georgerussia 0 #51 June 14, 2006 Quote The problem is when you go in a comercial airliner you indeed take a chance that the plane is checked and in good running condition but you are not handed however a piece of paper from the company that says:" We are not liable even if WE WERE negligent and did not check the plane" Even some airlines limit their liability for passenger death - usually for something like $75,000. And some countries also limit airline liability - for several countries the maximum liability is about $19,000. Quote There must be minimal standards and regulations. The plane must be maintained , the packer must be trained and examined etc etc... There ARE standards and regulations. FAA says that the plane must be maintained, and the penalties are pretty severe. FAA certifies parachute riggers; if you concern about packer's skills, you can insist your parachute to be packed by a rigger (you may have to pay more for that), or you can pack it yourself. Quote BUT: if by some crazy reasons they are not performed there is no penalty. All we have is pure trust We trust in SKILL, not in liability. The legal liability itself does not guarantee skill - after all, we all have heard about medical malpractice. The only thing about liability is that you MAY get some compensation if something goes wrong. If this is what you're interested it - buy life and disability insurance (make sure it does not exclude skydiving), which is much easier and more reliabe than going through lawsuit. Quote I doubt that you who read my message would ride a car with me if I don't have insurance. Wrong point. If someone is a reckless driver who cannot drive safely - I would not ride a car with them no matter what insurance they have. And if someone is a skilled, safe and responsible driver - I would without any doubt.* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks 0 #52 June 14, 2006 QuoteRight now before starting AFF program and not knowing enough about this sport I still do not agree entirely with the waiver policy that is practiced at most dropzones( not all of them): the zero liability policy where you give up your rights to sue the DZ for any reasons. Now it is very clear to me that there is inherent risk that must be accepted in order to jump. However if , say, there is a packing error that caused the trouble( not necessarily a fatal trouble) why shouldn't the packer be liable? Human error is understable but that applies to the surgeon that cuts you open also. He performs much more complicated tasks than the packer yet he is liable and we all know what malpraxis means. Of course accepting the liability might mean extra indsurance costs for the packer that are passed to the jumpers but I think it is necessary. I am overconcerned about safety issues and to me that kind of waiver sends the wrong message because, to get back to my example, when I hire a packer I have only the faith in his abilities at my disposal and nothing else. A limited liability for the service performed is necessary everywhere in any industry. please please please, if I ever meet you let me know all this. I don't want to teach you anything or give you any advice or direction to help save yourself. just for the sole reason that if you do get hurt, I don't want to be liable, or have to go to court to prove that I am not. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georgerussia 0 #53 June 14, 2006 Quote Devil's advocate - If a DZO 'knowingly' puts a rigs on a student with 2 or 3 broken suspension lines, and laundry in the reserve compartment, would that cross the liability line warranting getting sued? Or do we still say, "too bad, the student signed the waiver". In such stupid case the DZO will be sued by The People (represented by District Attorney, who didn't sign any waivers), and it will be criminal lawsuit. I don't know whether FAA has power to sue - if so, there may be also civil lawsuit from FAA, not mentioning administrative actions.* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
danielmaxin 0 #54 June 14, 2006 Quote please please please, if I ever meet you let me know all this. I don't want to teach you anything or give you any advice or direction to help save yourself. just for the sole reason that if you do get hurt, I don't want to be liable, or have to go to court to prove that I am not. If I jump it means that I signed the waiver hence it means that I will not sue anybody. However since you gave me that answer, honestly I will be afraid to be taught by you. So I guess that's a load off for you if that is what you wanted. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jakee 1,489 #55 June 14, 2006 QuoteQuote please please please, if I ever meet you let me know all this. I don't want to teach you anything or give you any advice or direction to help save yourself. just for the sole reason that if you do get hurt, I don't want to be liable, or have to go to court to prove that I am not. If I jump it means that I signed the waiver hence it means that I will not sue anybody. However since you gave me that answer, honestly I will be afraid to be taught by you. So I guess that's a load off for you if that is what you wanted. Try searching for Scott Lutz, a textbook example of what these guys are afraid of. DZOs, instructors, packers etc cannot completely control what jumpers, especially students, do with the equipment that is handed to them. Often it seems that those who fuck up the worst are those who are quickest to point the finger of blame at other people. Seriously do search for Lutz, it will give you an idea of why most are against those who think there should be recourse to legal action in this sport.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,991 #56 June 14, 2006 >honestly I will be afraid to be taught by you. Add me to that list. I've taught around 1000 students to skydive (tandem, AFF and static line) but I do make mistakes. I would not want to jump with a student who could not accept that - which is why I start every FJC with a statement that you can die even if you do everything right. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites marks 0 #57 June 14, 2006 QuoteQuote please please please, if I ever meet you let me know all this. I don't want to teach you anything or give you any advice or direction to help save yourself. just for the sole reason that if you do get hurt, I don't want to be liable, or have to go to court to prove that I am not. If I jump it means that I signed the waiver hence it means that I will not sue anybody. However since you gave me that answer, honestly I will be afraid to be taught by you. So I guess that's a load off for you if that is what you wanted. your loss my brother. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #58 June 14, 2006 Bowling is fun too.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #59 June 14, 2006 Not skydiving sounds like a good option for you too.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nathaniel 0 #60 June 14, 2006 Quote I am overconcerned about safety issues and to me that kind of waiver sends the wrong message For pragmatic reasons, skydivers and skydiving outfits do not concern themselves too much with sending messages. "Sending messages" is secondary to actually doing things in this sport. Margins are slim and generally do not afford luxuries. Compare the price of your jump ticket to an airline ticket, and compare the qualities of the bench on a jump plane vs an airline seat. Skydiving outfits that intend to stay in business already have an incentive not to be negligent, this is already built into the economy. The inefficiencies of our US civil justice system outweigh the benefits they would bring. That's why you get a waiver. For an interesting read on the subject take a look at chapters 1, 3, and 4 in Lawlessness and Economics: Alternative Modes of Governance by Avinash K Dixit, Princeton University Press, 2004.My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Feeblemind 1 #61 June 14, 2006 QuoteRight now before starting AFF program and not knowing enough about this sport I still do not agree entirely with the waiver policy that is practiced at most dropzones( not all of them): the zero liability policy where you give up your rights to sue the DZ for any reasons. Now it is very clear to me that there is inherent risk that must be accepted in order to jump. However if , say, there is a packing error that caused the trouble( not necessarily a fatal trouble) why shouldn't the packer be liable? Human error is understable but that applies to the surgeon that cuts you open also. He performs much more complicated tasks than the packer yet he is liable and we all know what malpraxis means. Of course accepting the liability might mean extra indsurance costs for the packer that are passed to the jumpers but I think it is necessary. I am overconcerned about safety issues and to me that kind of waiver sends the wrong message because, to get back to my example, when I hire a packer I have only the faith in his abilities at my disposal and nothing else. A