m2 AAD? Worth it, or go with a different brand?

[20_kN 0]

I am looking at getting my first rig and so of course the question about AADs come up. Being that I am new to skydiving, I pretty much view AADs as like air bags or seatbelts--they all do the same thing it seems. As such, it seems like it would make sense to just buy whatever is cheapest which is the m2. I know there are a few threads on the m2, but none of which are recent that I found.

So the question would be, is there any reason not to buy the m2, or any reason why it would be worth paying $200 more for a Vigil or Cypress?

[Maddingo 21]

No, there is not. I've seen it fire a couple of times on the designated altitude without any hesitation. It has multy mode it will last you 15 years without service and it costs around 25% less. I bought it for mine. There is no reason why you would pick the other brands.

[kat00 11]

Well the airbag comparison might be a bad analogy with all the takata airbags being recalled. Yes the technology is really similar but you know vigil and cypress are trusted and have been around for years. It's also easy to get cutters or parts for them if they do fire.

It sounds like rig manufacturers like mirage, sunpath, aerodyne, etc approve them for use with their rigs. I would check with your DZ though just to make sure since they ultimately do the gear check to allow you to jump.

[benlangfeld 1]

One possible reason: ease of resale. If your rig has an in-date/serviced Cypress or Vigil, no-one would think twice about it. With an m2, some people will pass over your ad, or at least be a lot more cautious about it.

That is not a comment on the quality of the m2 as a product, which several people say is fine, but simply an apparent market reality.

[rjklein4470 23]

I purchased one with my new rig, and I am impressed with the ease of use, and the multi settings.

I would say yes it might hurt the sale in a beginner rig, but in a advanced rig I would say no. Most experienced skydivers would not be turned off by the brand.

[pchapman 279]

Any of the 3 major brands is OK.

new Cypres' are 15.5 yrs no maintenance (older used ones were 12.5 with maintenance at 4 & 8 years)
Vigil 20 years but send it in at 10 for battery
M2 15 yrs no maintenance

Plenty of debate possible about how well trusted each is and what their track record is, but nobody is going to look at you like a weirdo with any of those. (It's like how some people will always go Mac for a PC but for others a Windows machine is perfectly acceptable.)

One can also debate screens, ease of setup for special conditions, multi mode ability for special conditions... But for regular jumping all are fine.

[piisfish 140]

If I understand correctly, CYPRES would be 15,5 years provided it is maintained every 5 years

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[pchapman 279]

Ah, Cypres life. I looked at their document* again and the language is a bit vague, but I still understand it is 15.5 with no maintenance. Service is just "recommended".

The vague part was where they wrote "For this extended service life we offer a maintenance at 5 years and 10 years [...]"

But later they say "In short:" and state 15.5 years, service recommended. No conditions.

Edit: Haven't checked back on their website to check for anything newer though. Gotta run now.

(To the OP: The Cypres was the original modern electronic AAD and was more conservative with maintenance than other companies later chose to be. In the early days, AADs were highly distrusted, so Cypres wanted close control of their product.)




* The original announcement I saw was a scan of a physical letter of Jan 26, 2017.

[gowlerk 2,216]

I don't think the price difference is quite that much anymore. The competition in the market brought about by the M2 seems to have worked as it should. AADs have been overpriced for several years. More options has begun to change that and has forced Airtec into abandoning it's more extreme version of planned obsolescence.

Which one should you buy? I've got my opinion on what I would do. But the only advice I really want to give in this forum is that they are all good and will do their job just fine.

[kpitchford 2]

Go for it. You won't regret it. I have one in both of my rigs. Great customer service and still the best choice for total cost of ownership compared to Vigil or Cypres.

Yes they are new to the US Market (3 years I think), but M2s have been in use in Europe for much longer. Plus, the company has been making a military version for nearly 20 years, so they've got a long track record as a company.

Vigil's menu is a little easier use if you're constantly switching modes or retrieving stats from the last jump. However, if you're not constantly poking around in the config, you won't miss it.
I only put Vigil 2nd to M2 based on cost and the fact you have to send it in at 10 years for a new battery.

Cypres....meh. Just my .02!

[skytribe 17]

Quote

Yes they are new to the US Market (3 years I think),

More like 5 years now.

The M2 just like the Vigil and Cypres are devices which you ideally don't want to use. All the unit function and have documented saves. Mars is not a new company and has been around quite a while.

That being said, it is definately the 3rd manufacturer in terms of units out in the public. That said it is a good unit and has been extensively tested - especially so after the fiasco with the Argus.

Airtec like to tout themselves as the best - never had any issues etc. but that is pure marketing speak. The units work as well as any other unit - no better/no worse. They have had problems and I have reason to question their business ethics when a problem arises - they are aware of but don't make it public until they have a fix/resolution. This has resulted in a fataility which MAY have been avoided if the issue was made public. Also the servicing of units has been a cash cow for them for many years and the switch to 15.5 year service life instead of 12.5 from an arbitary date and making servicing optional is IMHO a ploy to maintain the steady cash cow income while making the units more competitive with the competition.

Vigil - nice company, easy to work with and very open when it comes to any issues and there have been issues - just look at the SB. But they are responsive when it comes to problem resolution.

M2 - new player. The issues they have had appear to have been more preventative on the cutters and they resolved easily. The unit has simpler interface to turn on and the screen is a little bit more difficult to navigate than the other two but most people turn on and forget about it. Its there safety net and they don't alter the settings.

