how are riggers going to reline thier own/customers canopies?" I can't make any technical statement about exactly how much these canopies can and can't be out of trim, but to put it in perspective, it is possible for spectra steering lines to shrink a matter of inches in less than a hundred jumps. We are not talking about a centimeter being a serious issue. Also, things to consider...1) If you do not have faith that your rigger can hit the mark, maybe he shouldn't be relining your high performance canopy.2) There are manufacturers that do not sell line sets for canopies...if Icarus were to mandate that the canopies be returned to them for reline, they would not be the first manufacturer to do so."If vectran is used as the only line choice, how long is it going to before there is another broken stering line during flare/hook injury? I know most people don't take enough care in inspecting thier lines to know the breaking point of Vectan lines."This is scary. It is a scary issue that you have brought up, as well as a scary position that you maintain. That is, that the manufacturer would be responsible for an accident, because someone did not properly maintain their gear and perform adequate gear checks on a regular basis. High performance means high maintenance, and that is something that someone jumping a high performance canopy MUST accept. This is the same with the Extremes and the Velocities, and any other canopy with vectran line. Someone who is going to jump a canopy like this MUST be aware of the dangers involved with EVERY piece of his/her equipment, and know how to maintain the gear to bring them down safely time after time."He also pointed out that george could have copied many other canopies including the crossfire but elected to go with the German made Nitron."I would be interested to know how difficult the Nitro is to manufacture as opposed to the Crossfire, which is said to be very difficult. Also, regarding licensing issues, it's possible that it's easier to create a copy of the Nitro, as opposed to the Crossfire, legally. These are questions to which we do not have the answer. If anyone does, I would be interested in what is involved."He also pointed out if its a line trim problem then why not give out specs so folks could check their own canopy or have it checked by a rigger. That don't look good."Again, it's not a line trim problem....changing the trim is one solution to the problem of some of the canopies being built out of tolerance.I am obviously biased towards the Crossfire, but have tried to state as much fact as I can, and answer some of the questions that you have. I jump a couple of Crossfires, and have spent a good deal of time examining the issue, as I obviously have a vested interest in the happenings. I don't have any more desire to die than the next guy, so, basically, should have every reason to look long and hard at the Crossfire and its recent mishaps. I love my canopies, though, and hope that this situation gets resolved soon.Blue Skies,steve Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites weid14 0 #19 October 11, 2001 ditto - thanks for saving me a bunch of typing. let's see George got in trouble with patent infringement with the FX.... why would he want to go down that road again? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skybytch 273 #20 October 11, 2001 It's very likely that I'm waaaaaaayyyy overreacting to this, but!QuoteDan is an engineer, not a fast-food cook turned parachute salesman.Exactly what are you trying to say? Engineers are somehow better at selling gear than non-engineers? So if I'd spent 4 years earning an engineering degree instead of spending 5 years instructing and rigging before I got this job, I'd be a better gear saleperson? I don't think so. The only degree that might help me in this job is a business degree. Being a good gear salesperson requires a lot of gear related knowledge; knowledge that is acquired by being active in the sport and putting effort into learning as much as possible about the gear you sell, not by having a piece of paper from a university.Okay, I'll climb off my soapbox. I'm sure Chuck didn't mean that the way I interpreted it... after all, how could he know I once spent a couple of months working as a "sandwich artist" at Subway?? (hey, when you're a single parent sometimes you gotta do whatever it takes to put food on the table...)pull and flare,lisa Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhreeZone 20 #21 October 11, 2001 "If you do not have faith that your rigger can hit the mark, maybe he shouldn't be relining your high performance canopy."Well I take offence to that one, since its me thats doing the work on my own gear. What I was trying to get across in my first post was that it was me that spent top dollar (upwards of 1700 for a custom Crossfire) to get a high proformance canopy, jumped it just 250-300 (Vectron loses its saftey window after 350-400 jumps IMHO) times then had to send it back, spend another $200-250 just to jump it again I would quickly lose interest in that canopy. It would cost too much to jump the canopy. When if I was able to perform the work myself I could do it work less then $150, spend more time up close with my canopy and performing a very through inspection of it. But if the tolerences