limited liability for the service performed is necessary everywhere in any industry. I am not going into any great detail here because I think the Non-tourists have explained it well, if you don't understand that part oh well. I do belive there are a few DZ's that allow you to jump that allow for the right to sue. By accepting the right to sue you jumps will be $300 per jump ticket this is not a smartass post, it was on a waiver I signed (BTW I went with the $20 dollar jump tickets ) Phil Fire Safety Tip: Don't fry bacon while naked Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DSE 5 #62 June 14, 2006 QuoteQuote please please please, if I ever meet you let me know all this. I don't want to teach you anything or give you any advice or direction to help save yourself. just for the sole reason that if you do get hurt, I don't want to be liable, or have to go to court to prove that I am not. If I jump it means that I signed the waiver hence it means that I will not sue anybody. However since you gave me that answer, honestly I will be afraid to be taught by you. So I guess that's a load off for you if that is what you wanted. Daniel, maybe this will help you...I'm an often unlucky guy. I'll probably die being stupid, asleep at the wheel, or showing off under a canopy. Like many skydivers, I ride a motorcycle (too fast), I paraglide (in inappropriate winds) I scuba dive (and don't decompress as long as I should), and I do dumb things like try to head-down fly when I don't have the correct skills I need. I used to ride buckin' horses too. And in virtually all of these extreme activities, you have to sign a blanket death waiver saying that you, and you alone are responsible for what may take place. You are responsible for the decision to put on the rig that the packer may have accidentally put the bag in upside down, closed the flaps in the wrong order, left the PC uncocked, looped the bridle the wrong way, stowed the toggles improperly, etc. He/she may have done ALL of those things, but YOU chose to put the rig on, right? YOU choose to jump from the plane wearing it. On top of that, in just over 50 rides in the past month, i've: -had a tandem cutaway on my first jump (this was due to a demonstrated packing error) -had line twists from riser to nose, slider couldn't come down for nearly 2000 feet after deployment. This *could* have been a packer, but likely was as much my lack of deceleration after being in sit-fly and not noticing altitude until I hit 4500. I was going around 140 according to my Altitrack. Either way, I didn't remember to use my hands to pull my risers until I'd been kick-twisting for nearly 1000 feet. I drove myself below the decision altitude point but recovered. I made an adult decision to stick with it for 500 feet more, because I was moving fairly slowly by then. -was hit from above by another skydiver dicking around trying to show me CRW (except I wasn't aware he was gonna do that, and it's scary when another skydiver hooks his foot into your canopy if you've never had that happen), -I witnessed a near-fatal mid-air collision between two skydivers yesterday as they were jumping a celebrity passenger and were too close to the tandem (skydiver error). Both tandem master and camera person are in serious pain, one with a slice on his neck that looks like it came out of a morgue. It's black, blue, bloody, and this guy has 10,000 jumps, 35 years in the sport, and patents in the industry. But he f@#$! up. And realized his error once he hit the ground. It's a very dangerous sport. If you can't take totlal, utter, complete, undeniable trust in yourself, in the ability of the instructor to provide you with information that you'll use to save your life in the event of a malfunction, bad wind, high speed bird flying by in your face, or jump plane failure, then you honestly should not consider moving forward at all in this sport. Packers have errors, usually causing lineovers, horseshoes, hard openings, or missing hackeys. YOU need to: watch them pack so you know they're doing the job. Learn to pack yourself so you are solely responsible trust that no one wants to kill you when you are on the ground. In the air, EVERYONE wants to kill you. Every other skydiver is your enemy. When two bodies are moving in the same airspace at 130mph, each is wary of the other. You look out for each other, but know that they care more about their own ass than they do yours in most instances. At 130 mph, if either of you screws up, chances are very good you'll be dead. Most people that are seriously injured or die in this sport do so because they forget the rules, because they are showing off, because they are attempting something new without proper prior investigation, or because they forgot to check their gear. It's not like the supermarket where you go and pick up a product and buy it without looking. You MUST learn to check out your rig, looking at everything your instructor teaches you to look for. You MUST ask a lot of questions because it's YOUR ass you're required to protect. You MUST be constantly aware of your gear, yourself, and the environment. If you're asking these questions now, then you have no trust in the people in the sport. No one wants to kill you intentionally, unless your ex-spouse works at the DZ, then maybe you've got something to worry about. If you have no trust in the people in the sport, they can't reciprocate. They won't trust you. And they'll tell you next to nothing. And you'll be in a dangerous space if you don't "get it." This is a sport that with careful planning, every precaution taken, experience remembered, and all aspects diligently checked, problems can still occur with fatal or serious consequences. It's called "shit happens." Winds can nail you, snakes bite you on landing, you might get struck by lightning, you might land on someone's pike-topped fence, you could find yourself landing in a river and drowning, your leg harness could catch part of your manhood and cause pain beyond imagination (I have personal experience with this one, still blue 3 weeks later) you could have a rental rig that has a loose leg and you didn't check it and you fall out, etc, etc. etc. Most of it boils down to you. Skydiving is mostly about two things, IMO. 1. Learning to trust yourself in the air, allowing you to be in the moment, not worrying about what happened earlier, and not what's gonna happen later today. 2. Social life with other skydivers. Learning from them, experiencing their experiences vicariously, seeing a different world through the eyes of identically crazy but well-meaning people. Daniel, I implore you...if this is the "where" you're starting from, you need to go back to GO and re-roll the dice, and skip this particular adventure. Skydiving isn't for everyone at all, and if you start off questioning the wisdom that has allowed this sport to be established, you could find yourself in the air questioning the wisdom that has allowed you to save yourself. Almost too late. You are completely in charge, the boss, the jefe, the king of the world, GOD when you're in the air between earth and exit. If you are contemplating anything outside of landing safely, then you should not be in the sport. If when the plane leaves the ground you don't have confidence in your rig and your ability to manage it, you should not be doing this. If you have second thoughts about the wisdom of throwing your body out of a plane that isn't burning or about to crash, then you should listen to that voice. I'm still very much a newbie at skydiving, but have lived most of my adult life in the sky in some form or fashion. Always, you are responsible. Just don't do it. And feel good about the fact that even if you don't complete AFF and you go on in life to be whatever you're gonna be, and whatever activity you choose, know that for even a few hours, you were among the elite daredevils of the world, and that you've already accomplished something that many people only dream about. And for the rest of your life, you'll know you've taken off in more airplanes than landed in them. Long post, but Daniel, we're talking about your life here. If you can't be totally, unerringly, and emotionally devoted to your confidence in yourself and trust in others...then you shouldn't be doing this. At least not right now. Remember, blue skies are always there, even many years down the road. I had a jump at 22 years, btw, and was scared pissless. Wondered about it for 20 years. Now I'm aggressively in the sport at age 44. Maybe your time is later. There is no shame in walking away. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Broke 0 #63 June 14, 2006 QuoteI am willing to accept inherent risk but not negligence on anyones part. Hopefully, you wouldn't accept it either. One could say that anyone who allows people to jump out of an aircraft that is airwothy at the time would be negligent. Perhaps one should sue their own parents for not teaching them to look at the big picture.Divot your source for all things Hillbilly. Anvil Brother 84 SCR 14192 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AFFI 0 #64 June 14, 2006 I was not going to post in this thread but I feel compelled to say this about post #62 in this string of communication - (http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2280132#2280132) What an incredible post! It is a long read, but well worth the time to read and I thank Douglas for taking time out of his life to compose it. The only area I wouldn’t state an opinion is concerning whether or not this person should give up skydiving as many have. I have been witness to complaints about Waivers by a few experienced skydivers and newcomers as well. Personally, I have never read a skydiving waiver; I just sign the shit like everyone else and get my ass into the air. Today I had a surgery that required they put me to sleep, I had to sign a waiver, the same one everyone else does and they won’t operate unless I sign it so I signed it and didn’t even read it, I just wanted to move forward to the relief from agony this procedure would bring. Am I a dumb-ass? Probably, the point is I don’t care about lawsuits and negligence or all that other legal “mumbo jumbo”, I just want to get into the air and know I can’t unless I sign the same paper everyone else has to sign if they want to jump, therefore I am taking full responsibility with my decision to skydive. If I were signing a different type of document like a work or purchase contract I would have my lawyer read every word, just to make certain everything is on the up and up. To me this is a different thing but to some people, they have to read everything they sign and make pragmatic decisions, and there is nothing wrong with that. Cut the origional poster some slack, he was just perhaps, taken back by such a document... You say potato, I say taters… What’s “taters” precious? Think I will sit down and read it again… Thanks Douglas!Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #65 June 14, 2006 QuoteIt was just a suggestion. my bad, the cliche is just that, a cliche that we use without thinking despite it's goofy origins when skydivers couldn't get over themselves... I got more sleep, I'm much better now. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites beowulf 1 #66 June 14, 2006 no problem, the only reason that I would even suggest other sports is that the problem that he has with the waiver suggests that if and when he did have an accident he would look around for someone to sue. That would make me very uncomfortable being around him on a skydive. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #67 June 14, 2006 Quoteno problem, the only reason that I would even suggest other sports I have no issue with suggest other sports, my point was "which" sports we suggest can really be productive or just insulting depending on the audience. You gotta admit, telling someone that wants to skydive to go golf or bowl is pretty mean. Telling them to take up a different adventure sport is less patronizing. See what I mean? I know it's harmless and just a leftover from the old days, but the new student doesn't know that at all. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites beowulf 1 #68 June 14, 2006 I suppose so. I didn't put any thought into which sports I suggested. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,027 #69 June 14, 2006 How do people feel about situations where a DZO has deliberately and knowingly violated rules in order to save money, resulting in injury or death to a skydiver? Example - using a pilot whose license has been suspended, who then crashes the plane with jumpers on board (has happened) Example - using an engine/propellor that has been declared unairworthy, installed by unlicensed mechanics, resulting in a crash (has happened).... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites beowulf 1 #70 June 14, 2006 I wouldn't jump there. Even if it were only 10 minutes away from my apartment I would go somewhere else. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites vpozzoli 0 #71 June 14, 2006 QuoteI wouldn't jump there. Even if it were only 10 minutes away from my apartment I would go somewhere else. This assumes that you knew about this beforehand. Nobody is omniscient, much less a newcomer to the sport. Let's say you find out because you are one of the injured jumpers on the plane that just crashed with an unlicensed pilot at the controls (Kallend's example). Let's say the outcome is you are paralized for life and unable to provide for yourself and your family. What would your reaction to this situation be: a) the DZO screwed up big time and this ruined my life, but I did sign the waiver so what the hell, life just happens b) sue him for all his worth, and not because of a desire for vengeance but because you need the frigging money to survive If it's option a) one could reasonably assume that this kind of unaccountabilty would actually encourage this kind of behaviour, and possibly attract lots of dishonest people to our sport. I fail to see how this could help the sport (and the public's perception of it) at all. Cheers, Valentino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites beowulf 1 #72 June 14, 2006 In that scenario I would probably sue. For someone to deliberately put my life in jeopardy just for their own gain they deserve to be sued. That kind of deliberate action is not protected by any kind of waiver. A waiver does not free the DZO from any and all rules. All of the FAA rules still apply as do every other law available. The waiver doesn't mean that the DZO can knowingly do things to put your life in added danger or risk beyond the normal skydiving. He can't go and sabotage your gear just for kicks with out any worrys. Just like he can't put a gun to your head and pull the trigger with out being charged with murder. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #73 June 14, 2006 QuoteIn that scenario I would probably sue then remind me never to coach or jump with you (just kidding) but I think vpozzoli and Kallend brought up what people are "really" asking. And we know that's not (generally) the truth. And, we know how to speak to those concerns if we choose to hear the concern and not assume immediately that the student is just a litigious wierdo. (We can find out while addressing his concerns further if he's REALLY a litigious wierdo - most people aren't though) I like your comment about criminal liability of a DZ. It's pretty much the same as mine and BVs ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skybytch 273 #74 June 14, 2006 Quotesue him for all his worth, and not because of a desire for vengeance but because you need the frigging money to survive This is assuming that the dzo has any money for you to recover. Very few dzo's have deep pockets. I think that if we are taking part in skydiving, it's up to us to take care of ourselves if shit happens. Even if that shit was caused by someone else cutting corners. It's my responsibility to assure myself that the dz I'm jumping at follows the rules. If I have a concern about an issue, I can ask about it. If I don't like the answer, I can go elsewhere. I'm not saying that I think a dzo in Kallend's example should get away with it. I'm assuming here, but I'd think there would be criminal penalties. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites beowulf 1 #75 June 14, 2006 The original post didn't specify deliberate actions. It specified errors as in "packing errors". Packers are not perfect they make mistakes. Unless a packer goes out of their way to sabotage gear they shouldn't be liable at all. Just proving that a packing error was the cause of an accident would be very diffucult. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 Next Page 3 of 6 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
