Video: Pilot Chute in Tow on your Reserve?

[Westerly 61]

Curious what everyone makes of this video. It's not exactly clear what happened other than the pilot chute looks like it did not have enough drag to extract the reserve freebag. Why is unclear.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaYQ6iP8zlg

[piisfish 140]

This particular case has already been discussed.
Some people attribute it to reserve tray design, to reserve PC design, to body position, or a mix of the 3

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[LeeroyJenkins 3]

piisfish

This particular case has already been discussed.
Some people attribute it to reserve tray design, to reserve PC design, to body position, or a mix of the 3

On top of that the PC has been redesigned since this happen.

[skytribe 17]

LeeroyJenkins

***This particular case has already been discussed.
Some people attribute it to reserve tray design, to reserve PC design, to body position, or a mix of the 3

On top of that the PC has been redesigned since this happen.

But no safety bulletin has been issued - so many of the rigs in the field may potentially be effected.

[Westerly 61]

LeeroyJenkins

***This particular case has already been discussed.
Some people attribute it to reserve tray design, to reserve PC design, to body position, or a mix of the 3

On top of that the PC has been redesigned since this happen.

So what was the problem?

[skydiverek 63]

Wings container again, towing Reserve PC for approx 1000 feet (300 meters)...:

VIDEO:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyjpgURZVuA

"The container is a Wings W-30 if I remember correctly. The reserve is a PD-R 253. It is the original reserve that came with the container.

2nd Chop ( please pardon my 5:00 A.M. ramblings. I've been sitting and thinking and writing this since somewhere around 3:00 A.M. this morning )

Let me preface this by saying that I'm not interested in pointing fingers in any direction or saying that the decisions I made were the right decisions.
I am simply sharing an experience for anyone that chooses to read it.

Had a great day of jumping with friends to be topped off with a sunset load doing a high pull.

Exited the plane around 14k, stable with about a 3 second delay and opened into a line over with a hard left turn.

Having recently had a cutaway in which I couldn't find my main and free bag for 3 weeks, I didn't want to chop it too high if I could safely ride it to a lower altitude and minimize the drift of the main and free bag.

I released the right brake to see if I could counter the left turn. By using right toggle input only, I was able to minimize the left turn and somewhat maintain the position I wanted above the DZ so that when I chopped it, the wind would carry the main and free bag toward the DZ. Too much right toggle and the canopy wanted to stall, so I just kept it in a slow left turn.

Since I had altitude in which to cutaway from it if it got too much out of control, I decided to ride it down to 2500 and then cut it away.

As I got to 2500 I looked down and there was another canopy passing below me. I wasn't going to cutaway above someone else, putting them in danger, so I decided to ride it for a few more seconds before chopping it.

I know it all happened quickly, but it seemed like an eternity passed as I looked at the cutaway and reserve handles in my hands and felt nothing happening.
I knew the cutaway cable was out because I was falling again, and I could see that the reserve handle was out but I wasn't getting that warm fuzzy feeling of a canopy opening and slowing me down.

As I looked at both handles a felt nothing good happening, two thoughts passed through my mind in quick succession. One questioning whether the new pillow reserve handle that had just been installed was bad and had broken and the other thought being "well, I'm f#€ked"

I looked over my left shoulder and could see the reserve pilot chute and that beautiful, wide reserve bridle streaming out about 12-15 feet behind me and thought that it must be hung up on me somewhere, so I changed my body position to try to clear it or get it in better air. As I moved my body and looked back toward the ground, I felt everything start opening.

My AAD fired, so I don't know if my different body position is what caused the reserve to go ahead and open or if the AAD firing is what ultimately released it.
By the time I got open and saddled out I would estimate I was around 600 feet.
I made an uneventful landing and walked with slightly shaky legs to the truck waiting to pick us up.

20/20 hindsight being a great teacher, I am compelled in my mind to look at what I would do differently in a similar situation.