are different for each canopy, or if each canopy needs a custom trim to get it to fly properly there is no way that I would even think about doing the work myself. I'd rather let the factory deal with the problem and then let me have fun under it again.Be safe, be smooth, be fast..... and most importantly.... be phree Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites prost 0 #22 October 12, 2001 Lisa, I think Chuck was addressing Dan's ability to test technical aspects of a canopies design, not his ability as a salesperson. In other words he was saying Dan's qualifications for testing the crossfire come from his engineering background and not his canopy sales background Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SBS 0 #23 October 12, 2001 I'm sorry that you took offense, but consider what your original post was, and why I responded that way. The original reason that you said that there may be a problem relining your own canopy was that Icarus was going to mandate vectran on all of their canopies. That said nothing about canopies that have had the trim adjusted to compensate for the tolerance issue. That is why I said what I did. Any canopy that is "normal", meaning that it has a "general use" or "uniform" line set, should be able to be relined by a rigger....if he, who ever that may be, is not capable of attaching lines to a canopy where they are marked, I don't think there is any reason that you should be offended that I would say that they should not be relining a high performance canopy. I agree with you, though, that any of them that have been adjusted should have some sort of compensation by Icarus for the relining. I think that if that issue was brought up to them, they would be more than willing to discuss it. It would be for a very small amount of canopies, and would not mean that they would have any responsibility to reline ALL Crossfires at a reduced rate. I hope that clears up the misunderstanding.Blue Ones,Steve Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Geoff 0 #24 October 12, 2001 QuoteI haven't heard their story change from day one, only become more detailed. Change (1): The story has changed a lot since early September when Icarus were still claiming very specifically that the only Crossfire instability problem was on a single batch incorrectly built with their B-lines too long.Change (2): Mike / Aviatr was told his canopy was unaffected. It collapsed on him. He was then told it was affected, and a bunch of new serial numbers were added to the list.Quote"The bulletin is contradictory about whether European canopies are affected ..... "This isn't contradictory at all. You don't see a contradiction in canopies described as 'unaffected' actually requiring a complete reline ?Geoff Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SBS 0 #25 October 12, 2001 "Change (1): The story has changed a lot since early September when Icarus were still claiming veryspecifically that the only Crossfire instability problem was on a single batch incorrectly built with theirB-lines too long."I, personally, never heard that said, so don't know. I just reread the statement from September and didn't see anything said about the B-lines.Change (2): Mike / Aviatr was told his canopy was unaffected. It collapsed on him. He was then told itwas affected, and a bunch of new serial numbers were added to the list.I'll have to give you that one, to a point. Personally, though, I think it was better to release a statement and add to that statement as information became available, rather than wait, and possibly have an injury or death. It would be ideal for all of the information to be available from day one, and for them to not have to research it, but that's just not realistic. I have not heard them change the actual story regarding the anomalies with the canopy. As far as last I heard, they still were not sure what happened to that canopy, and why it had the issues that it did. I'll be interested to hear the latest when it becomes avaiable."You don't see a contradiction in canopies described as 'unaffected' actually requiring a complete reline ?"Two seperate issues. The affected canopies were built out of tolerance, and therefore, need to be fixed. They are not saying that the canopies built with Spectra, no matter where they were built, have the problem that the bulletin is addressing of tolerance. What they are saying, simply, is that all canopies that were made with spectra need to have vectran, and that spectra is no longer going to be an option. In other words....the European canopies were not built out of tolerance....they simply want every Crossfire to be made with Vectran line. Steve Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