jakee 1,489 #55 June 14, 2006 QuoteQuote please please please, if I ever meet you let me know all this. I don't want to teach you anything or give you any advice or direction to help save yourself. just for the sole reason that if you do get hurt, I don't want to be liable, or have to go to court to prove that I am not. If I jump it means that I signed the waiver hence it means that I will not sue anybody. However since you gave me that answer, honestly I will be afraid to be taught by you. So I guess that's a load off for you if that is what you wanted. Try searching for Scott Lutz, a textbook example of what these guys are afraid of. DZOs, instructors, packers etc cannot completely control what jumpers, especially students, do with the equipment that is handed to them. Often it seems that those who fuck up the worst are those who are quickest to point the finger of blame at other people. Seriously do search for Lutz, it will give you an idea of why most are against those who think there should be recourse to legal action in this sport.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,991 #56 June 14, 2006 >honestly I will be afraid to be taught by you. Add me to that list. I've taught around 1000 students to skydive (tandem, AFF and static line) but I do make mistakes. I would not want to jump with a student who could not accept that - which is why I start every FJC with a statement that you can die even if you do everything right. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites marks 0 #57 June 14, 2006 QuoteQuote please please please, if I ever meet you let me know all this. I don't want to teach you anything or give you any advice or direction to help save yourself. just for the sole reason that if you do get hurt, I don't want to be liable, or have to go to court to prove that I am not. If I jump it means that I signed the waiver hence it means that I will not sue anybody. However since you gave me that answer, honestly I will be afraid to be taught by you. So I guess that's a load off for you if that is what you wanted. your loss my brother. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #58 June 14, 2006 Bowling is fun too.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #59 June 14, 2006 Not skydiving sounds like a good option for you too.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nathaniel 0 #60 June 14, 2006 Quote I am overconcerned about safety issues and to me that kind of waiver sends the wrong message For pragmatic reasons, skydivers and skydiving outfits do not concern themselves too much with sending messages. "Sending messages" is secondary to actually doing things in this sport. Margins are slim and generally do not afford luxuries. Compare the price of your jump ticket to an airline ticket, and compare the qualities of the bench on a jump plane vs an airline seat. Skydiving outfits that intend to stay in business already have an incentive not to be negligent, this is already built into the economy. The inefficiencies of our US civil justice system outweigh the benefits they would bring. That's why you get a waiver. For an interesting read on the subject take a look at chapters 1, 3, and 4 in Lawlessness and Economics: Alternative Modes of Governance by Avinash K Dixit, Princeton University Press, 2004.My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Feeblemind 1 #61 June 14, 2006 QuoteRight now before starting AFF program and not knowing enough about this sport I still do not agree entirely with the waiver policy that is practiced at most dropzones( not all of them): the zero liability policy where you give up your rights to sue the DZ for any reasons. Now it is very clear to me that there is inherent risk that must be accepted in order to jump. However if , say, there is a packing error that caused the trouble( not necessarily a fatal trouble) why shouldn't the packer be liable? Human error is understable but that applies to the surgeon that cuts you open also. He performs much more complicated tasks than the packer yet he is liable and we all know what malpraxis means. Of course accepting the liability might mean extra indsurance costs for the packer that are passed to the jumpers but I think it is necessary. I am overconcerned about safety issues and to me that kind of waiver sends the wrong message because, to get back to my example, when I hire a packer I have only the faith in his abilities at my disposal and nothing else. A limited liability for the service performed is necessary everywhere in any industry. I am not going into any great detail here because I think the Non-tourists have explained it well, if you don't understand that part oh well. I do belive there are a few DZ's that allow you to jump that allow for the right to sue. By accepting the right to sue you jumps will be $300 per jump ticket this is not a smartass post, it was on a waiver I signed (BTW I went with the $20 dollar jump tickets ) Phil Fire Safety Tip: Don't fry bacon while naked Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DSE 5 #62 June 14, 2006 QuoteQuote please please please, if I ever meet you let me know all this. I don't want to teach you anything or give you any advice or direction to help save yourself. just for the sole reason that if you do get hurt, I don't want to be liable, or have to go to court to prove that I am not. If I jump it means that I signed the waiver hence it means that I will not sue anybody. However since you gave me that answer, honestly I will be afraid to be taught by you. So I guess that's a load off for you if that is what you wanted. Daniel, maybe this will help you...I'm an often unlucky guy. I'll probably die being stupid, asleep at the wheel, or showing off under a canopy. Like many skydivers, I ride a motorcycle (too fast), I paraglide (in inappropriate winds) I scuba dive (and don't decompress as long as I should), and I do dumb things like try to head-down fly when I don't have the correct skills I need. I used to ride buckin' horses too. And in virtually all of these extreme activities, you have to sign a blanket death waiver saying that you, and you alone are responsible for what may take place. You are responsible for the decision to put on the rig that the packer may have accidentally put the bag in upside down, closed the flaps in the wrong order, left the PC uncocked, looped the bridle the wrong way, stowed the toggles improperly, etc. He/she may have done ALL of those things, but YOU chose to put the rig on, right? YOU choose to jump from the plane wearing it. On top of that, in just over 50 rides in the past month, i've: -had a tandem cutaway on my first jump (this was due to a demonstrated packing error) -had line twists from riser to nose, slider couldn't come down for nearly 2000 feet after deployment. This *could* have been a packer, but likely was as much my lack of deceleration after being in sit-fly and not noticing altitude until I hit 4500. I was going around 140 according to my Altitrack. Either way, I didn't remember to use my hands to pull my risers until I'd been kick-twisting for nearly 1000 feet. I drove myself below the decision altitude point but recovered. I made an adult decision to stick with it for 500 feet more, because I was moving fairly slowly by then. -was hit from above by another skydiver dicking around trying to show me CRW (except I wasn't aware he was gonna do that, and it's scary when another skydiver hooks his foot into your canopy if you've never had that happen), -I witnessed a near-fatal mid-air collision between two skydivers yesterday as they were jumping a celebrity passenger and were too close to the tandem (skydiver error). Both tandem master and camera person are in serious pain, one with a slice on his neck that looks like it came out of a morgue. It's black, blue, bloody, and this guy has 10,000 jumps, 35 years in the sport, and patents in the industry. But he f@#$! up. And realized his error once he hit the ground. It's a very dangerous sport. If you can't take totlal, utter, complete, undeniable trust in yourself, in the ability of the instructor to provide you with information that you'll use to save your life in the event of a malfunction, bad wind, high speed bird flying by in your face, or jump plane failure, then you honestly should not consider moving forward at all in this sport. Packers have errors, usually causing lineovers, horseshoes, hard openings, or missing hackeys. YOU need to: watch them pack so you know they're doing the job. Learn to pack yourself so you are solely responsible trust that no one wants to kill you when you are on the ground. In the air, EVERYONE wants to kill you. Every other skydiver is your enemy. When two bodies are moving in the same airspace at 130mph, each is wary of the other. You look out for each other, but know that they care more about their own ass than they do yours in most instances. At 130 mph, if either of you screws up, chances are very good you'll be dead. Most people that are seriously injured or die in this sport do so because they forget the rules, because they are showing off, because they are attempting something new without proper prior investigation, or because they forgot to check their gear. It's not like the supermarket where you go and pick up a product and buy it without looking. You MUST learn to check out your rig, looking at everything your instructor teaches you to look for. You MUST ask a lot of questions because it's YOUR ass you're required to protect. You MUST be constantly aware of your gear, yourself, and the environment. If you're asking these questions now, then you have no trust in the people in the sport. No one wants to kill you intentionally, unless your ex-spouse works at the DZ, then maybe you've got something to worry about. If you have no trust in the people in the sport, they can't reciprocate. They won't trust you. And they'll tell you next to nothing. And you'll be in a dangerous space if you don't "get it." This is a sport that with careful planning, every precaution taken, experience remembered, and all aspects diligently checked, problems can still occur with fatal or serious consequences. It's called "shit happens." Winds can nail you, snakes bite you on landing, you might get struck by lightning, you might land on someone's pike-topped fence, you could find yourself landing in a river and drowning, your leg harness could catch part of your manhood and cause pain beyond imagination (I have personal experience with this one, still blue 3 weeks later) you could have a rental rig that has a loose leg and you didn't check it and you fall out, etc, etc. etc. Most of it boils down to you. Skydiving is mostly about two things, IMO. 1. Learning to trust yourself in the air, allowing you to be in the moment, not worrying about what happened earlier, and not what's gonna happen later today. 