Packing Old but Airworthy Reserves

[HPC 7]

This post is for riggers only.
Do you have a reserve age limit after which you won't repack the reserve, even if it's in excellent condition and inspected and re-certified by the manufacturer? If so, what's your reasoning?
Thanks.

[peek 21]

HPC

This post is for riggers only.
Do you have a reserve age limit after which you won't repack the reserve, even if it's in excellent condition and inspected and re-certified by the manufacturer? If so, what's your reasoning?
Thanks.

Some of them I will pack if over 20 years old. It depends ...

I'm usually more concerned about the rig because of its looks, amount of wear, exposure to sunlight, etc.

But, does anyone know of a manufacturer that will "re-certify" a canopy over 20 years old?

[HPC 7]

Yes - PD re-certifies reserves over twenty. Their only criteria is condition.

What's right isn't always popular and what's popular isn't always right.

[councilman24 37]

Right now it's 47 years.

I'm not kidding. I will not pack canopies from the 60's and before. And it is not unusual for me to be asked to in pilot rigs.

For skydiving it's almost design obsolescence than age. I won't pack 5 cell Swifts or earlier Paraflite products. I won't pack X210 reserves. I won't pack Laser/Rascal line because it's the only one that has ever failed a pull test at 2lbs and I know quality control of materials for one of the two companies that made them was poor. At some point an early Raven, PD, or Glide Path will become an issue as we get farther from the introduction date. I'll ask the question another way. How old of thread would you use to manufacture a reserve? Right now it's condition of the fabric relating to number of pack jobs. I've grounded some early 'modern' canopies because if they were mains I'd guess they had 200 jumps on them from the feel of the fabric.

I'll gladly send folks to a rigger that will pack anything if they want.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[wmw999 2,442]

Completely off these days, but your mention of pilots reminds me of one at an airshow in the 1970's who wanted his silk emergency rig repacked (not by me, I wasn't a rigger yet). He was flying some
WW2 vintage aircraft, and he wanted authenticity. When the rigger suggested that silk deteriorates, and airworthiness was a consideration, the pilot said he'd never let his plane go down without him...
He didn't get his repack that day.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Unstable 9]

Quote

Completely off these days, but your mention of pilots reminds me of one at an airshow in the 1970's who wanted his silk emergency rig repacked (not by me, I wasn't a rigger yet). He was flying some
WW2 vintage aircraft, and he wanted authenticity. When the rigger suggested that silk deteriorates, and airworthiness was a consideration, the pilot said he'd never let his plane go down without him...
He didn't get his repack that day.

I do the rigging in this area for a number of Commemorative Air Force Wings. One Wing maintains a beautiful Cessna T-50 Bamboo Bomber and keep it as original as possible. Including the Parachutes. They are from 1947. I declined to Repack those, but obviously somebody is...

=========Shaun ==========

[HPC 7]

councilman24

At some point an early Raven, PD, or Glide Path will become an issue as we get farther from the introduction date.

Would you pack a 24-year old reserve that had just been inspected by PD, passed permeability, clamp (strength) tests, a 40-item checklist and was re-certified by them?

What's right isn't always popular and what's popular isn't always right.

[mark 107]

HPC

Would you pack a 24-year old reserve that had just been inspected by PD, passed permeability, clamp (strength) tests, a 40-item checklist and was re-certified by them?

Answering not for councilman24 but for myself, yes. Because PD is still making PDRs, and people are still buying them.

But to echo councilman24, it's not about age, it's about obsolescence/performance. If you are accustomed to the glide performance and flare of a more modern design, it doesn't matter how good your 5-cell Swift is. Eventually, Ravens/Glidepaths/PDRs will fall into the same category as a 5-cell Swift -- good for their day, but unforgiving now.

