Why zero liability?

[billvon 2,991]

>I am willing to accept inherent risk but not negligence on anyones part.

Then don't jump.

>Hopefully, you wouldn't accept it either.

I do on every jump. Last year at Rantoul, a jumper, through negligence on his part, experienced an open container near the door. Other jumpers, through THEIR clear negligence, told him to go instead of containing the D-bag. The canopy deployed over the tail. It could easily have killed everyone on the plane; fortunately it did not. That's the sort of thing you have to accept if you jump.

I accept the risk that people may do such things because I organize there; I know exactly how dumb people can be. I recommend you learn from my experience and realize that such people are out there, and will be jumping with you. If you cannot accept this stop NOW before you are injured or killed!

>My interaction with the skydiving community has shown nothing but
>the utmost respect for the risks involved and have been very safety
>conscious, as they should be.

It sounds like you haven't been jumping very long. (No slam intended, but students often have that sort of view of things - which is generally accurate from _their_ perspective.)

>That is why negligence can not be tolerated, I hope anyone would agree.

Negligence IS tolerated and you WILL see it. Most people try to be pretty safe, but the longer you stay in this sport the more you will see people trading off safety for fun, convenience and training time. Again, decide now if you are OK with this.

[Fast 0]

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Please do not take up skydiving.

As sad as this statement is, I agree with it. I am sorry that you are not willing to accept that to be a part of skydiving you have to go above and beyond and accept a very high level of risk.

Skydiving is not for you.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[beowulf 1]

You should read the warning that comes with a new container or parachute. You would probably really hate that.

[jlmiracle 7]

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The problem is when you go in a comercial airliner you indeed take a chance that the plane is checked and in good running condition but you are not handed however a piece of paper from the company that says:" We are not liable even if WE WERE negligent and did not check the plane"

You should read some of the "fine print" available to you by the airlines.

As far as suing packers - can't squeeze blood out of turnip. What do you think you would get for suing a packer? Would you be able to prove that it was a bad pack job and not YOUR body position.

If you are not willing to accept responsiblity for yourself, please don't skydive.

j

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[rehmwa 2]

Devil's advocate - If a DZO 'knowingly' puts a rigs on a student with 2 or 3 broken suspension lines, and laundry in the reserve compartment, would that cross the liability line warranting getting sued? Or do we still say, "too bad, the student signed the waiver".

This newbie has zero jumps and is asking questions only, I wouldn't continue telling him to 'buzz off' just because he's not speaking the mantra. I would address the real concern - that is "does this waiver mean the staff doesn't care and won't try to do the right thing."

This question comes up frequently with tandem passengers, they don't wonder about accepting the risk, they read these waivers and wonder if it means the DZ's are requesting a license to be purposely slack and lackadaisical about safety. So not only accepting the inherent risk to the sport (very serious), but also wondering the entire time if they even care if they are hooked up correctly, etc.

In other words, they read this stuff and then forget we are human, too. And, as humans we don't want anyone getting hurt and will always do anything in reason to protect them. And, as humans, we also want to protect our income - that also means we don't take chances with our customer's safety. etc.

How does that part get communicated to the newbie without creating a legal conflict that opens us up to unreasonable legal actions. It's certainly nothing that comes in writing on a standardized form.

Daniel - if you can't trust that these people have your safety at heart:

1 - hang out and don't jump and just observe - ask questions without making the current students nervous. Get your info without being obnoxious or inadvertantly insulting to the instructor's character. Do they deserve your mistrust? If so, then don't take the course.

2 - If not, try someplace else. I won't jump somewhere where I think they aren't safe, I've left DZs for just that reason. DZOs are just people, some are decent, some aren't. If you can't find "any" DZ you trust, try another sport - it's not a big deal. there's lot of stuff out there as fun.

3 - As BV noted, some people are negligent, some mean well but make really stupid choices - and they might just be on that load or that dive with you and you won't know it until too late - so as a student, you need to be somewhere where you trust the instruction until you reach an experience level to allow you to make your own decision when someplace, or with someone, or doing something - new


Other - As for using 'golf or bowling' statements (I think only once in this thread), I think that's really belittling, who's ego is being stroked with that self serving crap? If the person is looking for a thrill and skydiving doesn't fit the bill, why belittle them with something sedate? Offer them rock climbing, motorcycling or something equivalent, why go out of your way to try and make them feel bad (other than to just boost your own self image......). And, golf and bowling are fun anyway, just not in an adrenaline way.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[LawnDart21 0]

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A limited liability for the service performed is necessary everywhere in any industry.

I wonder if Shirpa's are required to carry limited liability insurance before they can lead climbers up Mt. Everest?

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.

[justinb138 0]

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Devil's advocate - If a DZO 'knowingly' puts a rigs on a student with 2 or 3 broken suspension lines, and laundry in the reserve compartment, would that cross the liability line warranting getting sued? Or do we still say, "too bad, the student signed the waiver".

I think something like that goes from "negligence" to "homicide".