cloud9 0 #16 October 11, 2001 David I didn't get from Dan's post even close to what you got. I don't think he speculated on the split between icarus and precisson. What he said was icarus said only the US made crossfires were effected (made by precission) Dan pointed out that, that made precission an ex-partner look bad. I agree it does. He also said he disagree's that in his opinion the European crossfire he has, also has a flaw. Opinion is the key word here. He also pointed out that george could have copied many other canopies including the crossfire but elected to go with the German made Nitron. Why? I would like to know the answer to that one myself.He also pointed out if its a line trim problem then why not give out specs so folks could check their own canopy or have it checked by a rigger. That don't look good.I know the S&TA at my DZ has no way of knowing what crossfires are safe or not. He can only get that from the factory, so why do they put it on him to decide what canopies are ok to fly?As far as references to indicate the technical data why hasn't icarus given any of that either? Its their canopy but they don't show any test data.I don't own either canopy in fact I jump a Triathlon, but I do like getting other folks opinions and information. I would never buy or not buy a canopy based on the opinion of one person, but I would certainly try to find more information based on a person's opinion.In any case I appriciated Dan's information, and I hope he continues to report what he has. I also hope that if Dan had a problem with one of his canopies he would be just as honest and direct in reporting that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #17 October 11, 2001 Quotethat made precission an ex-partner look bad. I agree it does. imho, Icarus is showing incredible amounts of restraint in NOT making Precision look bad. Think about it - they could be proclaiming to the world that the company that built those canopies screwed them up on purpose. Instead, they seem to me to be taking the high road on that whole side of the issue. QuoteHe also pointed out that george could have copied many other canopies including the crossfire but elected to go with the German made Nitron.Perhaps there's a clause or two in the original agreement between Precision and Icarus that prevented Precision from copying the Crossfire... would certainly be something I'd insist on if I had an outside company producing canopies for me.pull and flare,lisa Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SBS 0 #18 October 11, 2001 I want to try to address some comments and questions in these posts, based on my many conversations with Icarus, and my understanding of the problems with the canopies:"I resent them transferring the responsibility of that decision onto us."I can see how it may be taken like that, but what they intended to do was to give the S&TA the ability to "unground" a canopy if they are certain that it is not one that is affected. They recognize that there are some people in this sport who would be out of work without their canopies....some of whom have thousands of jumps, have flown their canopies in all conditions, and know for a fact that theirs does not have an issue with collapsing, otherwise it would have shown up before this point. I think the position of keeping all possibly affected canopies grounded is reasonable, and what they have done is allowed you the leway to go either way on the issue. I have mixed feelings on their involvement of DZO's/S&TA's, but still think it's a valid option that they had."why didn't george galloway copy the crossfire too."Who knows....but, if it is true that they have issues manufacturing the Crossfire, why would they go through the trouble of licensing it, if they already know that the ones that they are turning out from their facility have problems? I'm not making a statement either way as far as who is at fault, but it's just food for thought. "icarus states it is a line trim problem, not a design defect with the canopy. if the problem is simply line trim why has the line specification sheet not been posted. anyone with a tape measure can check line trim. for those of you not familiar with how line trim is checked it is simply measuring each line and comparing the length to that listed on a chart."As far as my discussions with them and what I got from the bulletins, they have not made that statement. What they have said is that it is a tolerance issue that can, in some cases, be solved by adjusting the trim on a canopy. Some will be solved by changing the trim, and some will have to be rebuilt. Either way, it is not an actual issue of line trim. Due to this fact, it is not a simple issue of putting a correct line set on a canopy, but custom building a line set for each specific canopy."why would an s&ta have to certify their product to be safe, most especially without knowing the exactly what to measure."It's not an issue of measuring, it's an issue of knowing a jumper, how experienced he/she is as a canopy pilot, and knowing that he/she has flown the canopy through numerous conditions for hundreds of jumps without a problem. Example: Joe jumper with 500 jumps bought a Crossfire a couple of months ago and has put 40 jumps on it, and it appears on the list. He really does not have a case for the "ungrounding" of his canopy. Example 2: A videographer from the DZ with 1000, 2000, 3000 jumps, etc. with a couple hundred jumps on the canopy, flown using toggle input, front risers, in heat and in cold, in wind and in none, says that there are no issues with his/her canopy. That is a situation in which the DZO may want to consider allowing the jumper to use the canopy at his/her own risk."The bulletin is contradictory about whether European canopies are affected. At one point the bulletin states "European Built Crossfire’s are not affected" and later "Any