Packing Racer Reserves

[HPC 7]

This post is directed to current and former riggers. A "yes" or "no" answer, along with a reason would be much appreciated. Please read carefully and try to stay on subject.

Would you repack a reserve in a Racer rig? For the sake of argument (and to avoid re-addressing an old thread) please assume no dual RSL; either no RSL at all or single-sided set up per manufacturer's instructions. Also assume the rig is in excellent condition, and no more than a few years old. Finally, please assume the reserve is a currently-made PDR.

The reason I ask is because not too long ago someone in the NW was trying to sell a Racer. He was very honest and said that the reason was because he couldn't find a rigger in the NW that would repack his reserve.

We all know that the Racer is the only currently-manufactured rig in the US that uses a fully external reserve pilot chute. To the best of my knowledge, it's also the only one with a 2-pin reserve.

Please keep replies in line with the question at hand. No comments regarding the Racer's looks or differences with other rigs unless it has to do with the reserve container. Also, please no comments on cost-of-ownership due to 2-pin reserve as it relates to AADs.

Those of you who've been in the sport for any length of time know that jumpers seem to either love or hate this particular rig, for various reasons including the reserve system, rig's appearance, etc.

Thanks.

What's right isn't always popular and what's popular isn't always right.

[pchapman 279]

Yes I'd pack. (But I've owned Racers by chance since '91.)

Too many newer riggers in the guy's local area, who had never packed a Racer? That is the reason I assume? Rather than someone who has the skills but hates Racers?

The manual does a good job in some ways, in showing techniques that work. Although seeing their video would help too.

Still, the manual may have some confusing aspects -- The newer manual would show slightly different reserve flap arrangements than appropriate for an older Racer. And Racers could have any of a few different freebag designs. And there's still the old tacking of the closing loop from Kevlar loop days, although the manual does show it as being Optional. Nowadays we also have many riggers thinking closing loops should be replaced every repack, a problem on a Racer -- it could be more than an hour's job of tacking and whipping like some 1960's military rig, and maybe require ordering loops from Jump Shack if one is going to be really picky about using company parts.

In a quick skim of the manual I'm not sure what else would baffle someone trying to pack from the manual alone.

One should be able to pack from a manual... but if I were a newer rigger without Racer experience, I'd sure want to work with a rigger than knows them, to do the first repack.

It would be interesting to hear stories of why someone is hesitant to pack one.

[skytribe 17]

HPC

The reason I ask is because not too long ago someone in the NW was trying to sell a Racer. He was very honest and said that the reason was because he couldn't find a rigger in the NW that would repack his reserve.

The owner obviously didnt look very hard as I work at a DZ in the NW and we do not turn away Racers. Sure they are a bit of a pain to pack as I don't do many but have 2 customers who bring their racer rigs in once a year to get packed. I have zero problem inspecting, repacking Racers and I know my fellow colleague at the DZ will do them as well.

[gowlerk 2,216]

My CSPA issued rating does not cover 2 pin containers. For that reason only I would not pack a Racer. There is another rigger in the area who packs a lot of them and I would simply send it to him. I would get the training and rating myself, but there are no Racers currently being jumped on our DZ. So it would be a waste of my time and effort.

I suspect that riggers in your area who don't want to pack them don't know how as well.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[HPC 7]

You have the most valid reason for not packing Racers. Thanks for your input, it's much appreciated.

What's right isn't always popular and what's popular isn't always right.

[HPC 7]

Thanks for replying, and for supporting Racer owners.

What's right isn't always popular and what's popular isn't always right.

[HPC 7]

Thanks for your reply. Like you, I'd love to hear from someone who won't pack them, and their reason why (other than the Canadian rigger who posted that 2-pin reserves are a separate rating that he doesn't have, and wouldn't be worth getting).

What's right isn't always popular and what's popular isn't always right.

[Hooknswoop 19]

No.

