Open letter to all DZO's

[hardhatpat 4]

This is addressed to all DZO’s. It’s in response to a recent video of a student cutting away far too low, that made the internet and was removed a few hours later. This video is excellent training material that should be shown in every FJC from this day forward. Someone did everything wrong and got incredibly lucky. Students need to know the trouble they can get into.

Luckily for us, this is the internet and it still exists: https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=607_1516923160

Stop hiding gnarly video. Shit happened, was captured on video, no one died, and now its training material. This is a dangerous sport. Shit is going to happen, and when it does the community needs to learn from it.

No tandem or AFF student is going to go to the other DZ because some video of a tail wrap on your aircraft exists. They wont find it and if they do, they don’t know what that means, or the risk to the passengers and aircraft. Theres a video of a porter stall spining for many thousand feet on the internet. Call that DZO and ask how much his tandem business suffered when it came out, I’ll bet he didn’t notice.

Sure, if you have video of a student almost fall out of the tandem harness and live or a tandem elevator ride, maybe delete that one.

But when we have a sport fuckup on video, that should be public knowledge.

[piisfish 140]

Where is the Porter stall video?

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[NuSky 0]

That link got the video erased too, here is another (with audio)
https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b9a_1516911586

[WV177RG 19]

This one?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=x6tgZVoZc7g

Stall break occurs ca. 2:38.

[piisfish 140]

WV177RG

This one?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=x6tgZVoZc7g

Stall break occurs ca. 2:38.

not a Porter. That’s an Atlas Kudu

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[Bob_Church 7]

hardhatpat

This is addressed to all DZO’s. It’s in response to a recent video of a student cutting away far too low, that made the internet and was removed a few hours later. This video is excellent training material that should be shown in every FJC from this day forward. Someone did everything wrong and got incredibly lucky. Students need to know the trouble they can get into.

Luckily for us, this is the internet and it still exists: https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=607_1516923160

Stop hiding gnarly video. Shit happened, was captured on video, no one died, and now its training material. This is a dangerous sport. Shit is going to happen, and when it does the community needs to learn from it.

No tandem or AFF student is going to go to the other DZ because some video of a tail wrap on your aircraft exists. They wont find it and if they do, they don’t know what that means, or the risk to the passengers and aircraft. Theres a video of a porter stall spining for many thousand feet on the internet. Call that DZO and ask how much his tandem business suffered when it came out, I’ll bet he didn’t notice.

Sure, if you have video of a student almost fall out of the tandem harness and live or a tandem elevator ride, maybe delete that one.

But when we have a sport fuckup on video, that should be public knowledge.

Those videos belong to the person who shot them. The DZOs have nothing to do with whether they're made available or not.

[CrashProne 4]

piisfish

***This one?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=x6tgZVoZc7g

Stall break occurs ca. 2:38.

not a Porter. That’s an Atlas Kudu

Regarding this stall/spin video... Does anyone other than me have a creepy feeling that this was intentional? I’ve stalled a bunch of airplanes and spun more than a few (always intentionally), and I’ve NEVER been in a situation that would have taken 1/10 the time to recover. It has been my experience that a concerted effort is required to keep an airplane spinning that long and hard.

If you watch carefully, you can see at several times during the developed spin, he’s still holding UP elevator, which of course is opposite what you would do to recover from the spin.

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

Bob_Church

Those videos belong to the person who shot them. The DZOs have nothing to do with whether they're made available or not.

Not necessarily.

If the video is shot by an employee of the DZ, then it is often (not always) considered "work product" and property of the DZ.

So, if the video of the student who cut away way, way, way too low was being shot as part of a student jump, paid to the DZ by the student, to be used to evaluate the landing, being shot by an employee of the DZ, then it is likely "property of the DZ" and under the control of the DZO.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[hardhatpat 4]

piisfish

not a Porter. That’s an Atlas Kudu

Sure seems like a porter to me, sliding left door, single turbine, and a tailwheel.

[gowlerk 2,190]

To add to the drama one of the tandems appears to be a paraplegic. With two pilots up front I would assume some training was going on.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[WV177RG 19]

piisfish

***This one?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=x6tgZVoZc7g

Stall break occurs ca. 2:38.

not a Porter. That’s an Atlas Kudu

Thanks for this correction. The only Porter I saw in person had a sleeker fuselage, more squared off tail and sliding jump door on the right side. That was 25 years ago. Didn't know if there was a more recent version.