I would still decide to ride it to a lower altitude if I felt I could safely do so, but I would cut it away at 3500 feet instead of 2500 feet.

I might try unstowing the both brakes to let the left side of the canopy try to fly. THAT might have been the better option. I will be discussing this with my S&TA and my instructors to try to be better prepared should I find myself in a similar predicament.
Regardless of the altitude, I would still delay the cutaway if I could see that I would be putting someone else at risk.

My free bag and canopy both landed on the DZ and were recovered quickly.
I made a less than pretty landing, but one I was able to walk away from.
I got to go home with my wife with nothing more than a good scare and a situation to sit back and spend some valuable time reflecting on.

When it's all said and done, there is a risk to skydiving. We all signed that waiver acknowledging that we understand that risk and choose to partake in this activity.
I will continue jumping and enjoying the camaraderie of the wonderful people that I get to hang out with."

[LeeroyJenkins 3]

Does wings use larger PC size for the larger reserves?

[Westerly 61]

So the moral of the story is dont buy a Wings container?

[skyderrill66 15]

Westerly

So the moral of the story is don,t buy a Wings container?

unless you have a death wish or your a total moron.

[Deyan 36]

LeeroyJenkins

Does wings use larger PC size for the larger reserves?

One size fits all!

"My belief is that once the doctor whacks you on the butt, all guarantees are off" Jerry Baumchen

[mark 107]

Deyan

***Does wings use larger PC size for the larger reserves?

One size fits all!

That's also true for: UPT, Sunpath, RI, Mirage, etc.

--Mark

[gowlerk 2,249]

skyderrill66

***So the moral of the story is don,t buy a Wings container?

unless you have a death wish or your a total moron.


Wings website quote:

Quote

Our reserve pilot chute maximizes its grab power with its 80% fabric design. No matter what direction the relative wind comes from, our reserve pilot chute gets maximum drag from any angle.

I pack them often and would jump one any day. I am not a moron. You should not buy gear you do not feel confident in.

[mark 107]

gowlerk

I pack them often and would jump one any day. I am not a moron. You should not buy gear you do not feel confident in.

^^^ This.

Also, when you cutaway from a big straight-flying main parachute, your forward speed is around 20mph and your vertical speed is around 10mph. The reserve pilot chute presents its side to the relative wind. No pilot chute has a lot of drag in that configuration, but pilot chutes with more fabric do a little better than those that are 50-50 fabric-mesh.

--Mark

[Deyan 36]

mark

******Does wings use larger PC size for the larger reserves?

One size fits all!

That's also true for: UPT, Sunpath, RI, Mirage, etc.

--Mark

I'm fully aware of this. Except for Racers. If we want to start nitpicking

"My belief is that once the doctor whacks you on the butt, all guarantees are off" Jerry Baumchen

[LeeroyJenkins 3]

mark

***I pack them often and would jump one any day. I am not a moron. You should not buy gear you do not feel confident in.

^^^ This.

Also, when you cutaway from a big straight-flying main parachute, your forward speed is around 20mph and your vertical speed is around 10mph. The reserve pilot chute presents its side to the relative wind. No pilot chute has a lot of drag in that configuration, but pilot chutes with more fabric do a little better than those that are 50-50 fabric-mesh.

--Mark

I now jump a Wings and used to jump a javelin. I feel like the difference in reserve tray is vastly overestimated. From my examination the only real difference is the bottom corners have about 1" more of bar tack. Everything else is the same.

The best argument I have ever seen for a MARD is low speed reserve deployments. the PC needs time to build up enough force to extract the free bag.

[skyderrill66 15]

gowlerk

******So the moral of the story is don,t buy a Wings container?

unless you have a death wish or your a total moron.


Wings website quote:

Quote

Our reserve pilot chute maximizes its grab power with its 80% fabric design. No matter what direction the relative wind comes from, our reserve pilot chute gets maximum drag from any angle.