A gap can form between the reserve pc and the container. Either the loop slips or the reserve compresses, or both. The owner or anyone can then tighten the closing loop without breaking the seal. If they over-tighten it, and the jumper cannot pull the reserve, i’m on the hook.

Derek V

[HPC 7]

Which DZ?

What's right isn't always popular and what's popular isn't always right.

[HPC 7]

Thanks for your honest input. I've read this on another forum thread, with the result that the reserve ripcord pull force required to clear the closing loop greatly exceeded legal requirements. However, if I had this issue with my rig I would take it to the rigger who packed it, and he (and ONLY he) can tighten it up so that the gap is eliminated, the ripcord pull force is still within requirements, and he wouldn't have to worry about someone else, be that person a jumper (who shouldn't be messing with it in the first place) or another rigger, altering the pack job that bears his seal (and thus his responsibility).
Unfortunately, I realize that not all jumpers think and operate like myself. I'm sure that would be your argument as well.

What's right isn't always popular and what's popular isn't always right.

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

Unfortunately, I realize that not all jumpers think and operate like myself. I'm sure that would be your argument as well.

Yep, especially if the owner has flown to an event out of state......

Derek V

[HPC 7]

In that case his only option to stay safe and legal would be to have the reserve repacked by another rigger at the event. Not so bad if his 180-day cycle were coming up.

What's right isn't always popular and what's popular isn't always right.

[gowlerk 2,216]

Hooknswoop

No.

A gap can form between the reserve pc and the container. Either the loop slips or the reserve compresses, or both. The owner or anyone can then tighten the closing loop without breaking the seal. If they over-tighten it, and the jumper cannot pull the reserve, i’m on the hook.

Derek V

Just curious now. A Reflex has the same issue. Do you pack them? The Reflex manual states that only the rigger who packed the reserve is allowed to tighten the loop. But there is no way to check on who does it anyway.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

Just curious now. A Reflex has the same issue. Do you pack them? The Reflex manual states that only the rigger who packed the reserve is allowed to tighten the loop. But there is no way in check on who does it anyway.

No, for the reason you stated.

Derek V

[councilman24 37]

You keep wanting yes and no answers but didn't like my last yes and no answers. Lot and lots of rigging is "depends". But here goes.


No. The first and last Racer with a ramair in it that I packed was in 1991. It was the only one with a ram air in the area and the guy got a rigger ticket after I packed it once. So, I am not current on them and someone else will better serve them. I would pack a round reserve in a Racer because I was very experienced in that. But nobody asks me to.

No. I hate Racers. I had a 1400 foot reserve total on an SST with the same pin configuration. Part of why I became a rigger. And I don't like the current reserve bag.

No. We have no Racers that I know on this side of the state and not many in Michigan that I'm aware of. We did in the 1980's and 90's since the they were invented here and the first ever SST's went to a local team.

Here's the depends you won't like. IF I did a lot of sport rigging AND if there were a lot of Racers in the area then I might pack them.

I have a Racer for rigger training. Nobody has asked to be trained on it. But I expect to ask to candidates this winter to try it.

The optional tack the loop, which wasn't optional when I was packing rounds in them, eliminates loop slipping and other tightening although I don't care much about that. My favorite rig and primary rig is a reflex.

I have other more personal reasons that I don't pack or recommend racers that I won't post here. Nothing to do with being a dealer for anything else.

BTW not too long ago I believe it was possible to get a new Reflex. Some have been built after Fliteline was sold. But with Ray semi retiring I don't know the current state of the TSO approval.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[skytribe 17]

And while we are going through the list - One pin teardrops. Although there aren't a huge amount of these in the USA.

My feeling is there are TSO'd equipment and if someone wants to tamper with any rig - its possible without leaving any obvious signs. Anyone I pack for I'm more than happy to tighten the reserve pilot chute as the pack job settles.

While we are talking about gear that people have problems with - how about a wings. They seem to have issues with reserve pilot chutes not extracting every time, reserve pilot chutes that don't seat down as nicely as other semi exposed pilot chutes.