-Mark

[HPC 7]

I'm not sure I understand your logic. You're speaking from the performance standpoint of the reserve, while I'm talking about the safety and functionality of it from a deployment standpoint. It doesn't matter how big the difference is in performance between the main and reserve. The reserve is designed to be forgiving, and to be easy to fly, land where you want to and be easy to flare. An F-15 pilot doesn't have a problem flying and landing a Cessna, no more than an Indy 500 driver has a problem driving his SUV. The purpose of my question was not to judge an old reserve's performance or obsolescence, but to judge its safety as a reserve parachute intended only to save a jumper's life. Now, if you're talking obsolescence as far as technology is concerned, then I can see your point. But if a PDR of 24 years ago is built, deploys, flies, and flares the same as a PDR just off the production line then the only difference we're looking at here is age and condition. These two things don't necessarily correlate directly to each other either. You can can have a reserve that's just a few years old but has several deployments, was repacked by a rigger and in an environment that quickly affected its condition in a negative way. You can also have a 24-year old reserve that has zero deployments, and was kept in its container for 24 years except for the times it was out being repacked. Condition is the result of use, care, and how it was stored a lot more than age. Nylon does not degrade from age alone.
For example, what's the difference between a PDR that was bought 24 years ago, never used, never packed, and is still in its original plastic bag compared to a PDR just off the line? Let's assume for argument's sake that no changes were made to the design of the reserve itself. No rigger would refuse to pack the one just manufactured, but how many would refuse to pack the 24-year old one? And what would be the difference other than age?
Just curious as to thought patterns...

What's right isn't always popular and what's popular isn't always right.

[councilman24 37]

HPC

***
At some point an early Raven, PD, or Glide Path will become an issue as we get farther from the introduction date.

Would you pack a 24-year old reserve that had just been inspected by PD, passed permeability, clamp (strength) tests, a 40-item checklist and was re-certified by them?

Yes, and have. And Ravans, and Glide Path. I don't jump anything except AAD's newer than 1997. And 1978 Preserve or Strong rounds. But there has been a 20 year old Glide Path reserve that I felt was too dead (and I packed 80% of the time) and 3 year old pilot rig with too much sun damage that I have refused to pack. Its subjective and my comfort level.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[JerryBaumchen 1,360]

Hi Mike,

Quote

I'm not sure I understand your logic.

Well, I understand your logic; and that was the crux of the OP.

Nicely put; and I agree completely.

Jerry Baumchen

[HPC 7]

But based primarily on condition, and not age, right?

What's right isn't always popular and what's popular isn't always right.

[councilman24 37]

Packing wears out reserves.

If there is a model 5 generations behind in performance and design why should I want to put that on somes back. I don't want a daily driver with out at least front airbags. And I at least want an airfoil and brake system newer tham a five cell swift.

I might drive a 57 Chevy for an annual bolivard cruise and I might jump a C-9 military flat with a four line release for a nostalgia jump. But I also have a modern one pin chest reserve with a Vector spring pilot chute.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[HPC 7]

You're not answering the original post. When PD inspects a reserve, they know how many times it's been repacked and deployed - a slash "/" means repacked, an "x" means deployed. I'm talking about a reserve that has only one single difference from a new one -age. No design changes, a reserve that's still in production, etc.
Read my reply in which I compare two reserves in which the ONLY difference is age, and answer that question. I thought I made it a simple comparison with a simple question to get to the point.

What's right isn't always popular and what's popular isn't always right.

[councilman24 37]

HPC

This post is for riggers only.
Do you have a reserve age limit after which you won't repack the reserve, even if it's in excellent condition and inspected and re-certified by the manufacturer? If so, what's your reasoning?
Thanks.

Okay, No


Unless I don't want to.

And see first word in post 10 for answer to post 7.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[jerolim 7]

councilman24

Packing wears out reserves.

We tried to remove 20 year old rule here in Croatia, but in a controlled and safe way.

So I wanted to make sure reserve would still function in following scenarios:
1) Can fly and land normally / Design is not obsolete - Someone can easily stall reserve on landing resulting in minor or major injuries. Also some models wouldn't allow jumper to glide back to DZ and there is bigger chance of off DZ landings.
Solution :There would be a list of models that would allow some models to be allowed to be used after 20 years. This list would exclude 5 cells, lasers, and older obscure models.

2) Cypres activation - After number of pack jobs, porosity of fabric increases, reserves after number of packjobs start to open more slowly. There is a possibility that old reserve will not open in time in case of aad activation.
Solution would be that each reserve after 25 pack jobs or 20 years or older should be tested with porosimeter.
I have contacted http://www.porosimeter.hu , but they told me that they do not offer device for measuring skydiving canopies yet.

3) High speed activation - Reserve should "survive" high speed opening. To assure this each reserve must have bottom skin spanwise reinforcement (controlled by list of allowed reserves mentioned in scenario 1.), and pull test must be done to insure fabric can withstand opening forces.

