Unconcious or uncontrolled reserve landing

[kuai43 7]

skydiverek

Here one can see what a no input landing, under an extreme high wing loading, looks like...:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERRrUcyOiE4

Where the HELL did they get a B-25???

Every fight is a food fight if you're a cannibal

Goodness is something to be chosen. When a man cannot choose, he ceases to be a man. - Anthony Burgess

[20_kN 0]

gowlerk

Quote

An exception to the thing about AADs being useless is that it changes the amount of time a jumper has to shake it off and start functioning again by a huge factor.

The actual number of AAD saves is pretty small.

Vigal claims that 294 people have been saved by their product. By the looks of it that only includes those who appear to have submitted a report online, which is probably only a portion of those actually saved, and that's just one of the three main brands.

www.vigil.aero/life-saving-list


If you want to find out what's causing AAD saves, just read the list. People on the list say why their AAD activated.

[Islander-O 0]

In 1987 our 8-way broke off for opening. One guy that opened at the upper level had a chop. Before his reserve opened, he hit the guy from the low level. The guy that was hit did was smacked before he released steering toggles. So, he landed knocked out on main (around 240 sq.f) with stowed breaks. Luckily, we opened above a plowed field. He suffered concussion and many bruises. He never recovered from that hit (it was the mixture of past traumatic syndrome and disruption of a fine coordination) and was not able to continue RW on competition level...

[20_kN 0]

Looks like Cpyres claims they have saved more than 4,000 lives.

https://www.cypres.aero/blog/saves/

Not sure if that number is accurate. Sounds a bit questionable since they only have a few hundred reports on their saved list. Even so, say it's only 500, the USPA says that 21 people died skydiving in the USA in 2016. Not sure how that number changes when considering the whole world, but even so several hundred or a few thousand AAD saves that likely would have been deaths without AAD assistance seems to have a quite significant influence in keeping the numbers down.

https://uspa.org/Find/FAQs/Safety

[jurgencamps 0]

tkhayes

I include it as part of one of my safety talks.... "What size reserve do you have?"

Now ask everyone about landing that parachute, downwind, no flare, brakes set.....

Most will cringe

Now ask them again about what size of a reserve they have and why.... The extra 20-30 sq ft could mean the difference between a broken limb or death

also effective to ask they why they have an AAD if their reserve is some sub-120 micropatch, since the actual scenario in which you might need it (unconscious) becomes unsurvivable anyway..... save the money and blow it on skydives, cocaine and loose women..... usually get some levity out of that.

But of course we are all jumping small reserves for the most part so we talk and we are all guilty. Fat bastard that I am, I upsized my reserve at the last gear change but still would be well over 1.5 wing loading

+1.
One day I had to land my reserve on a tennis court, surrounded with trees.
After you have executed your EP, you do not always have a lot of options left to pick your landing spot.

I have a 150 reserve and a 90 / 120 main.

[pchapman 279]

20_kN

Looks like Cpyres claims they have saved more than 4,000 lives.

https://www.cypres.aero/blog/saves/

Not sure if that number is accurate. Sounds a bit questionable since they only have a few hundred reports on their saved list.

They also had an older list that covers time before their current online list. So that was a pdf with 47 pages of maybe 7 to 9 per page, so maybe 350 more saves with actual stories, from 1991-2007.

There is always the debate about what data gets into any saves list -- whether "send me a repacement cutter because of the old one fired" gets into the list, even though it may have been "yeah he pulled a bit low and had a two out".

[dpreguy 14]

I think it was early 90's. Just before sunset. Jack (last name unimportant) was observed by many of us on the ground to have an open canopy. We all wondered why he was just going and going and going downwind. Unconscious for sure. Knocked out on opening? (He was a marathoner and did 100 mile races with running and bicycling) Even so, there was talk of a failed heart due to a hard opening? No one knows for sure. There were a 15 or 20 of us skydivers watching the whole thing. We never knew why, but he just kept going into the Western sun and landed without any toggle input. Not ever. He was so far away we just saw his canopy disappear on the horizon. That was it. Emergency crew found him dead. He had impacted a dirt embankment. All of us were watching him go about maybe a mile or more downwind without any corrections. Pretty sure it was a PD Stilletto. All of us saying, "What is going on ? Why doesn't he turn? All of us with increasing anxiety and dread as he got closer to the ground.