[HPC 7]

That's not true. What I asked for was a yes or no, followed by an explanation as to reasoning. I never said you couldn't have a yes under certain conditions, and a no under other conditions. What had me clenching and teeth and loosening fillings was people going off subject (e.g. bringing up rounds) or giving answers that obviously showed they either didn't read the original post carefully or decided not to answer it directly.
I'm detail oriented, so the more info, examples, and case studies provided the happier I am. If you'd write a book about your rigger experiences and included a chapter on Racers, I'd read it.

What's right isn't always popular and what's popular isn't always right.

[HPC 7]

Quote

No. I hate Racers. I had a 1400 foot reserve total on an SST with the same pin configuration. Part of why I became a rigger. And I don't like the current reserve bag.

Did you determine was caused the total, and explain what it is about the current bag you don't like?

What's right isn't always popular and what's popular isn't always right.

[councilman24 37]

HPC

That's not true. What I asked for was a yes or no, followed by an explanation as to reasoning. I never said you couldn't have a yes under certain conditions, and a no under other conditions. What had me clenching and teeth and loosening fillings was people going off subject (e.g. bringing up rounds) or giving answers that obviously showed they either didn't read the original post carefully or decided not to answer it directly.
I'm detail oriented, so the more info, examples, and case studies provided the happier I am. If you'd write a book about your rigger experiences and included a chapter on Racers, I'd read it.

But you didn't provide enough detail. Most of the decisions I make about old reserves (emergency canopies) ARE about rounds. If you only wanted to talk about ram airs you should have said so. Rounds are not irrelavant to the discussion. 95% of what I pack or refuse to pack ARE rounds. YOU need to read you OP and not assume the rigging world revolves around ramairs.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[HPC 7]

Quote

Here's the depends you won't like. IF I did a lot of sport rigging AND if there were a lot of Racers in the area then I might pack them.

It's not that I don't like this comment, it's that from a logic standpoint it makes no sense to me. You won't currently pack Racers for a multitude of reasons (including almost going in strapped to one) and, I assume, for possible liability reasons. Yet, you say if a lot of jumpers in your area jumped Racers you might pack them. Can I safely conclude that money could change your mind? I would think that if you were against packing Racers for safety, liability, or other reasons that you would stick to that conviction even if everyone in the country switched to Racers.
Your comment totally baffles me - thinking about it has sprained my brain.
I'd love an explanation.

What's right isn't always popular and what's popular isn't always right.

[HPC 7]

Quote

Finally, please assume the reserve is a currently-made PDR.

I included the above comment in my OP. Please check the OP for yourself.
I thought I made all conditions clear. Unless PD currently makes rounds?
Last time I checked, two days ago, I only saw two reserves in PD's product line, and both were ramairs.
Maybe I'm speaking Swahili again. Learned some in grade school and it must be slipping out.

What's right isn't always popular and what's popular isn't always right.

[gowlerk 2,216]

What is it about any discussion about anything to do with Racers that leads to snark with about 10 posts?

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[councilman24 37]

It's never about money or liability. If they were popular here first I could be current and second I would want the best rigger in the area packing for my friends, me. I would tell every one of them why I didn't like them and let them choose.

No money would not change my mind. I wouldn't pack one now for $1000 because I'm not current on them.

If any rigger cares about liability they shouldn't be a rigger.

By the way fill in your profile so we know who the hell we're talking to.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[HPC 7]

Because as I mentioned in my OP, jumpers either love Racers or hate them. I've never seen a piece of skydiving equipment polarize a group as much as this rig.

What's right isn't always popular and what's popular isn't always right.

[HPC 7]

Quote

YOU need to read you OP and not assume the rigging world revolves around ramairs.

No sir, YOU need to read my OP in which I CLEARLY stated that the reserve is a PDR.

What's right isn't always popular and what's popular isn't always right.