As I failed to find and obtain field/cheap porosimeter this proposal for law change was not yet sent.

[mark 107]

HPC

I'm not sure I understand your logic.

Let me try again using shorter words.

Would you let your best friend use a new 24-foot flat circular as his or her regular reserve?

-Mark

[rmarshall234 13]

>Nylon does not degrade from age alone.

Are you sure about this? Because I've heard otherwise. Not arguing the point, just curious.

[JerryBaumchen 1,360]

Hi Mark,

Quote

Would you let your best friend use a new 24-foot flat circular as his or her regular reserve?

That is not the issue.

If he/she wanted to, that would be their business.

Jerry Baumchen

[riggerrob 643]

Backing councilman on this debate ..... but from a different angle.

New jumpers never learned how to fly older designs.

For example, back when (mid 1990s) Micro Raven 120 and 109 were introduced, (the dear departed) Al Frizby sang sarcastic songs about "stupid fat white men" jumping tiny reserves. I sang back-up in the choir.
A decade later, tiny Micro Ravens were popular with fun jumpers in Pitt Meadows. A young jumper wanted to load a Micro Raven at 1.6 pounds per square foot. Since the reserve was airworthy, I repacked it, but warned him about the risks. He dismissed me as a dumpy, old, gray-bearded Master Riger. A few months later, he made an entire parade of mistakes and broke a bunch of bones. Micro Ravens fell out of fashion faster than a greased anvil!

May I suggest an alternative solution?
Only pack gear that is younger than the user.
Only pack 5- cell reserves for people who have a hundred jumps on 5-cell mains.
If they had a bunch of jumps back when leather Frap-Hats were fashionable, they should be allowed to continue jumping with a leather frap-hat.
If someone had a thousand jumps before electronic AADs were invented (1991) then they should be allowed to jump without an AAD. Etc.
This attitude allows POPS, SOS, etc. to continue jumping familiar gear, but also ensures that year will fade from the DZ over the next decade.

[JerryBaumchen 1,360]

H Rob,

Quote

"stupid fat white men" jumping tiny reserves.

Once again, that is not the issue of the OP.

I swear, if Terry, Mark and/or you were in the witness box, the judge would hold you in contempt for not anwering the question(s) asked.

Jerry Baumchen

[HPC 7]

Why have you jumped into your time machine, gone back millions of years and returned with some dinosaurs? My OP had NOTHING to do with rounds. I clarified my question with a comparison between two reserves that are IDENTICAL except for age, and asked a simple close-ended question (that means a simple yes or no answer, followed by an explanation which my OP also asked to provide) to which very few responders have provided (thank you, Mr. Baumchen!).
Am I speaking Swahili here??

What's right isn't always popular and what's popular isn't always right.

[councilman24 37]

What the about yes and no are not direct answers?

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[HPC 7]

This is what PD told me.
Now, before I unlock the cage and let the Cornish pixies loose, I'm sure PD is speaking from a practical standpoint. Would I jump a nylon reserve that was 1,000 years old? NO. Would I jump one 30 years old that had been fully checked and inspected and given a thumbs up by a QUALITY-MINDED and REPUTABLE manufacturer such as PD? Yes. At some point, nylon will degrade because NOTHING lasts forever. However, the point at which the nylon will degrade to a point where even a conservative-minded company won't certify it is probably long past the jumper's lifespan, or the lifespan of his skydiving career.
I learned to jump on T-10s, 28' cheapos, followed by a shortlined 27' Russian. I then made my first square jump on a Unit, then (much to the consternation of the DZO) purchased what was then the hottest canopy - a Django Bandit. This was in 1983. And no, I never injured myself during that time.
I have no idea how old those T-10s were but they were what all drop zones were putting their students out on at the time. How old do you think that nylon was? Granted, those are mains but I'd be willing to bet that the nylon packed in the belly warts weren't spring chickens either.

What's right isn't always popular and what's popular isn't always right.

[HPC 7]

Many of these replies remind me of the exchange between Mr. Gambini and the judge in My Cousin Vinny. "Guilty or not guilty? If I do not hear either guilty or not guilty, I will hold you in contempt of court."
And how did Mr. Gambini respond?
Yes, Jerry, I feel like the judge.

What's right isn't always popular and what's popular isn't always right.