Was he dead at opening time? Did he die because of the impact? Even after medical exam no one ever knew. Very sad day. We lost a good friend.

[tikl68 6]

approximately 6 years ago at Elsinore a wing suitor walked in from the landing area asking if we had seen so-n-so, his buddy. We said no. He said we should go looking for his friend,because he and his friend had collided and he thinks his friend was knocked out. We found his friend at the golf course about a mile north. His was knocked out,AAD fired, still unconcious during landing(according to golf players that witnessed landing on the greens) with nor flare. He suffered a broken femur from the landing, and other injuries were from the initial collision, but he did survive. The other jumper had a large bruise on his thigh.

[GoGoGadget 0]

birdynamnam

could you pls post here the results of that?

Sent my Bonehead Aero in to them to check it out and see what could be done. They installed a Zeta liner and ear cups made for a flight helmet. The Zeta liner fits decently and seems a bit more impact absorbent. But the earcups make it a little harder to get on and off. When I pulled the ear cups out and re-installing the OEM ear pieces, their was an overlap between them and the liner that created a hotspot that I think would quickly become very uncomfortable.

I could cut the OEM earpieces down to fit the new liner, but decided it was not worth the cost for what little I was getting. The problem is that the shell is simply not large enough to have any significant impact protection between it and your skull. So I returned it to original spec and will be sending the Oregon Aero stuff back.

[jclalor 12]

20_kN

This video kind of fits the bill. They were in control, but had little time to do anything.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCrvQ_xy_LA

Once on the ground, the repeated looks at his altimeter are priceless.

[Bob_Church 7]

GoGoGadget

***Oregon Aero sells helmet liners that absorb significant amounts of shock. They are made of several different densities of Astronaut foam..

Yep. Good stuff too. I have a ballistic helmet with their upgrade kit. I was actually looking at their site yesterday to see what they offered that might work with my Bonehead Aero. I am going to contact them to see if I can send them the liner and have them cut foam panels in various thickness to the same template.

Some people may take this as sarcasm but it's not, honest. Have you looked at Pro-Tec helmets? I'm not actually saying to get one, I don't know because I haven't seen any good evaluations of them and how well they work. They're considered novice, or maybe even nerd helmets. I wore one for years and lost it out the door of a 172 somewhere over West Virginia in the 80s, but if I were to go back to wearing a helmet I'd more than likely get one, or maybe get really hip and with it and get one of their half-shells.

[GoGoGadget 0]

Bob_Church

******Oregon Aero sells helmet liners that absorb significant amounts of shock. They are made of several different densities of Astronaut foam..

Yep. Good stuff too. I have a ballistic helmet with their upgrade kit. I was actually looking at their site yesterday to see what they offered that might work with my Bonehead Aero. I am going to contact them to see if I can send them the liner and have them cut foam panels in various thickness to the same template.

Some people may take this as sarcasm but it's not, honest. Have you looked at Pro-Tec helmets? I'm not actually saying to get one, I don't know because I haven't seen any good evaluations of them and how well they work. They're considered novice, or maybe even nerd helmets. I wore one for years and lost it out the door of a 172 somewhere over West Virginia in the 80s, but if I were to go back to wearing a helmet I'd more than likely get one, or maybe get really hip and with it and get one of their half-shells.

I was talking to my rigger about how I wrote "Warning: Newbie Jumper" on the back of my Pro-Tec when I got my A license. Being older when I started this, I did not want someone to confuse grey hair with experience in this sport. I wanted people to feel free to stop and correct me if it looked like I was about to do something less than wise.

He replied, "Oh don't worry. As soon as they see you wearing a Pro-Tec, they will know you are a newbie."