Crossfire’s with Spectra line require a change to Vectran." "This isn't contradictory at all. These are two separate issues. Whether a canopy was manufactured in Europe or in the USA, spectra line is going to shrink, whereas vectran will not. What they are saying is that with these problems that they are experiencing, they want as little working against the proper function of the canopy as possible. What they want to get out on the market are proper representations of what the Crossfire can be, and one made with Spectra is not the best canopy possible."if Icarus can keep their story (a) the same" I haven't heard their story change from day one, only become more detailed. "Dan is using a NASA facility for the testing he is conducting and I am quite sure that he will not hesitate to publish the results of their findings."I would personally, love to see the technical information that he finds, whether that be consistant or inconsistant with what Icarus says, as long as the statement is comprised of facts, and not interpretation of what someone has said, or interpretation of said facts. THAT seems to me to be what we read on this thread. I am not slamming Dan, and appreciate his involvement in discussions as an intelligent person and engineer, but as he is a competitor in the industry, I think it's important that there always be an incredible amount of effort made towards presenting a position with "bias-less" fact. (did I just make up a word?) :-)"My questions are that if the tolerences for the lines are so close that Specta lines are'nt acceptible, how are riggers going to reline thier own/customers canopies?" I can't make any technical statement about exactly how much these canopies can and can't be out of trim, but to put it in perspective, it is possible for spectra steering lines to shrink a matter of inches in less than a hundred jumps. We are not talking about a centimeter being a serious issue. Also, things to consider...1) If you do not have faith that your rigger can hit the mark, maybe he shouldn't be relining your high performance canopy.2) There are manufacturers that do not sell line sets for canopies...if Icarus were to mandate that the canopies be returned to them for reline, they would not be the first manufacturer to do so."If vectran is used as the only line choice, how long is it going to before there is another broken stering line during flare/hook injury? I know most people don't take enough care in inspecting thier lines to know the breaking point of Vectan lines."This is scary. It is a scary issue that you have brought up, as well as a scary position that you maintain. That is, that the manufacturer would be responsible for an accident, because someone did not properly maintain their gear and perform adequate gear checks on a regular basis. High performance means high maintenance, and that is something that someone jumping a high performance canopy MUST accept. This is the same with the Extremes and the Velocities, and any other canopy with vectran line. Someone who is going to jump a canopy like this MUST be aware of the dangers involved with EVERY piece of his/her equipment, and know how to maintain the gear to bring them down safely time after time."He also pointed out that george could have copied many other canopies including the crossfire but elected to go with the German made Nitron."I would be interested to know how difficult the Nitro is to manufacture as opposed to the Crossfire, which is said to be very difficult. Also, regarding licensing issues, it's possible that it's easier to create a copy of the Nitro, as opposed to the Crossfire, legally. These are questions to which we do not have the answer. If anyone does, I would be interested in what is involved."He also pointed out if its a line trim problem then why not give out specs so folks could check their own canopy or have it checked by a rigger. That don't look good."Again, it's not a line trim problem....changing the trim is one solution to the problem of some of the canopies being built out of tolerance.I am obviously biased towards the Crossfire, but have tried to state as much fact as I can, and answer some of the questions that you have. I jump a couple of Crossfires, and have spent a good deal of time examining the issue, as I obviously have a vested interest in the happenings. I don't have any more desire to die than the next guy, so, basically, should have every reason to look long and hard at the Crossfire and its recent mishaps. I love my canopies, though, and hope that this situation gets resolved soon.Blue Skies,steve Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