[piisfish 140]

hardhatpat

***not a Porter. That’s an Atlas Kudu

Sure seems like a porter to me, sliding left door, single turbine, and a tailwheel.do a search for images, you should notice some differences.

And Porters have a sliding Right door, only a couple also have a sliding left door.

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[keithbar 1]

WV177RG

This one?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=x6tgZVoZc7g

Stall break occurs ca. 2:38.

. Holy crap! Hadn't seen that one before

i have on occasion been accused of pulling low . My response. Naw I wasn't low I'm just such a big guy I look closer than I really am .

[accumack 14]

Not a Poter as the video says. Landing gear, door and other differences.

[sundevil777 102]

accumack

Not a Poter as the video says. Landing gear, door and other differences.

Agreed, definitely not a Porter. Also, I would like to believe that a pilot would not intentionally spin at that time.

Did anyone else (besides the other jumper) notice the floating reserve handle at about 3:20?

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[chuckakers 425]

hardhatpat

Stop hiding gnarly video.

You are well intentioned, but maybe a bit narrow-minded with your suggestion. Videos depicting screw-ups, injuries, etc. can absolutely make a DZ look bad to those who don't understand the sport. Take large, busy DZ's for example. They may have multiple fatalities and injuries per year, and even when none of them are the fault of the DZ, whuffos still "wonder what the problem is".

We don't need videos like the one being discussed here to teach us lessons. Anyone can be taught not to do what this person did without seeing it online.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[piisfish 140]

hardhatpat

***not a Porter. That’s an Atlas Kudu

Sure seems like a porter to me, sliding left door, single turbine, and a tailwheel.Here is an outside video of the plane that stalled. It is an Atlas Angel (modified turbine Kudu)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxH7TFZ_4w8

Here is the startup and takeoff of a Porter https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpA3nscy84I

Atlas Angel/Kudu General characteristics
Crew: One
Capacity: Seven passengers or 454 kg (1,001 lb) payload
Length: 8.79 m (28 ft 10 in)
Wingspan: 11.84 m (38 ft 10 in)
Height: 3.25 m (10 ft 8 in)
Wing area: 19.54 m2 (210.3 sq ft)

Pilatus Porter General characteristics

Crew: one, pilot
Capacity: up to ten passengers
Payload: 1,130 kg (2,491 lb)
Length: 11.00 m (36 ft 1 in)
Wingspan: 15.87 m (52 ft 0¾ in)
Height: 3.20 m (10 ft 6 in)
Wing area: 30.15 m² (324.5 sq ft)

It is like comparing a Quest Kodiak and a Grand Caravan

Now show me a video of a Porter stall.

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[Hajo 0]

piisfish

Now show me a video of a Porter stall.

No Video, but a Horrorstory ... 30th of May 2008 Skydive Lillo, Spain.
Detailreport from Danny-Blu in the German Skydiving Magazine, FFX.

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=20232

--------------------------------------------------

With sufficient thrust,
pigs just fly well

[flyhi 24]

Quote

Videos depicting screw-ups, injuries, etc. can absolutely make a DZ look bad to those who don't understand the sport.

Scott Lutz comes to mind.

Shit happens. And it usually happens because of physics.

[piisfish 140]

Hajo

***

Now show me a video of a Porter stall.

No Video, but a Horrorstory ... 30th of May 2008 Skydive Lillo, Spain.
Detailreport from Danny-Blu in the German Skydiving Magazine, FFX.

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=20232i know the sad story. I know they can stall, never saw a video of a Porter stalling with a “good” outcome

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[bibliwho 1]

Still amazed at the duration of the spin, whether intentional or not.

My question is about exiting during a spin like that. The tandem & cameraman exited right away, as I would have done (ideally), but the two others apparently rode it down for quite a while.

Would like to know whether the best course is to exit right away, or stay put until X' to determine whether the pilot can correct the spin, or some other option. Is there a risk of hitting the aircraft if it's in a spin? If so, how big a risk?

[yoink 321]

chuckakers

***Stop hiding gnarly video.

You are well intentioned, but maybe a bit narrow-minded with your suggestion. Videos depicting screw-ups, injuries, etc. can absolutely make a DZ look bad to those who don't understand the sport. Take large, busy DZ's for example. They may have multiple fatalities and injuries per year, and even when none of them are the fault of the DZ, whuffos still "wonder what the problem is".

We don't need videos like the one being discussed here to teach us lessons. Anyone can be taught not to do what this person did without seeing it online.


Absolutely.