[imthegerm 0]

dear daniel-

i broke my leg and had to have surgery to recontruct my ACL to top it off in february. it would be ridiculous to try and blame anyone for MY mistakes. even if the accident wasnt my own fault, I still got on a perfectly good plane and I VOLUNTARILY hurled myself out the door towards the ground. making me ultimately responsible for anything that could or might happen. your life is in your own hands. take the responsibility happily and just go do it. you wont regret it.

Do You Trust Yourself? that is the question here.

as the old saying goes: if at first you dont succeed, skydiving is not for you...

[rehmwa 2]

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I think something like that goes from "negligence" to "homicide".

actually "negligent homocide" is the term

but I think that is 'really' the gist of these types of questions - I know I was very wordy, but wasn't that the point - as well as how to address it if we recognize it and stop just pulling back into our 'fort'?

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[NWFlyer 2]

I don't think that by making these replies, anyone is saying that we should accept negligence in the sport. But the alternative in a waiver-free (or a weaker waiver world) is not particularly conducive to skydiving operations ... at least not at a price most of us can afford. (billvon says all that much better than I do, in his posts above).

[beowulf 1]

ya know I don't really feel bad about sounding condescending when I suggest golf or bowling to someone who is worried about who is liable when or if he gets hurt skydiving. If he can't man up and take responsibility for his own choices and not look for someone else to blame for his own potential mistakes or the potential for others to make mistakes then he doesn't need to be doing such high risk sports. Anything can and will happen in skydiving. From the moment you step into the plane till you touch ground and walk safely into the hanger anything can happen. It's a choice to skydive, the danger is something that is part of that choice and needs to be understood and accepted.

[billvon 2,991]

>If a DZO 'knowingly' puts a rigs on a student with 2 or 3
>broken suspension lines, and laundry in the reserve compartment,
>would that cross the liability line warranting getting sued? Or do we
>still say, "too bad, the student signed the waiver"

In that case, I would hope that no civil lawsuit could be sustained, but that a criminal one could.

The underlying problem I have is the idea that a jumper hopes to recover money due to an accident, in hopes that the threat of such action might make them safer. The waiver is there to tell him he can't do that. If the DZ is incredibly unsafe (Sheridan comes to mind) then I'd hope we, as jumpers, boycott the place and get the word out to newer jumpers that the place is unsafe. If the DZO intentionally does things like you mention above, and the student dies, then I would hope the local prosecutor would pursue criminal charges - because he did something that could be reasonably expected to result in the death of the student.

>that is "does this waiver mean the staff doesn't care and won't try to
>do the right thing."

I don't think that's the issue here, since he states that "when I hire a packer I have only the faith in his abilities at my disposal and nothing else." He wishes not for further assurance about the packer's abilities, but rather a legal remedy as is present in other industries. Faith in a staff's abilities does not seem to be the issue.

(DM, feel free to step in and correct me if that's wrong.)

>Offer them rock climbing . . .

Actually, rock climbing (specifically bouldering or unroped soloing) on BLM land would be a decent alternative to someone with legal-liability issues; no one to sue.

[Orange1 0]

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However if , say, there is a packing error that caused the trouble( not necessarily a fatal trouble) why shouldn't the packer be liable?

Are you saying for example that a packer who packs a lineover that leads to a cutaway should be "liable"?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[NWFlyer 2]

You would be really surprised at how people try to assign blame in this sport, even if they don't actually go so far as to assign liability (in a legal or financial sense).

After describing my recent cutaway experience to someone, when I mentioned that my reserve had a bunch of line twists, that person actually said "You should talk to your rigger about that!" I think they were serious. The way I deployed my reserve, hell, I was fortunate that ALL I had were line twists. Yet this person was looking to help me assign blame to someone else.

I don't play that game.

[klingeme 1]

I think a better arguement would be compairing us to Racecar drivers. If an indy car racer was in a race and had an accident that caused someone to break their collarbone or just dent thier car, should they be able to sue?

Mark Klingelhoefer

[azureriders 0]

Why would anyone want to change our great sport of zero liability to match the accommodations that our nation affords a population full of habitual plaintiffs? Would it not make more sense to work towards changing the rest of the nation to match the greatness of our sport?

[twibbles 0]

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Why would anyone want to change our great sport of zero liability to match the accommodations that our nation affords a population full of habitual plaintiffs? Would it not make more sense to work towards changing the rest of the nation to match the greatness of our sport?

Amen to that!

Eugene

"In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of
people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."