So yeah, I have one. And Oregon Aero makes an upgrade kit for it. But I prefer my full face for comfort and my audible stays in it easier.

[grimmie 186]

A full face offers far more protection in a crash landing.

[IJskonijn 45]

grimmie

A full face offers far more protection in a crash landing.

[dark] Great, so you can have an open casket service! [/dark]

Skydiving fullface helmets don't offer anywhere near the amount of protection you need in any serious crash. Just compare the amount of padding material in a motorcycle helmet vs a skydiving helmet. The motorcycle helmet manufacturers don't put the padding in because they like it, they put it in because they NEED it to meet the minimum safety standards for such helmets. And a motorcycle crash isn't that much faster than someone crashing while swooping something <100sqft.

[Naimanator 0]

I have personal experience which I will share.

In June of 2013 I was knocked unconscious at around 10,000 ft while taking part in a large and poorly planned tracking dive. Upon being knocked unconscious I was put into such a fast spin on my back that when my AAD (Vigil 2) fired I was only falling 5 mph faster than the activation speed. My reserve (PD Reserve 176 @ 1.1 WL) deployed and fully inflated but with severe line twists. I spiraled down unconscious under my reserve and impacted a dirt field. Witnesses estimated my speed at time of impact to be approximately 30 mph vertical. I was wearing a Triple 8 skate helmet at the time of the incident due to the fact that I lost my Cookie Ozone on a jump the day earlier.

I sustained a Jefferson fracture of my C1 vertebrae and multiple compression fractures in my lower C's and T's. I also blew out a lot of my teeth. No other broken bones.

I am incredibly fortunate to be alive, and even more so to not be a quadriplegic. I got off lucky with no hardware in my spine, only 3 months spent in a halo brace to allow my C1 to fuse itself back together. Oh yeah, and a metric shit ton of reconstructive dental work. Did my first jump back about 4-1/2 months after the accident. I had about 350 jumps at the time of the accident and now have 1750+. I've been working as a full-time AFFI, and Sigma TI for the past year-and-a-half with no plans to quit anytime soon.

[Phil1111 1,149]

IJskonijn

***A full face offers far more protection in a crash landing.

[dark] Great, so you can have an open casket service! [/dark]

Skydiving fullface helmets don't offer anywhere near the amount of protection you need in any serious crash. Just compare the amount of padding material in a motorcycle helmet vs a skydiving helmet. The motorcycle helmet manufacturers don't put the padding in because they like it, they put it in because they NEED it to meet the minimum safety standards for such helmets. And a motorcycle crash isn't that much faster than someone crashing while swooping something <100sqft.

Both of those representations are true. A full face does offer more protection and motorcycle helmets offer more protection yet. By motorcycle I mean with some type of certification, DOT, SNELL, ECE, etc. They are also allot heavier.

[Phil1111 1,149]

Thanks for that because stories with real life injuries bring focus to thinking.

[skyfox2007 22]

I had a cutaway recently and only partial control of the reserve. My slider was stuck about 4 feet above my head and so the reserve lines couldn't spread completely. My left toggle wouldn't come down past my shoulder with very sluggish turns in that direction. I still had a good amount of forward speed and was able to do a 25% flare and slide it in on the grass with only some scraps and bruises. I'm grateful for being able to walk away from it...definitely lent me some perspective

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

My slider was stuck about 4 feet above my head and so the reserve lines couldn't spread completely. My left toggle wouldn't come down past my shoulder with very sluggish turns in that direction.

Why?

Derek V

[skyfox2007 22]

Derek,
I'm not sure. I could see something just below one of my left-side slider grommets, but not well enough to make it out. This happened on a night jump. Pumping the risers for a few hundred feet did nothing to help clear it. Maybe a knot?

JD

[Hooknswoop 19]

No issues found on the reserve after landing?

Derek V

[skyfox2007 22]

Nope, but I daisy chained my lines - out of habit - and didn't realize that I probably shouldn't have done that until after I walked in.

Flight Concepts Maverick (200 sq ft). I won't be jumping this again, ever. Just ordered a new PDR 218.

-JD-