Riggers, do you have an age limit for PDRs, Tempos, or Ravens etc. (Please try to stay on the topic of age only)

[gowlerk 2,192]

I'm not talking about ancient designs. The original PDRs are getting older now. Tempos and Ravens etc have not been made for years, but the design is not really obsolete. The FCI line of Mavericks, Firelites and others is still in production. I'm only asking if you have an AGE limit. Please don't confuse the issue with discussions about obsolete designs.

[peek 21]

gowlerk

Riggers, do you have an age limit for PDRs, Tempos, or Ravens etc. ... I'm only asking if you have an AGE limit.

I will not reject a reserve of that era solely on age, but consider a number of things, including how much liability some of those things add. (Hope you weren't expecting a yes/no answer.)

[Unstable 9]

No age limit, but I will not pack anything that is not safe or violates any manufacturer's recommendations.

=========Shaun ==========

[gowlerk 2,192]

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including how much liability some of those things add. (Hope you weren't expecting a yes/no answer.)

I'm looking for a discussion and to find out if there is a move among riggers to reject canopies based on age. But I'd like to know what you mean by added liability and what might cause it.

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

Didn't we have this discussion a few months ago?

My answer is "No."

Age alone is not a determining factor.

But I agree that "liability" in other areas is a factor.

I wouldn't pack, for instance, a Micro Raven for someone who is overloading it (or anyone overloading any reserve).
That could be considered an "ancient design issue".

I haven't had it be an issue, but I would say something like:

You're overloading this thing rather badly. It's not going to be good if you have to fly and land it. I won't pack it.

If they complain that another rigger has repeatedly packed it for them, I would suggest they go back to that rigger.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[RiggerLee 61]

One of the major rigger in the area refuses to pack canopies older then twenty years. If it's old enough to drink he wont pack it. I can understand him taking a hard line on this because I know who some of his costumers are. He deals with a lot of older pilot rigs and honestly we've been letting them scrape by way too long on some of those. So he put his foot down and made them start replacing canopies. And honestly, that was a good thing on some of those rigs.

I'm easier going and prefer to make the judgement based on it's condition. It's hard to tell these guys that their shit is shit and grounded. Somebody packed it before. It's been good for the last fifty years. What do you mean you wont pack it? So although it's harsh and often unfounded I can understand him drawing a hard line. It also doesn't hurt that he's a gear dealer. And although he's made a lot of sales off this I'd like to think that that wasn't his motivation. I honestly think he just got sick of arguing with crusty old pilots.

Lee

Lee
lee@velocitysportswear.com
www.velocitysportswear.com

[peek 21]

gowlerk

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including how much liability some of those things add. (Hope you weren't expecting a yes/no answer.)

I'm looking for a discussion and to find out if there is a move among riggers to reject canopies based on age. But I'd like to know what you mean by added liability and what might cause it.

For example, if the owner is an older jumper that is familiar with the way the reserve would fly, and if it is not highly loaded, I would consider the liability low.

If a newer jumper went out and bought an older rig just because it was cheap, and it has an older reserve in it, the liability would be higher. Older designs require a bit more finesse to land and many newer jumpers don't know how to land them well.

[PhreeZone 20]

I've got some rigs with old canopies that I pack with no issue (My personal reserve is 18 years old with 14 repacks) but I also reject some rigs due to the jumper and their gear choices.

I turned down a jumper that has a MicroRaven 135-M that's loaded about 1.7ish. Canopy is in decent condition but its racking up the repacks (guessing 40-50+ since it was from the 120 day repack cycle era and had a few rides but a lost datacard) and its a horrible choice for the jumper so I don't want my name on it.

Same with a Phantom 145 that I see every few years - I have got to the point where I am done packing it since its now approaching 30ish years old. The jumper could probably land it but since he's 210+ out the door and not current - its not getting packed by me anymore.

Hard limit on age at 20 years? No but I fully will drop clients if they have older designs or their gear is racking up a ton of repacks and I know they are pushing the limits of what the gear is designed to do. I have a Raven II that was dropped off this week that is from April of '91 (27 years old) that I'm packing. Part of that is due to the jumper being about 130 pounds out the door so shes flying it like it was meant to be flown.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[gowlerk 2,192]

While I do agree with your feelings about people overloading canopies beyond their design limits that's not the issue I'm trying to gauge here. I really want to know if it's true that riggers, especially sport skydive riggers, are imposing age limits.

I know it's a forum and thread drift is inevitable, but I'm trying to isolate this one question only.

[masterrigger1 2]

I do not impose any age limit on reserves. If it is good with a thumb test, no stains, etc... It is good to go in my book.

MEL

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

[betzilla 56]

I don't personally have an age limit, but my employer set a 20 year age limit on certificated components long before I started here. I've made a handful of exceptions, but for the most part, I'm grateful for the rule -- it allows me to decline to work on gear that is technically airworthy, but gives me the creeps. I've referred pilots with 21 year old gear to other area riggers several times - the skydivers obviously know where they can find other lofts, so that isn't necessary for them

[lucianaofly 0]

In Brazil, the local regulation is : 40 lbs test mandatory after 20 years, retest after each 2 years. Not airworthy after 30 years ( if serviced in factory , like PD, the new

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factory limit is accepted).

lucianao

[Unstable 9]

I think Gowlerk has a really good concept with his discussion and keeping the factors related to outdated designs out of the scope here. Let's be honest - the gear we use today (PDR, Javelin, Mirage, etc) is descended from innovations that occurred from 1988-1992, which seemed like a very pivotal time frame.

Don't all riggers have a story about someone finding a closet queen, <100 jump like brand new Rig from 199X that with a few exceptions, represents what is being jumped today with perhaps a few updates (Bridle cover, etc)? Seems like in this case, applying an artificial age limit beyond the scope of safety or any manufacturers recommendations is adding a barrier to jump that would not improve the safety of the jumpers concerns.

=========Shaun ==========

[JerryBaumchen 1,363]

Hi Shaun,

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finding a closet queen

About 1 1/2 yrs ago, a local DZO called me & said that some pilot was wanting to get his parachutes repacked but the DZO thought they needed testing.

I told him to have the pilot call me to discuss. The pilot brought over two pristine Security 350 SafetyChutes. They looked like they had just came off of the production line.

I told him that I could test them and they might/might not pass. I also informed him that I would not recommend any testing due to many riggers no longer willing to work on 20+ yr old gear.

I gave him a price on replacing the two canopies but he did not want to spend the money.

He returned them to where he bought them & got his money back.

Yup, this stuff is out there.

Jerry Baumchen

[Unstable 9]

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Yup, this stuff is out there.

My story is a Soldier from Ft. Leavenworth that bought a Custom Talon container in 1990 as he was an active jumper a the time. He was deployed to Desert Storm and the rig was delivered while he was overseas. He returned home and never made a jump again. He gave us t he rig still with the work order tag attached to the chest strap and with the original packaging. We packed it up after converting from ROL to BOC and working with the manufacturer on applicable SB's and updates. As of a few years ago, that rig was giving great service (In Moab last I heard).

No regrets.

=========Shaun ==========