weid14 0 #19 October 11, 2001 ditto - thanks for saving me a bunch of typing. let's see George got in trouble with patent infringement with the FX.... why would he want to go down that road again? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #20 October 11, 2001 It's very likely that I'm waaaaaaayyyy overreacting to this, but!QuoteDan is an engineer, not a fast-food cook turned parachute salesman.Exactly what are you trying to say? Engineers are somehow better at selling gear than non-engineers? So if I'd spent 4 years earning an engineering degree instead of spending 5 years instructing and rigging before I got this job, I'd be a better gear saleperson? I don't think so. The only degree that might help me in this job is a business degree. Being a good gear salesperson requires a lot of gear related knowledge; knowledge that is acquired by being active in the sport and putting effort into learning as much as possible about the gear you sell, not by having a piece of paper from a university.Okay, I'll climb off my soapbox. I'm sure Chuck didn't mean that the way I interpreted it... after all, how could he know I once spent a couple of months working as a "sandwich artist" at Subway?? (hey, when you're a single parent sometimes you gotta do whatever it takes to put food on the table...)pull and flare,lisa Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #21 October 11, 2001 "If you do not have faith that your rigger can hit the mark, maybe he shouldn't be relining your high performance canopy."Well I take offence to that one, since its me thats doing the work on my own gear. What I was trying to get across in my first post was that it was me that spent top dollar (upwards of 1700 for a custom Crossfire) to get a high proformance canopy, jumped it just 250-300 (Vectron loses its saftey window after 350-400 jumps IMHO) times then had to send it back, spend another $200-250 just to jump it again I would quickly lose interest in that canopy. It would cost too much to jump the canopy. When if I was able to perform the work myself I could do it work less then $150, spend more time up close with my canopy and performing a very through inspection of it. But if the tolerences are different for each canopy, or if each canopy needs a custom trim to get it to fly properly there is no way that I would even think about doing the work myself. I'd rather let the factory deal with the problem and then let me have fun under it again.Be safe, be smooth, be fast..... and most importantly.... be phree Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites prost 0 #22 October 12, 2001 Lisa, I think Chuck was addressing Dan's ability to test technical aspects of a canopies design, not his ability as a salesperson. In other words he was saying Dan's qualifications for testing the crossfire come from his engineering background and not his canopy sales background Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SBS 0 #23 October 12, 2001 I'm sorry that you took offense, but consider what your original post was, and why I responded that way. The original reason that you said that there may be a problem relining your own canopy was that Icarus was going to mandate vectran on all of their canopies. That said nothing about canopies that have had the trim adjusted to compensate for the tolerance issue. That is why I said what I did. Any canopy that is "normal", meaning that it has a "general use" or "uniform" line set, should be able to be relined by a rigger....if he, who ever that may be, is not capable of attaching lines to a canopy where they are marked, I don't think there is any reason that you should be offended that I would say that they should not be relining a high performance canopy. I agree with you, though, that any of them that have been adjusted should have some sort of compensation by Icarus for the relining. I think that if that issue was brought up to them, they would be more than willing to discuss it. It would be for a very small amount of canopies, and would not mean that they would have any responsibility to reline ALL Crossfires at a reduced rate. I hope that clears up the misunderstanding.Blue Ones,Steve Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Geoff 0 #24 October 12, 2001 QuoteI haven't heard their story change from day one, only become more detailed. Change (1): The story has changed a lot since early September when Icarus were still claiming very specifically that the only Crossfire instability problem was on a single batch incorrectly built with their B-lines too long.Change (2): Mike / Aviatr was told his canopy was unaffected. It collapsed on him. He was then told it was affected, and a bunch of new serial numbers were added to the list.Quote"The bulletin is contradictory about whether European canopies are affected ..... "This isn't contradictory at all. You don't see a contradiction in canopies described as 'unaffected' actually requiring a complete reline ?Geoff Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SBS 0 #25 October 12, 2001 "Change (1): The story has changed a lot since early September when Icarus were still claiming veryspecifically that the only Crossfire instability problem was on a single batch incorrectly built with theirB-lines too long."I, personally, never heard that said, so don't know. I just reread the statement from September and didn't see anything said about the B-lines.Change (2): Mike / Aviatr was told his canopy was unaffected. It collapsed on him. He was then told itwas affected, and a bunch of new serial numbers were added to the list.I'll have to give you that one, to a point. Personally, though, I think it was better to release a statement and add to that statement as information became available, rather than wait, and possibly have an injury or death. It would be ideal for all of the information to be available from day one, and for them to not have to research it, but that's just not realistic. I have not heard them change