2. Social life with other skydivers. Learning from them, experiencing their experiences vicariously, seeing a different world through the eyes of identically crazy but well-meaning people. Daniel, I implore you...if this is the "where" you're starting from, you need to go back to GO and re-roll the dice, and skip this particular adventure. Skydiving isn't for everyone at all, and if you start off questioning the wisdom that has allowed this sport to be established, you could find yourself in the air questioning the wisdom that has allowed you to save yourself. Almost too late. You are completely in charge, the boss, the jefe, the king of the world, GOD when you're in the air between earth and exit. If you are contemplating anything outside of landing safely, then you should not be in the sport. If when the plane leaves the ground you don't have confidence in your rig and your ability to manage it, you should not be doing this. If you have second thoughts about the wisdom of throwing your body out of a plane that isn't burning or about to crash, then you should listen to that voice. I'm still very much a newbie at skydiving, but have lived most of my adult life in the sky in some form or fashion. Always, you are responsible. Just don't do it. And feel good about the fact that even if you don't complete AFF and you go on in life to be whatever you're gonna be, and whatever activity you choose, know that for even a few hours, you were among the elite daredevils of the world, and that you've already accomplished something that many people only dream about. And for the rest of your life, you'll know you've taken off in more airplanes than landed in them. Long post, but Daniel, we're talking about your life here. If you can't be totally, unerringly, and emotionally devoted to your confidence in yourself and trust in others...then you shouldn't be doing this. At least not right now. Remember, blue skies are always there, even many years down the road. I had a jump at 22 years, btw, and was scared pissless. Wondered about it for 20 years. Now I'm aggressively in the sport at age 44. Maybe your time is later. There is no shame in walking away. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Broke 0 #63 June 14, 2006 QuoteI am willing to accept inherent risk but not negligence on anyones part. Hopefully, you wouldn't accept it either. One could say that anyone who allows people to jump out of an aircraft that is airwothy at the time would be negligent. Perhaps one should sue their own parents for not teaching them to look at the big picture.Divot your source for all things Hillbilly. Anvil Brother 84 SCR 14192 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AFFI 0 #64 June 14, 2006 I was not going to post in this thread but I feel compelled to say this about post #62 in this string of communication - (http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2280132#2280132) What an incredible post! It is a long read, but well worth the time to read and I thank Douglas for taking time out of his life to compose it. The only area I wouldn’t state an opinion is concerning whether or not this person should give up skydiving as many have. I have been witness to complaints about Waivers by a few experienced skydivers and newcomers as well. Personally, I have never read a skydiving waiver; I just sign the shit like everyone else and get my ass into the air. Today I had a surgery that required they put me to sleep, I had to sign a waiver, the same one everyone else does and they won’t operate unless I sign it so I signed it and didn’t even read it, I just wanted to move forward to the relief from agony this procedure would bring. Am I a dumb-ass? Probably, the point is I don’t care about lawsuits and negligence or all that other legal “mumbo jumbo”, I just want to get into the air and know I can’t unless I sign the same paper everyone else has to sign if they want to jump, therefore I am taking full responsibility with my decision to skydive. If I were signing a different type of document like a work or purchase contract I would have my lawyer read every word, just to make certain everything is on the up and up. To me this is a different thing but to some people, they have to read everything they sign and make pragmatic decisions, and there is nothing wrong with that. Cut the origional poster some slack, he was just perhaps, taken back by such a document... You say potato, I say taters… What’s “taters” precious? Think I will sit down and read it again… Thanks Douglas!Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #65 June 14, 2006 QuoteIt was just a suggestion. my bad, the cliche is just that, a cliche that we use without thinking despite it's goofy origins when skydivers couldn't get over themselves... I got more sleep, I'm much better now. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites beowulf 1 #66 June 14, 2006 no problem, the only reason that I would even suggest other sports is that the problem that he has with the waiver suggests that if and when he did have an accident he would look around for someone to sue. That would make me very uncomfortable being around him on a skydive. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #67 June 14, 2006 Quoteno problem, the only reason that I would even suggest other sports I have no issue with suggest other sports, my point was "which" sports we suggest can really be productive or just insulting depending on the audience. You gotta admit, telling someone that wants to skydive to go golf or bowl is pretty mean. Telling them to take up a different adventure sport is less patronizing. See what I mean? I know it's harmless and just a leftover from the old days, but the new student doesn't know that at all. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites beowulf 1 #68 June 14, 2006 I suppose so. I didn't put any thought into which sports I suggested. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,027 #69 June 14, 2006 How do people feel about situations where a DZO has deliberately and knowingly violated rules in order to save money, resulting in injury or death to a skydiver? Example - using a pilot whose license has been suspended, who then crashes the plane with jumpers on board (has happened) Example - using an engine/propellor that has been declared unairworthy, installed by unlicensed mechanics, resulting in a crash (has happened).... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites beowulf 1 #70 June 14, 2006 I wouldn't jump there. Even if it were only 10 minutes away from my apartment I would go somewhere else. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites vpozzoli 0 #71 June 14, 2006 QuoteI wouldn't jump there. Even if it were only 10 minutes away from my apartment I would go somewhere else. This assumes that you knew about this beforehand. Nobody is omniscient, much less a newcomer to the sport. Let's say you find out because you are one of the injured jumpers on the plane that just crashed with an unlicensed pilot at the controls (Kallend's example). Let's say the outcome is you are paralized for life and unable to provide for yourself and your family. What would your reaction to this situation be: a) the DZO screwed up big time and this ruined my life, but I did sign the waiver so what the hell, life just happens b) sue him for all his worth, and not because of a desire for vengeance but because you need the frigging money to survive If it's option a) one could reasonably assume that this kind of unaccountabilty would actually encourage this kind of behaviour, and possibly attract lots of dishonest people to our sport. I fail to see how this could help the sport (and the public's perception of it) at all. Cheers, Valentino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites beowulf 1 #72 June 14, 2006 In that scenario I would probably sue. For someone to deliberately put my life in jeopardy just for their own gain they deserve to be sued. That kind of deliberate action is not protected by any kind of waiver. A waiver does not free the DZO from any and all rules. All of the FAA rules still apply as do every other law available. The waiver doesn't mean that the DZO can knowingly do things to put your life in added danger or risk beyond the normal skydiving. He can't go and sabotage your gear just for kicks with out any worrys. Just like he can't put a gun to your head and pull the trigger with out being charged with murder. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #73 June 14, 2006 QuoteIn that scenario I would probably sue then remind me never to coach or jump with you (just kidding) but I think vpozzoli and Kallend brought up what people are "really" asking. And we know that's not (generally) the truth. And, we know how to speak to those concerns if we choose to hear the concern and not assume immediately that the student is just a litigious wierdo. (We can find out while addressing his concerns further if he's REALLY a litigious wierdo - most people aren't though) I like your comment about criminal liability of a DZ. It's pretty much the same as mine and BVs ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skybytch 273 #74 June 14, 2006 Quotesue him for all his worth, and not because of a desire for vengeance but because you need the frigging money to survive This is assuming that the dzo has any money for you to recover. Very few dzo's have deep pockets. I think that if we are taking part in skydiving, it's up to us to take care of ourselves if shit happens. Even if that shit was caused by someone else cutting corners. It's my responsibility to assure myself that the dz I'm jumping at follows the rules. If I have a concern about an issue, I can ask about it. If I don't like the answer, I can go elsewhere. I'm not saying that I think a dzo in Kallend's example should get away with it. I'm assuming here, but I'd think there would be criminal penalties. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites beowulf 1 #75 June 14, 2006 The original post didn't specify deliberate actions. It specified errors as in "packing errors". Packers are not perfect they make mistakes. Unless a packer goes out of their way to sabotage gear they shouldn't be liable at all. Just proving that a packing error was the cause of an accident would be very diffucult. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 Next Page 3 of 6 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
billvon 2,991 #56 June 14, 2006 >honestly I will be afraid to be taught by you. Add me to that list. I've taught around 1000 students to skydive (tandem, AFF and static line) but I do make mistakes. I would not want to jump with a student who could not accept that - which is why I start every FJC with a statement that you can die even if you do everything right. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks 0 #57 June 14, 2006 QuoteQuote please please please, if I ever meet you let me know all this. I don't want to teach you anything or give you any advice or direction to help save yourself. just for the sole reason that if you do get hurt, I don't want to be liable, or have to go to court to prove that I am not. If I jump it means that I signed the waiver hence it means that I will not sue anybody. However since you gave me that answer, honestly I will be afraid to be taught by you. So I guess that's a load off for you if that is what you wanted. your loss my brother. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #58 June 14, 2006 Bowling is fun too.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #59 June 14, 2006 Not skydiving sounds like a good option for you too.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nathaniel 0 #60 June 14, 2006 Quote I am overconcerned about safety issues and to me that kind of waiver sends the wrong message For pragmatic reasons, skydivers and skydiving outfits do not concern themselves too much with sending messages. "Sending messages" is secondary to actually doing things in this sport. Margins are slim and generally do not afford luxuries. Compare the price of your jump ticket to an airline ticket, and compare the qualities of the bench on a jump plane vs an airline seat. Skydiving outfits that intend to stay in business already have an incentive not to be negligent, this is already built into the economy. The inefficiencies of our US civil justice system outweigh the benefits they would bring. That's why you get a waiver. For an interesting read on the subject take a look at chapters 1, 3, and 4 in Lawlessness and Economics: Alternative Modes of Governance by Avinash K Dixit, Princeton University Press, 2004.My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Feeblemind 1 #61 June 14, 2006 QuoteRight now before starting AFF program and not knowing enough about this sport I still do not agree entirely with the waiver policy that is practiced at most dropzones( not all of them): the zero liability policy where you give up your rights to sue the DZ for any reasons. Now it is very clear to me that there is inherent risk that must be accepted in order to jump. However if , say, there is a packing error that caused the trouble( not necessarily a fatal trouble) why shouldn't the packer be liable? Human error is understable but that applies to the surgeon that cuts you open also. He performs much more complicated tasks than the packer yet he is liable and we all know what malpraxis means. Of course accepting the liability might mean extra indsurance costs for the packer that are passed to the jumpers but I think it is necessary. I am overconcerned about safety issues and to me that kind of waiver sends the wrong message because, to get back to my example, when I hire a packer I have only the faith in his abilities at my disposal and nothing else. A limited liability for the service performed is necessary everywhere in any industry. I am not going into any great detail here because I think the Non-tourists have explained it well, if you don't understand that part oh well. I do belive there are a few DZ's that allow you to jump that allow for the right to sue. By accepting the right to sue you jumps will be $300 per jump ticket this is not a smartass post, it was on a waiver I signed (BTW I went with the $20 dollar jump tickets ) Phil Fire Safety Tip: Don't fry bacon while naked Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DSE 5 #62 June 14, 2006 QuoteQuote please please please, if I ever meet you let me know all this. I don't want to teach you anything or give you any advice or direction to help save yourself. just for the sole reason that if you do get hurt, I don't want to be liable, or have to go to court to prove that I am not. If I jump it means that I signed the waiver hence it means that I will not sue anybody. However since you gave me that answer, honestly I will be afraid to be taught by you. So I guess that's a load off for you if that is what you wanted. Daniel, maybe this will help you...I'm an often unlucky guy. I'll probably die being stupid, asleep at the wheel, or showing off under a canopy. Like many skydivers, I ride a motorcycle (too fast), I paraglide (in inappropriate winds) I scuba dive (and don't decompress as long as I should), and I do dumb things like try to head-down fly when I don't have the correct skills I need. I used to ride buckin' horses too. And in virtually all of these extreme activities, you have to sign a blanket death waiver saying that you, and you alone are responsible for what may take place. You are responsible for the decision to put on the rig that the packer may have accidentally put the bag in upside down, closed the flaps in the wrong order, left the PC uncocked, looped the bridle the wrong way, stowed the toggles improperly, etc. He/she may have done ALL of those things, but YOU chose to put the rig on, right? YOU choose to jump from the plane wearing it. On top of that, in just over 50 rides in the past month, i've: -had a tandem cutaway on my first jump (this was due to a demonstrated packing error) -had line twists from riser to nose, slider couldn't come down for nearly 2000 feet after deployment. This *could* have been a packer, but likely was as much my lack of deceleration after being in sit-fly and not noticing altitude until I hit 4500. I was going around 140 according to my Altitrack. Either way, I didn't remember to use my hands to pull my risers until I'd been kick-twisting for nearly 1000 feet. I drove myself below the decision altitude point but recovered. I made an adult decision to stick with it for 500 feet more, because I was moving fairly slowly by then. -was hit from above by another skydiver dicking around trying to show me CRW (except I wasn't aware he was gonna do that, and it's scary when another skydiver hooks his foot into your canopy if you've never had that happen), -I witnessed a near-fatal mid-air collision between two skydivers yesterday as they were jumping a celebrity passenger and were too close to the tandem (skydiver error). Both tandem master and camera person are in serious pain, one with a slice on his neck that looks like it came out of a morgue. It's black, blue, bloody, and this guy has 10,000 jumps, 35 years in the sport, and patents in the industry. But he f@#$! up. And realized his error once he hit the ground. It's a very dangerous sport. If you can't take totlal, utter, complete, undeniable trust in yourself, in the ability of the instructor to provide you with information that you'll use to save your life in the event of a malfunction, bad wind, high speed bird flying by in your face, or jump plane failure, then you honestly should not consider moving forward at all in this