I pack them often and would jump one any day. I am not a moron. You should not buy gear you do not feel confident in.sorry and you are right i would not jump one as i have zero confidence in a wings.

[LeeroyJenkins 3]

Which part is it exactly that you don’t have confidence in? I’m always curious when people say things like this.

[Westerly 61]

No pilot chute has a lot of drag in that configuration, but pilot chutes with more fabric do a little better than those that are 50-50 fabric-mesh.


Sure, but there is always a compromise and I suspect that comes in the form of less performance when the pilot chute is orientated correctly. If the hole is smaller, then I would suspect it might take slightly longer to inflate?

In any case, I am curious how much additional fabric on the side matters on a side deployment. If the PC is not inflated, as it probably would not be if facing perpendicular to the relative wind, then in essence what you have is the equivalent of an uncocked pilot chute. Uncocked pilot chutes dont seem to be effective in doing much of anything. In reviewing film of my openings, I've noticed even 30" PCs wont even lift the bag out of the container if uncocked even at terminal velocity. Looking frame by frame, what I notice when I throw my PC is at first it does not inflate, it pulls the pin out, and only when the bridle becomes tight and stays tight does the PC start to inflate. For the couple of frames where the bridle is tight but the PC is not yet inflated, the PC does absolutely nothing to pull the bag out of the container. It generates enough force to pull the pin and that's it. So I would question how effective an uninflated reserve PC is regardless of how much fabric it has on it. Hell, the reserve PC in the video is inflated and it still doesent work correctly!

[Deimian 43]

Westerly

Hell, the reserve PC in the video is inflated and it still doesent work correctly!

That's not true. The reserve PC is doing what is supposed to do. It is fully inflated. Its pull force is determined mainly by its size. You are ignoring the other variables in the equation. Falling on the back (so the bridle is not pulling on the bag directly as the first point of contact is the jumpers body), and a tight reserve tray with boxed corners. I doubt any other reserve PC of that size would pull the reserve out in that particular situation.

[skyderrill66 15]

LeeroyJenkins

Which part is it exactly that you don’t have confidence in? I’m always curious when people say things like this.

The pilot chute mainly. I know Henry(sunrise rigging) builds a good solid system. I just have zero confidence in the pilot chute otherwise a great system.

[LeeroyJenkins 3]

skyderrill66

***Which part is it exactly that you don’t have confidence in? I’m always curious when people say things like this.

The pilot chute mainly. I know Henry(sunrise rigging) builds a good solid system. I just have zero confidence in the pilot chute otherwise a great system.

Thanks for the reply. Most people I've asked say the "boxed in corners" nice to see a change. The incident with the line over happen almost 5 years ago in 2013 and the original video was from 2012. Wings has since redone their PC design and have even updated it again I believe in 2017.

[Westerly 61]

Deimian

***Hell, the reserve PC in the video is inflated and it still doesent work correctly!

That's not true. The reserve PC is doing what is supposed to do. It is fully inflated. Its pull force is determined mainly by its size. You are ignoring the other variables in the equation. Falling on the back (so the bridle is not pulling on the bag directly as the first point of contact is the jumpers body), and a tight reserve tray with boxed corners. I doubt any other reserve PC of that size would pull the reserve out in that particular situation.

Reserve systems are intended to work when deployed in any orientation. A reserve that only works when you're in a perfect arch is not an effective system. There are tons of videos of people having AAD fires and such while on their back and the reserve deploys just fine. Regarding pack tray size, overstuffing the reserve tray, while not ideal, is quite common. I have seen countless jumpers who overstuff their rig so they can go with a smaller container. Their reserves still work when they deploy them.

[LeeroyJenkins 3]

Westerly

******Hell, the reserve PC in the video is inflated and it still doesent work correctly!

That's not true. The reserve PC is doing what is supposed to do. It is fully inflated. Its pull force is determined mainly by its size. You are ignoring the other variables in the equation. Falling on the back (so the bridle is not pulling on the bag directly as the first point of contact is the jumpers body), and a tight reserve tray with boxed corners. I doubt any other reserve PC of that size would pull the reserve out in that particular situation.