The original M2 had a signifcant cost benefit over the other two but the newest changeable mode one is now more closely costed to the other two so it really is a moot point which one you want to buy if buying new.

Any three of them would be fine - hopefully you never have to use it.

[skydiverek 63]

skytribe

Airtec like to tout themselves as the best - never had any issues etc. but that is pure marketing speak. The units work as well as any other unit - no better/no worse. They have had problems and I have reason to question their business ethics when a problem arises - they are aware of but don't make it public until they have a fix/resolution. This has resulted in a fataility which MAY have been avoided if the issue was made public. .

Adrian Nicholas?

[skyderrill66 15]

I would be afraid to buy one and end up with a$1,000 paper weight like the argus. i would only consider something that has been around and is proven and accepted. I know SD arizona wont let the argus on their aircraft and i am sure their are more dz,s that won,t allow them. It would suck to go to a new dz for a big boogie or just to have fun and be told you can,t jump because you have brand x aad in your rig.

[Deyan 36]

Maddingo

No, there is not. I've seen it fire a couple of times on the designated altitude without any hesitation. It has multy mode It's supossed to last 15 years without service and it costs around 25% less. I bought it for mine. There is no reason why you would pick the other brands.

Fixed it for you! What the guys at Vigil said 14 years ago was that's it's supposed to last 20 years. We haven't had one go that far yet, but the batteries are no longer field replaceable. So liked or not, people having Vigils will be shipping them back ...

"My belief is that once the doctor whacks you on the butt, all guarantees are off" Jerry Baumchen

[skytribe 17]

Quote

Adrian Nicholas

That would definately be one that springs to mind and one which was investigated by a UK coroner who also questioned the business ethics of Airtec for not disclosing the problem as soon as it became known.

[HPC 7]

Why can't they make the Vigil battery field-replaceable by a rigger? Sending it in means going without an AAD for a while, and shipping and even more so insurance just adds cost of ownership.
Hypothetical question for you, legit question for Vigil manufacturer.

What's right isn't always popular and what's popular isn't always right.

[councilman24 37]

As I understand it they can ship the battery in a device but can no longer ship the battery alone.

As to business ethics I have more issues with A.A.D. (vigil) than Airtec. Based on long history I won't go into here.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[skytribe 17]

councilman24

As I understand it they can ship the battery in a device but can no longer ship the battery alone.

As to business ethics I have more issues with A.A.D. (vigil) than Airtec. Based on long history I won't go into here.

Which is really my point - none of the devices is perfect and each of the companies does things which some may consider questionable.

Your money, your choice. I don't believe any of the devices is much better than the others.

[gowlerk 2,216]

HPC

Why can't they make the Vigil battery field-replaceable by a rigger? Sending it in means going without an AAD for a while, and shipping and even more so insurance just adds cost of ownership.
Hypothetical question for you, legit question for Vigil manufacturer.

Until recently the battery was field replaceable. But within the last year regulations for shipping lithium ion batteries of the type they use have changed and they are no longer legal to ship by air in the USA. At that time they decided that the best course of action was to have them changed in DeLand. I'm not sure how they handle it in Europe.

[gowlerk 2,216]

skytribe

Quote

Adrian Nicholas

That would definately be one that springs to mind and one which was investigated by a UK coroner who also questioned the business ethics of Airtec for not disclosing the problem as soon as it became known.

I know nothing of this incident. But I do know that Airtec releases absolutley no information that they do not have to. Not ever. They are a complete black box and they have a level of arrogance that is astounding.

[HPC 7]

I wonder if not being allowed to ship batteries by themselves has something to do with the UPS 747-400 that crashed outside Dubai that was attributed to an inflight fire the root cause of which was determined to be the cargo of lithium-ion batteries among its cargo.

What's right isn't always popular and what's popular isn't always right.

[HPC 7]

Quote

But I do know that Airtec releases absolutley no information that they do not have to. Not ever. They are a complete black box and they have a level of arrogance that is astounding.

Must be that kraut stubbornness.

What's right isn't always popular and what's popular isn't always right.

[HPC 7]

I can see not shipping by air but what about UPS or FedEx ground?

What's right isn't always popular and what's popular isn't always right.

[gowlerk 2,216]

HPC

I can see not shipping by air but what about UPS or FedEx ground?

That's what I thought as well. But they decided to just discontinue shipping them. It's probably just as well. Opening them up, changing the battery, then properly reapplying silicon to the o ring leaves a fair amount of room for someone to make an error.

[Deyan 36]

gowlerk

***Why can't they make the Vigil battery field-replaceable by a rigger? Sending it in means going without an AAD for a while, and shipping and even more so insurance just adds cost of ownership.
Hypothetical question for you, legit question for Vigil manufacturer.

Until recently the battery was field replaceable. But within the last year regulations for shipping lithium ion batteries of the type they use have changed and they are no longer legal to ship by air in the USA. At that time they decided that the best course of action was to have them changed in DeLand. I'm not sure how they handle it in Europe.

What I think it's happening is that they found out it can't last 20 years without maintenance, and they are using the battery shipment excuse to have it at least once back for a check. After all, maintenance free was their sale pitch for so many years. And this is exactly the same reason why they have the Vigil 1 exchange program. For just a bit more money than the battery replace, you get a brand new Vigil Cuatro. I could be totally off, but if it looks like a duck...

"My belief is that once the doctor whacks you on the butt, all guarantees are off" Jerry Baumchen