evh 22 #26 October 17, 2017 JerryBaumchenHi Tim, QuoteHaving one that is turned off, effectively is the same as not having one at all. Is it not? I used to be of this thinking. Just turn it off & you're good to go. However, over time, the batteries can deteriorate and destroy/damage the canopy, etc that is in the reserve pack tray. Jerry Baumchen Why do you want it "off"? Don't trust the software? Are you aware that you cannot really shut it off, except by removing the battery? So even when off, the software is still running, checking if someone is pushing the button? I think this is an additional reason why leaving an expired, unmaintained AAD in you rig may not be the smartest thing. I also think the hairsplitting regarding the exact wording of the rules is not the smartest thing to do. Yes you may get away with something that was not intended. But next update of the rules this will probably get corrected, in the meantime it leads to a text that only lawyers can understand. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 150 #27 October 17, 2017 JerryBaumchenHi Tim, QuoteHaving one that is turned off, effectively is the same as not having one at all. Is it not? I used to be of this thinking. Just turn it off & you're good to go. However, over time, the batteries can deteriorate and destroy/damage the canopy, etc that is in the reserve pack tray. Jerry Baumchen Hi Jerry....I was talking in a hypothetical way, as a one off when testing the meaning/wording of the "regulation". And of course the older mechanical AADs didn't have batteries and could be easily turned off. I bet I'd get some funny looks these days if I showed up with a KAP3 or FXC 12000 on a rig. Would they comply with the "rules" I wonder?My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skytribe 17 #28 October 22, 2017 So I dug up a reply direct from Airtec last year. Quote After this 12,5 years, of course, the CYPRES will still work but from the liability side of view, we as the manufacturer can not provide an extended warranty anymore. Meaning, if the sensor or the timing or other sensible parts (who are responsible for the calculation of the precise activation when needed) will change or deviate due to rough handling, age or chemical reactions, the CYPRES might not be as precise anymore like a new or newly maintained CYPRES. So the use of the CYPRES after the 12,5 years is up to the user himself or the regulations of his country. It will definitely not stop working after this time but it might happen that the preciseness or the reliability is not given anymore. Again, this could be construed in a number of ways. Up to the user or regulations of the country. Well the regulations state " "(c) If installed, the automatic activation device must be maintained in accordance with manufacturer instructions for that automatic activation device." Well the "maintenance" is performed at 4,8 years. Is retirement or end of life considered maintenance and that the manufacturer has stated in communication that after 12 years it is up to the user OR .... leaves a bit of ambiguity in there. Why not simply state that the device should not be used after the service life - 12.5 or 15.5 years. That way it is very clear - in fact from a software point of view they could disable the device at end of service life - ie. unit would not turn on. They are able to determine when unit requires service. And for the record you bring me an old AAD past its service life - I'm not packing it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Blis 1 #29 October 23, 2017 skytribeSo I dug up a reply direct from Airtec last year. Quote After this 12,5 years, of course, the CYPRES will still work but from the liability side of view, we as the manufacturer can not provide an extended warranty anymore. Meaning, if the sensor or the timing or other sensible parts (who are responsible for the calculation of the precise activation when needed) will change or deviate due to rough handling, age or chemical reactions, the CYPRES might not be as precise anymore like a new or newly maintained CYPRES. So the use of the CYPRES after the 12,5 years is up to the user himself or the regulations of his country. It will definitely not stop working after this time but it might happen that the preciseness or the reliability is not given anymore. Again, this could be construed in a number of ways. Up to the user or regulations of the country. Well the regulations state " "(c) If installed, the automatic activation device must be maintained in accordance with manufacturer instructions for that automatic activation device." Well the "maintenance" is performed at 4,8 years. Is retirement or end of life considered maintenance and that the manufacturer has stated in communication that after 12 years it is up to the user OR .... leaves a bit of ambiguity in there. Why not simply state that the device should not be used after the service life - 12.5 or 15.5 years. That way it is very clear - in fact from a software point of view they could disable the device at end of service life - ie. unit would not turn on. They are able to determine when unit requires service. And for the record you bring me an old AAD past its service life - I'm not packing it. The unit itself states very clearly when it's expired, even if it's not stated in manual. I can understand why they wont disable the unit because even expired unit provides some safety compared to not having one at all... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 150 #30 October 23, 2017 skytribeSo I dug up a reply direct from Airtec last year. Quote After this 12,5 years, of course, the CYPRES will still work but from the liability side of view, we as the manufacturer can not provide an extended warranty anymore. Meaning, if the sensor or the timing or other sensible parts (who are responsible for the calculation of the precise activation when needed) will change or deviate due to rough handling, age or chemical reactions, the CYPRES might not be as precise anymore like a new or newly maintained CYPRES. So the use of the CYPRES after the 12,5 years is up to the user himself or the regulations of his country. It will definitely not stop working after this time but it might happen that the preciseness or the reliability is not given anymore. Again, this could be construed in a number of ways. Up to the user or regulations of the country. Well the regulations state " "(c) If installed, the automatic activation device must be maintained in accordance with manufacturer instructions for that automatic activation device." Well the "maintenance" is performed at 4,8 years. Is retirement or end of life considered maintenance and that the manufacturer has stated in communication that after 12 years it is up to the user OR .... leaves a bit of ambiguity in there. Why not simply state that the device should not be used after the service life - 12.5 or 15.5 years. That way it is very clear - in fact from a software point of view they could disable the device at end of service life - ie. unit would not turn on. They are able to determine when unit requires service. And for the record you bring me an old AAD past its service life - I'm not packing it. Neither would I. But "service life" only came into vogue with the later generation AADs. Previously,(with mechanical units) as long as units were tested and/or upgraded, they had no "service life". I don't even think the original pyrotechnic Snyder Sentinels had a service life. Like the twin beech, the originals were so well made, the company weren't selling new ones, so they came up with a manufactured spar "problem" that ended with a good aircraft grounded. Airtec and the like are in business to sell AADs. It makes complete business sense from their POV to give them a shelf life. Deterioration of components may be a reasonable excuse to retire them, but underneath it all there will also be a commercial component to their decision making.My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,436 #31 October 23, 2017 Hi Tim, Quote I don't even think the original pyrotechnic Snyder Sentinels had a service life. No part of it had any service life. Jerry Baumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skytribe 17 #32 October 23, 2017 Blis The unit itself states very clearly when it's expired, even if it's not stated in manual. I can understand why they wont disable the unit because even expired unit provides some safety compared to not having one at all... But the units still function allowing people to utilize them after service life. This is what makes this even an issue. If they stopped working after service life then this would be a non-issue unless someone wanted to really go to town and hack the software. The fact that the manufacturer says it's up to the user after service life is also a bit of a weird statement. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrigger1 2 #33 October 23, 2017 Simple. Create a certified repair shop and company that re-certifies the expired units. That would not be any different most other components in the aviation world. Simple to do..... MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 150 #34 October 23, 2017 masterrigger1Simple. Create a certified repair shop and company that re-certifies the expired units. That would not be any different most other components in the aviation world. Simple to do..... MEL ACME AAD Repairs.......My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mark 107 #35 October 23, 2017 JerryBaumchen Quote I don't even think the original pyrotechnic Snyder Sentinels had a service life. No part of it had any service life. Jerry Baumchen Towards the end, the cartridges had a shelf life of two years. I regret being old enough to remember this. -Mark Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 150 #36 October 23, 2017 mark*** Quote I don't even think the original pyrotechnic Snyder Sentinels had a service life. No part of it had any service life. Jerry Baumchen Towards the end, the cartridges had a shelf life of two years. I regret being old enough to remember this. -Mark Most of the cartridges wouldn't survive more than 2 years in the field anyway, they were rather brittle and easily damaged, even with a sleeve to protect them. One of them did a job for me on my first freefall....after a horse shoe that took me 2500 feet to get rid of....so you won't find me slagging off the Sentinel 2000!!!My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 37 #37 October 24, 2017 mark I regret being old enough to remember this. -Mark Would you rather be dead? Or b a millienial?I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fcajump 164 #38 October 24, 2017 obelixtim Like the twin beech, the originals were so well made, the company weren't selling new ones, so they came up with a manufactured spar "problem" that ended with a good aircraft grounded. Airtec and the like are in business to sell AADs. It makes complete business sense from their POV to give them a shelf life. Deterioration of components may be a reasonable excuse to retire them, but underneath it all there will also be a commercial component to their decision making. While do not deny that they are in business to sell their product, but if the old technology was so good why are you not still using it? Because to get the improvements we wanted electronics were needed, and to obtain the level of reliability you/we want with electronics, you need to retire them "early"... Remember that MTBF is the mean time... do you want to be part of the group that fails before the average? As to the wing spars... IIRC don't think that was as manufactured a problem as you imply... several planes folded up in flight due to those spars killing those on board. And with the used market not doing a precise enough job with prior use traceability. In both cases, I'm of the opinion that flight is expensive... Safe(r) flight even more so. I can't fly/jump near as much as I want to... partially because I believe in putting additional money toward keeping it as safe from known problems as I can. AAD's proved their worth. Mfg's know more about their shit than I... so I follow them. Give me a reason to wonder if the plane is going to fold up and I'll ground it until we prove otherwise. But... that's just the ravings of a flyer who wants to die quietly in his bed at 120, wife on one side, mistress on the other, claiming he mistook one for the other. ;-) JWAlways remember that some clouds are harder than others... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
accumack 14 #39 October 24, 2017 mark*** Quote I don't even think the original pyrotechnic Snyder Sentinels had a service life. No part of it had any service life. Jerry Baumchen Towards the end, the cartridges had a shelf life of two years. I regret being old enough to remember this. -Mark The cartridge charge was changed in the 1980s the original was barium styphenate it was changed to black powder. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 150 #40 October 24, 2017 The earlier AADs were mainly for student rigs, experienced jumpers wouldn't go near them, mainly because of a fear of premature firings when doing RW. Also they were pretty bulky and heavy at a time when everyone wanted to fall slowly. There was also a culture of "real skydivers don't need an AAD". The later student AADs (FXC 8000 and 12000) were very reliable, and great for DZOs because they were so user friendly. The 8000s were not around for very long. The 2 problems with the Tandem FXCs I encountered at the DZ were on units fresh from the manufacturer came from incorrect reassembly after service...both resulting in premature firing. We got rid of them after that. Cypres had just come onto the market. And until that happened, there were no AADs really suitable for experienced jumpers that they could trust.My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Unstable 9 #41 October 24, 2017 QuoteThe later student AADs (FXC 8000 and 12000) were very reliable, and great for DZOs because they were so user friendly. The 8000s were not around for very long. I have boxes full of FXC 12000 and I've seen the old Sentinals - never heard of the FXC 8000. Was it similar?=========Shaun ========== Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 150 #42 October 24, 2017 The 8000 was the early version, but as I said, they weren't around for long, I think I only ever saw 1 example. I think FXC were involved with supplying the military, and the 8000 was their earlier version. I'm sure there is a dinosaur on here who can enlighten us.My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrigger1 2 #43 October 25, 2017 Quote ACME AAD Repairs....... Nah... AAD Recycling Company,LLC or Money For Nothing AAD Repair,LLC You must have watched an lot of cartoons way back when....:) But honestly this is something that I have thought about. So called "expired" Cypres' have been used in other parts of the world for several years now without any known issues. At least none that I am personally aware of. I do think that you do have to draw the line somewhere on age, but it is clear that 12 years is not the real number. I am thinking more like 20-25 years.I have several boxes of Cypres units made from the early 1990's and later that still function perfectly. One of them is 26 years old. It still works just fine if you put a battery in it. Question: Has anyone heard of or personally experienced a problem with an "expired" AAD in other parts of the world? MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 150 #44 October 25, 2017 masterrigger1Quote ACME AAD Repairs....... Nah... AAD Recycling Company,LLC or Money For Nothing AAD Repair,LLC You must have watched an lot of cartoons way back when....:) But honestly this is something that I have thought about. So called "expired" Cypres' have been used in other parts of the world for several years now without any known issues. At least none that I am personally aware of. I do think that you do have to draw the line somewhere on age, but it is clear that 12 years is not the real number. I am thinking more like 20-25 years.I have several boxes of Cypres units made from the early 1990's and later that still function perfectly. One of them is 26 years old. It still works just fine if you put a battery in it. Question: Has anyone heard of or personally experienced a problem with an "expired" AAD in other parts of the world? MEL Beep Beep..... As I said, they are in business to sell units. No one has properly investigated expired units, as the company has successfully pushed the line that they will no longer function. Its the throwaway culture in action.My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deimian 43 #45 October 25, 2017 obelixtim As I said, they are in business to sell units. No one has properly investigated expired units, as the company has successfully pushed the line that they will no longer function. Its the throwaway culture in action. I disagree. Electronic components have a limited lifespan, that varies a lot depending on a large number of factors. Would you be at the receiving end of a misfiring AAD? Because that can very well happen if people start pushing the life of their AADs with the mindset of "it will probably be ok and I won't accept this throwaway culture and the bullying to make me buy another AAD". For sure AAD manufacturers are in business to sell units. But that is no reason to disregard their recommendations. Maybe airtec determined through internal testing that their units are safe for up to 20 years. Take 30% from that to be safe for each and every unit out there. That's 14 years lifespan. Maybe they decided to add an extra 1.5 years just to sell more units. Ok. But I honestly prefer to be tricked into buying a new AAD 1.5 years ahead of time, than to fool myself thinking that I (or any other external company not endorsed by the manufacturer) know better than airtec (or vigil, or mars, or any other). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrigger1 2 #46 October 25, 2017 Quote As I said, they are in business to sell units. Very well understood beforehand. But that does not prevent someone from creating a syllabus and procedure of re-certification with a re-branded name. You could say that you are just using parts from the original device. Quote No one has properly investigated expired units, I would have to disagree with that thought process. People in other parts of the world have been Beta testing them for several years by default. Quote the company has successfully pushed the line that they will no longer function. ...which we all know is not true, They still will and do work. If Airtec was a FAA approved vendor/supplier/manufacturer I could see a problem with going against their claims that the unit should die at 12.5 years. Since they are not either of the above, the FAA does not give a rip either way. If a company were to re-claim and re-brand name the units, they then become the manufacturer that dictates user instructions. This I already know because I asked.... MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 150 #47 October 25, 2017 Deimian*** As I said, they are in business to sell units. No one has properly investigated expired units, as the company has successfully pushed the line that they will no longer function. Its the throwaway culture in action. I disagree. Electronic components have a limited lifespan, that varies a lot depending on a large number of factors. Would you be at the receiving end of a misfiring AAD? Because that can very well happen if people start pushing the life of their AADs with the mindset of "it will probably be ok and I won't accept this throwaway culture and the bullying to make me buy another AAD". For sure AAD manufacturers are in business to sell units. But that is no reason to disregard their recommendations. Maybe airtec determined through internal testing that their units are safe for up to 20 years. Take 30% from that to be safe for each and every unit out there. That's 14 years lifespan. Maybe they decided to add an extra 1.5 years just to sell more units. Ok. But I honestly prefer to be tricked into buying a new AAD 1.5 years ahead of time, than to fool myself thinking that I (or any other external company not endorsed by the manufacturer) know better than airtec (or vigil, or mars, or any other). Its a discussion point, not a fixed position. And the throwaway culture is real. Things are not designed to last, as was once the case. But, do you not think reconditioning is a possibility? Should it be investigated? Of course Airtec and their peers will not be happy with that.My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deimian 43 #48 October 25, 2017 obelixtim Its a discussion point, not a fixed position. And the throwaway culture is real. Things are not designed to last, as was once the case. I agree, but I do not believe this has any influence on AADs. It it very real on computers, TVs, phones, home appliances, etc. But one thing that people complaining about it typically forget is that in many cases this is the price to pay to advance quicker. The revenue of one generation of products pays for the research and development that goes into the next one. If things last forever, the development of new products would stagnate, unless the prices skyrocket. It is that simple. Affordable, long lasting and better than before. Pick any two. obelixtim But, do you not think reconditioning is a possibility? Should it be investigated? Sure, that might be a possibility. But I see two issues with that: -It has to be actively supported by the manufacturer and its suppliers, which would mean guaranteeing the supply of all its components. I think most electronic providers would laugh when a customer asks for a non-stop supply of a low volume and cheap component for 20+ years. So the issue goes up the chain of suppliers, it is not just the AAD manufacturer (which is small fish in the big picture). -Assuming the first point is not an issue, I'd doubt the savings would be huge. That would mean replacing all the electronics and sensors. So you can reuse the cutter (assuming the charge doesn't chemically degrade over 20+ years), the display and button, and the plastic or metallic case. Savings would be minor. A couple of hundred dollars maybe?. I don't know. obelixtim Of course Airtec and their peers will not be happy with that. It looks to me like you want to see AAD manufacturers as evil corporations focused on squeezing every dollar out of its customers. While I agree that they are in the market to sell units and make money, not to make friends with skydivers, I think you underestimate the complexity and costs of reliably extending AADs' life past the manufacturers stated lifespan. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 150 #49 October 25, 2017 Just to repeat: QuoteIts a discussion point, not a fixed position. Comprendez? I do understand your points.My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deimian 43 #50 October 25, 2017 obelixtim Just to repeat: Quote Its a discussion point, not a fixed position. Comprendez? I do understand your points. Comprendo . But as it was a discussion point, I did discuss , nothing else. Sorry if I got too caught up in the argument. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