Reserve systems are intended to work when deployed in any orientation. A reserve that only works when you're in a perfect arch is not an effective system. There are tons of videos of people having AAD fires and such while on their back and the reserve deploys just fine. Regarding pack tray size, overstuffing the reserve tray, while not ideal, is quite common. I have seen countless jumpers who overstuff their rig so they can go with a smaller container. Their reserves still work when they deploy them.



They deploy just fine when terminal*

[mathrick 2]

LeeroyJenkins

Thanks for the reply. Most people I've asked say the "boxed in corners" nice to see a change. The incident with the line over happen almost 5 years ago in 2013 and the original video was from 2012. Wings has since redone their PC design and have even updated it again I believe in 2017.

And yet, there still has been no SB, nor any other form of communication on that matter that I know of, no materials for the riggers that I've seen mention that, nor does the spare parts catalogue make any mention of that (and what the compatibility between the new/old rigs and RPCs might be). I don't think advertising the RPC of all things as a "rigging breakthrough" on their product page counts, especially since the RPC is widely recognised to be one of the worst in the industry (at least before the redesign, so at best your headline boils down to "not quite as shitty anymore"). All I've ever heard about the redesign is unsourced hearsay here on DZ.com that differs from poster to poster. They also don't seem to have changed the ridiculously large and heavy cap I think? Which has a significant effect on the system's performance, so there's that.

And yes, the corners are ridiculous and stupid (and really don't look like they're gonna be harmless if your position is not ideal) and so is the reserve flap design which is simultaneously a needless PITA to rig and inspect for the jumper AND somehow more likely to come open in freefall. Just about the only thing that I can think of that they actually fixed is the "thread the RSL/ripcord under the cutaway housing" thing, which in fairness wasn't super difficult to follow, but hey, one more thing someone somewhere won't misrig.

"Skydivers are highly emotional people. They get all excited about their magical black box full of mysterious life saving forces."

[LeeroyJenkins 3]

mathrick

***Thanks for the reply. Most people I've asked say the "boxed in corners" nice to see a change. The incident with the line over happen almost 5 years ago in 2013 and the original video was from 2012. Wings has since redone their PC design and have even updated it again I believe in 2017.

And yet, there still has been no SB, nor any other form of communication on that matter that I know of, no materials for the riggers that I've seen mention that, nor does the spare parts catalogue make any mention of that (and what the compatibility between the new/old rigs and RPCs might be). I don't think advertising the RPC of all things as a "rigging breakthrough" on their product page counts, especially since the RPC is widely recognised to be one of the worst in the industry (at least before the redesign, so at best your headline boils down to "not quite as shitty anymore"). All I've ever heard about the redesign is unsourced hearsay here on DZ.com that differs from poster to poster. They also don't seem to have changed the ridiculously large and heavy cap I think? Which has a significant effect on the system's performance, so there's that.

And yes, the corners are ridiculous and stupid (and really don't look like they're gonna be harmless if your position is not ideal) and so is the reserve flap design which is simultaneously a needless PITA to rig and inspect for the jumper AND somehow more likely to come open in freefall. Just about the only thing that I can think of that they actually fixed is the "thread the RSL/ripcord under the cutaway housing" thing, which in fairness wasn't super difficult to follow, but hey, one more thing someone somewhere won't misrig.

I really wish I saved it. I know it’s floating around here somewhere. There is a set of pictures comparing the old RPC to the new RPC and is is quite different.

What’s hard to inspect and comes out during freefall? I think you mean the reserve pin flap. I have no clue how that would come undone.

As for the corners, I’m not a rigger, but when I compared my javelin to my wings they are nearly identical. The only noticeable difference is the bottom corners are stitched in a little more. About an inch on the wings. The top corners look the same.