[Programmer 0]

"A limited liability for the service performed is necessary in any industry" Not quite. This issue is not unique to skydiving. e.g. In Colorado, if you rent a horse from an outfitter and get hurt riding the horse, you can't sue the outfitter. The issue is that horses are unpredictable and he can't control the horse or the rider. If you don't know enough about horses to be comfortable on one or to decide which one you're not comfortable on, you walk. This absence of liability is what saves that industry. No outfitter in his right mind would assume the risk of being sued every time someone fell off a horse because the horse took a bad step or the rider didn't adjust the saddle right. Same holds true in skydiving. No one would run a dropzone if they could be sued any time someone made a low turn or rode a lineover too long or a lot of other things a DZ owner can't control. There are regulations, both FAA and USPA, and penalties for violations, but the bottom line is that you don't have to jump out of a plane. If you do, it is to a certain extent a leap of faith. You can learn a lot about skydiving before you actually make a jump. Visit a wind tunnel and learn to fly your body. If you have the time and money, take a rigger's course. If you have the time and want to make a little money, get a job as a packer at a dropzone. Read about it, talk to people, learn all you can, but in the end, it's your decision and your risk.

[rehmwa 2]

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ya know I don't really feel bad about sounding condescending when I suggest golf or bowling

was that you? so what's the point of it? if they want a thrill sport, then instead of belittling them, offer them something equivalent instead of retirement activities? at least they don't leave the DZ and tell all their friends about how condescending and self serving the people there are?

It's a service industry, the "stunt" mentality went out in the 70's.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

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I don't think that by making these replies, anyone is saying that we should accept negligence in the sport. But the alternative in a waiver-free (or a weaker waiver world) is not particularly conducive to skydiving operations ... at least not at a price most of us can afford. ... (moderator ass kissing)

That's not what I'm saying at all. People who are new ask questions that we just sometimes react to in rote. They "can't" get into our heads, so we have to make sure we really understand what their question is before assuming it in the most negative light. I think he's pretty clearly trying to differentiate be 'unintended carelessness and bad luck' and 'criminal negligence' and is wondering which the waiver is intended to cover.

If someone with 5 years in the sport asks this question, I answer just like you did. If a newbie asks, I take a moment and try to figure out what he's really worried about. Maybe it's the same, maybe not. I did not get the impression that Daniel is litigious, but everyone just jumped on that bandwagon right up and answered in that light.

Addressing a students concerns does not mean we eliminate our legal protections. It means we answer their concerns and take a moment to figure out what they really are before flying off the handle.

I think Billvon got it right - the waiver is protection against pointless "civil" suits in today's world. Very necessary.

Downright criminal negligence needs to be dealt with outside the civil law process.

And some people here specifically DID say have to accept 'negligence' as part of the sport. Which I agree is true - it happens in any group with this size of participants. How much negligence we accept is a personal choice that we are responsible for as individuals.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[NWFlyer 2]

I don't think we disagree.

Well, except for the part about kissing billvon's ass.

Edit to add: I think you've done a good service to newer jumpers to help them understand how to evaluate a dropzone. (And no, that's not ass-kissing). You've obviously got a lot more experience in this sport and welcoming newer jumpers than I do and have probably helped alleviate this concern a number of times.

I just get frustrated with the general trend in society (which, to some extent, as evidenced in my anecdote above, is present in our sport), to always look for someone else to blame.

[rehmwa 2]

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I just get frustrated with the general trend in society (which, to some extent, as evidenced in my anecdote above) is present in our sport, to always look for someone else to blame.

That's a nice reply - thank you

and don't we all (except for those that get rich off it)

but general trends means I have to try hard to avoid the automatical response of assuming each individual is that way. I shouldn't do that any more than I'd appreciate them doing it to me - so we take them one at a time

{I wouldn't even have posted, except we just had a lawyer make a tandem that was nervous and asked the exact same type of question - a bit of drill down showed she was really worried that the waiver gave instructors carte blanche to be careless on purpose - not just protection against civil suits. And this was a lawyer that should understand the waiver - just shows that a newbie is a newbie and all else goes to the back when they are nervous. She needed reassurance and some reality checks, not a flip/callous answer. She signed the waiver and had a great time. Most instructors do everything reasonably possible to assure the safety of students. If students don't believe that is true just because instructors are also generally decent people, then would they believe that potential criminal charges are also a great deterrent against being a slacker in the sport?}

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[beowulf 1]

It was just a suggestion. I don't see how that would limit them to just golf and bowling. I chose those because the complaint was about safety. Those are both much safer then skydiving.

[skinnyfat 0]

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Negligence IS tolerated and you WILL see it. Most people try to be pretty safe, but the longer you stay in this sport the more you will see people trading off safety for fun, convenience and training time. Again, decide now if you are OK with this.

I agree, as in everything else you do in this life, you will be surrounded by negligent people.

My comment about not tolerating negligence was intented towards instructors and staff at a DZ, not other jumpers.

Ouch! You guys are rough...

[AggieDave 6]

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My comment about not tolerating negligence was intented towards instructors and staff at a DZ, not other jumpers.

The instructors and staff at a DZ are other jumpers. There's very few jumpers who are in this sport for more then a few years that don't do something to make money at skydiving. Its how people pay for jumping. Look around at the experienced jumpers you meet at your DZ and other DZs. I mean over 1000 jumps jumpers. See if they do something to make money skydiving. See if they're in someway staff at the DZ or another DZ.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."