the actual story regarding the anomalies with the canopy. As far as last I heard, they still were not sure what happened to that canopy, and why it had the issues that it did. I'll be interested to hear the latest when it becomes avaiable."You don't see a contradiction in canopies described as 'unaffected' actually requiring a complete reline ?"Two seperate issues. The affected canopies were built out of tolerance, and therefore, need to be fixed. They are not saying that the canopies built with Spectra, no matter where they were built, have the problem that the bulletin is addressing of tolerance. What they are saying, simply, is that all canopies that were made with spectra need to have vectran, and that spectra is no longer going to be an option. In other words....the European canopies were not built out of tolerance....they simply want every Crossfire to be made with Vectran line. Steve Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
prost 0 #22 October 12, 2001 Lisa, I think Chuck was addressing Dan's ability to test technical aspects of a canopies design, not his ability as a salesperson. In other words he was saying Dan's qualifications for testing the crossfire come from his engineering background and not his canopy sales background Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SBS 0 #23 October 12, 2001 I'm sorry that you took offense, but consider what your original post was, and why I responded that way. The original reason that you said that there may be a problem relining your own canopy was that Icarus was going to mandate vectran on all of their canopies. That said nothing about canopies that have had the trim adjusted to compensate for the tolerance issue. That is why I said what I did. Any canopy that is "normal", meaning that it has a "general use" or "uniform" line set, should be able to be relined by a rigger....if he, who ever that may be, is not capable of attaching lines to a canopy where they are marked, I don't think there is any reason that you should be offended that I would say that they should not be relining a high performance canopy. I agree with you, though, that any of them that have been adjusted should have some sort of compensation by Icarus for the relining. I think that if that issue was brought up to them, they would be more than willing to discuss it. It would be for a very small amount of canopies, and would not mean that they would have any responsibility to reline ALL Crossfires at a reduced rate. I hope that clears up the misunderstanding.Blue Ones,Steve Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Geoff 0 #24 October 12, 2001 QuoteI haven't heard their story change from day one, only become more detailed. Change (1): The story has changed a lot since early September when Icarus were still claiming very specifically that the only Crossfire instability problem was on a single batch incorrectly built with their B-lines too long.Change (2): Mike / Aviatr was told his canopy was unaffected. It collapsed on him. He was then told it was affected, and a bunch of new serial numbers were added to the list.Quote"The bulletin is contradictory about whether European canopies are affected ..... "This isn't contradictory at all. You don't see a contradiction in canopies described as 'unaffected' actually requiring a complete reline ?Geoff Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SBS 0 #25 October 12, 2001 "Change (1): The story has changed a lot since early September when Icarus were still claiming veryspecifically that the only Crossfire instability problem was on a single batch incorrectly built with theirB-lines too long."I, personally, never heard that said, so don't know. I just reread the statement from September and didn't see anything said about the B-lines.Change (2): Mike / Aviatr was told his canopy was unaffected. It collapsed on him. He was then told itwas affected, and a bunch of new serial numbers were added to the list.I'll have to give you that one, to a point. Personally, though, I think it was better to release a statement and add to that statement as information became available, rather than wait, and possibly have an injury or death. It would be ideal for all of the information to be available from day one, and for them to not have to research it, but that's just not realistic. I have not heard them change the actual story regarding the anomalies with the canopy. As far as last I heard, they still were not sure what happened to that canopy, and why it had the issues that it did. I'll be interested to hear the latest when it becomes avaiable."You don't see a contradiction in canopies described as 'unaffected' actually requiring a complete reline ?"Two seperate issues. The affected canopies were built out of tolerance, and therefore, need to be fixed. They are not saying that the canopies built with Spectra, no matter where they were built, have the problem that the bulletin is addressing of tolerance. What they are saying, simply, is that all canopies that were made with spectra need to have vectran, and that spectra is no longer going to be an option. In other words....the European canopies were not built out of tolerance....they simply want every Crossfire to be made with Vectran line. Steve Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