sport. Packers have errors, usually causing lineovers, horseshoes, hard openings, or missing hackeys. YOU need to: watch them pack so you know they're doing the job. Learn to pack yourself so you are solely responsible trust that no one wants to kill you when you are on the ground. In the air, EVERYONE wants to kill you. Every other skydiver is your enemy. When two bodies are moving in the same airspace at 130mph, each is wary of the other. You look out for each other, but know that they care more about their own ass than they do yours in most instances. At 130 mph, if either of you screws up, chances are very good you'll be dead. Most people that are seriously injured or die in this sport do so because they forget the rules, because they are showing off, because they are attempting something new without proper prior investigation, or because they forgot to check their gear. It's not like the supermarket where you go and pick up a product and buy it without looking. You MUST learn to check out your rig, looking at everything your instructor teaches you to look for. You MUST ask a lot of questions because it's YOUR ass you're required to protect. You MUST be constantly aware of your gear, yourself, and the environment. If you're asking these questions now, then you have no trust in the people in the sport. No one wants to kill you intentionally, unless your ex-spouse works at the DZ, then maybe you've got something to worry about. If you have no trust in the people in the sport, they can't reciprocate. They won't trust you. And they'll tell you next to nothing. And you'll be in a dangerous space if you don't "get it." This is a sport that with careful planning, every precaution taken, experience remembered, and all aspects diligently checked, problems can still occur with fatal or serious consequences. It's called "shit happens." Winds can nail you, snakes bite you on landing, you might get struck by lightning, you might land on someone's pike-topped fence, you could find yourself landing in a river and drowning, your leg harness could catch part of your manhood and cause pain beyond imagination (I have personal experience with this one, still blue 3 weeks later) you could have a rental rig that has a loose leg and you didn't check it and you fall out, etc, etc. etc. Most of it boils down to you. Skydiving is mostly about two things, IMO. 1. Learning to trust yourself in the air, allowing you to be in the moment, not worrying about what happened earlier, and not what's gonna happen later today. 2. Social life with other skydivers. Learning from them, experiencing their experiences vicariously, seeing a different world through the eyes of identically crazy but well-meaning people. Daniel, I implore you...if this is the "where" you're starting from, you need to go back to GO and re-roll the dice, and skip this particular adventure. Skydiving isn't for everyone at all, and if you start off questioning the wisdom that has allowed this sport to be established, you could find yourself in the air questioning the wisdom that has allowed you to save yourself. Almost too late. You are completely in charge, the boss, the jefe, the king of the world, GOD when you're in the air between earth and exit. If you are contemplating anything outside of landing safely, then you should not be in the sport. If when the plane leaves the ground you don't have confidence in your rig and your ability to manage it, you should not be doing this. If you have second thoughts about the wisdom of throwing your body out of a plane that isn't burning or about to crash, then you should listen to that voice. I'm still very much a newbie at skydiving, but have lived most of my adult life in the sky in some form or fashion. Always, you are responsible. Just don't do it. And feel good about the fact that even if you don't complete AFF and you go on in life to be whatever you're gonna be, and whatever activity you choose, know that for even a few hours, you were among the elite daredevils of the world, and that you've already accomplished something that many people only dream about. And for the rest of your life, you'll know you've taken off in more airplanes than landed in them. Long post, but Daniel, we're talking about your life here. If you can't be totally, unerringly, and emotionally devoted to your confidence in yourself and trust in others...then you shouldn't be doing this. At least not right now. Remember, blue skies are always there, even many years down the road. I had a jump at 22 years, btw, and was scared pissless. Wondered about it for 20 years. Now I'm aggressively in the sport at age 44. Maybe your time is later. There is no shame in walking away. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Broke 0 #63 June 14, 2006 QuoteI am willing to accept inherent risk but not negligence on anyones part. Hopefully, you wouldn't accept it either. One could say that anyone who allows people to jump out of an aircraft that is airwothy at the time would be negligent. Perhaps one should sue their own parents for not teaching them to look at the big picture.Divot your source for all things Hillbilly. Anvil Brother 84 SCR 14192 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AFFI 0 #64 June 14, 2006 I was not going to post in this thread but I feel compelled to say this about post #62 in this string of communication - (http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2280132#2280132) What an incredible post! It is a long read, but well worth the time to read and I thank Douglas for taking time out of his life to compose it. The only area I wouldn’t state an opinion is concerning whether or not this person should give up skydiving as many have. I have been witness to complaints about Waivers by a few experienced skydivers and newcomers as well. Personally, I have never read a skydiving waiver; I just sign the shit like everyone else and get my ass into the air. Today I had a surgery that required they put me to sleep, I had to sign a waiver, the same one everyone else does and they won’t operate unless I sign it so I signed it and didn’t even read it, I just wanted to move forward to the relief from agony this procedure would bring. Am I a dumb-ass? Probably, the point is I don’t care about lawsuits and negligence or all that other legal “mumbo jumbo”, I just want to get into the air and know I can’t unless I sign the same paper everyone else has to sign if they want to jump, therefore I am taking full responsibility with my decision to skydive. If I were signing a different type of document like a work or purchase contract I would have my lawyer read every word, just to make certain everything is on the up and up. To me this is a different thing but to some people, they have to read everything they sign and make pragmatic decisions, and there is nothing wrong with that. Cut the origional poster some slack, he was just perhaps, taken back by such a document... You say potato, I say taters… What’s “taters” precious? Think I will sit down and read it again… Thanks Douglas!Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #65 June 14, 2006 QuoteIt was just a suggestion. my bad, the cliche is just that, a cliche that we use without thinking despite it's goofy origins when skydivers couldn't get over themselves... I got more sleep, I'm much better now. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites beowulf 1 #66 June 14, 2006 no problem, the only reason that I would even suggest other sports is that the problem that he has with the waiver suggests that if and when he did have an accident he would look around for someone to sue. That would make me very uncomfortable being around him on a skydive. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #67 June 14, 2006 Quoteno problem, the only reason that I would even suggest other sports I have no issue with suggest other sports, my point was "which" sports we suggest can really be productive or just insulting depending on the audience. You gotta admit, telling someone that wants to skydive to go golf or bowl is pretty mean. Telling them to take up a different adventure sport is less patronizing. See what I mean? I know it's harmless and just a leftover from the old days, but the new student doesn't know that at all. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites beowulf 1 #68 June 14, 2006 I suppose so. I didn't put any thought into which sports I suggested. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,027 #69 June 14, 2006 How do people feel about situations where a DZO has deliberately and knowingly violated rules in order to save money, resulting in injury or death to a skydiver? Example - using a pilot whose license has been suspended, who then crashes the plane with jumpers on board (has happened) Example - using an engine/propellor that has been declared unairworthy, installed by unlicensed mechanics, resulting in a crash (has happened).... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites beowulf 1 #70 June 14, 2006 I wouldn't jump there. Even if it were only 10 minutes away from my apartment I would go somewhere else. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites vpozzoli 0 #71 June 14, 2006 QuoteI wouldn't jump there. Even if it were only 10 minutes away from my apartment I would go somewhere else. This assumes that you knew about this beforehand. Nobody is omniscient, much less a newcomer to the sport. Let's say you find out because you are one of the injured jumpers on the plane that just crashed with an unlicensed pilot at the controls (Kallend's example). Let's say the outcome is you are paralized for life and unable to provide for yourself and your family. What would your reaction to this situation be: a) the DZO screwed up big time and this ruined my life, but I did sign the waiver so what the hell, life just happens b) sue him for all his worth, and not because of a desire for vengeance but because you need the frigging money to survive If it's option a) one could reasonably assume that this kind of unaccountabilty would actually encourage this kind of behaviour, and possibly attract lots of dishonest people to our sport. I fail to see how this could help the sport (and the public's perception of it) at all. Cheers, Valentino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites beowulf 1 #72 June 14, 2006 In that scenario I would probably sue. For someone to deliberately put my life in jeopardy just for their own gain they deserve to be sued. That kind of deliberate action is not protected by any kind of waiver. A waiver does not free the DZO from any and all rules. All of the FAA rules still apply as do every other law available. The waiver doesn't mean that the DZO can knowingly do things to put your life in added danger or risk beyond the normal skydiving. He can't go and sabotage your gear just for kicks with out any worrys. Just like he can't put a gun to your head and pull the trigger with out being charged with murder. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #73 June 14, 2006 QuoteIn that scenario I would probably sue then remind me never to coach or jump with you (just kidding) but I think vpozzoli and Kallend brought up what people are "really" asking. And we know that's not (generally) the truth. And, we know how to speak to those concerns if we choose to hear the concern and not assume immediately that the student is just a litigious wierdo. (We can find out while addressing his concerns further if he's REALLY a litigious wierdo - most people aren't though) I like your comment about criminal liability of a DZ. It's pretty much the same as mine and BVs ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skybytch 273 #74 June 14, 2006 Quotesue him for all his worth, and not because of a desire for vengeance but because you need the frigging money to survive This is assuming that the dzo has any money for you to recover. Very few dzo's have deep pockets. I think that if we are taking part in skydiving, it's up to us to take care of ourselves if shit happens. Even if that shit was caused by someone else cutting corners. It's my responsibility to assure myself that the dz I'm jumping at follows the rules. If I have a concern about an issue, I can ask about it. If I don't like the answer, I can go elsewhere. I'm not saying that I think a dzo in Kallend's example should get away with it. I'm assuming here, but I'd think there would be criminal penalties. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites beowulf 1 #75 June 14, 2006 The original post didn't specify deliberate actions. It specified errors as in "packing errors". Packers are not perfect they make mistakes. Unless a packer goes out of their way to sabotage gear they shouldn't be liable at all. Just proving that a packing error was the cause of an accident would be very diffucult. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 Next Page 3 of 6 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
diablopilot 2 #58 June 14, 2006 Bowling is fun too.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #59 June 14, 2006 Not skydiving sounds like a good option for you too.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nathaniel 0 #60 June 14, 2006 Quote I am overconcerned about safety issues and to me that kind of waiver sends the wrong message For pragmatic reasons, skydivers and skydiving outfits do not concern themselves too much with sending messages. "Sending messages" is secondary to actually doing things in this sport. Margins are slim and generally do not afford luxuries. Compare the price of your jump ticket to an airline ticket, and compare the qualities of the bench on a jump plane vs an airline seat. Skydiving outfits that intend to stay in business already have an incentive not to be negligent, this is already built into the economy. The inefficiencies of our US civil justice system outweigh the benefits they would bring. That's why you get a waiver. For an interesting read on the subject take a look at chapters 1, 3, and 4 in Lawlessness and Economics: Alternative Modes of Governance by Avinash K Dixit, Princeton University Press, 2004.My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Feeblemind 1 #61 June 14, 2006 QuoteRight now before starting AFF program and not knowing enough about this sport I still do not agree entirely with the waiver policy that is practiced at most dropzones( not all of them): the zero liability policy where you give up your rights to sue the DZ for any reasons. Now it is very clear to me that there is inherent risk that must be accepted in order to jump. However if , say, there is a packing error that caused the trouble( not necessarily a fatal trouble) why shouldn't the packer be liable? Human error is understable but that applies to the surgeon that cuts you open also. He performs much more complicated tasks than the packer yet he is liable and we all know what malpraxis means. Of course accepting the liability might mean extra indsurance costs for the packer that are passed to the jumpers but I think it is necessary. I am overconcerned about safety issues and to me that kind of waiver sends the wrong message because, to get back to my example, when I hire a packer I have only the faith in his abilities at my disposal and nothing else. A limited liability for the service performed is necessary everywhere in any industry. I am not going into any great detail here because I think the Non-tourists have explained it well, if you don't understand that part oh well. I do belive there are a few DZ's that allow you to jump that allow for the right to sue. By accepting the right to sue you jumps will be $300 per jump ticket this is not a smartass post, it was on a waiver I signed (BTW I went with the $20 dollar jump tickets ) Phil Fire Safety Tip: Don't fry bacon while naked Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 5 #62 June 14, 2006 QuoteQuote please please please, if I ever meet you let me know all this. I don't want to teach you anything or give you any advice or direction to help save yourself. just for the sole reason that if you do get hurt, I don't want to be liable, or have to go to court to prove that I am not. If I jump it means that I signed the waiver hence it means that I will not sue anybody. However since you gave me that answer, honestly I will be afraid to be taught by you. So I guess that's a load off for you if that is what you wanted. Daniel, maybe this will help you...I'm an often unlucky guy. I'll probably die being stupid, asleep at the wheel, or showing off under a canopy. Like many skydivers, I ride a motorcycle (too fast), I paraglide (in inappropriate winds) I scuba dive (and don't decompress as long as I should), and I do dumb things like try to head-down fly when I don't have the correct skills I need. I used to ride buckin' horses too. And in virtually all of these extreme activities, you have to sign a blanket death waiver saying that you, and you alone are responsible for what may take place. You are responsible for the decision to put on the rig that the packer may have accidentally put the bag in upside down, closed the flaps in the wrong order, left the PC uncocked, looped the bridle the wrong way, stowed the toggles improperly, etc. He/she may have done ALL of those things, but YOU chose to put the rig on, right? YOU choose to jump from the plane wearing it. On top of that, in just over 50 rides in the past month, i've: -had a tandem cutaway on my first jump (this was due to a demonstrated packing error) -had line twists from riser to nose, slider couldn't come down for nearly 2000 feet after deployment. This *could* have been a packer, but likely was as much my lack of deceleration after being in sit-fly and not noticing altitude until I hit 4500. I was going around 140 according to my Altitrack. Either way, I didn't remember to use my hands to pull my risers until I'd been kick-twisting for nearly 1000 feet. I drove myself below the decision altitude point but recovered. I made an adult decision to stick with it for 500 feet more, because I was moving fairly slowly by then. -was hit from above by another skydiver dicking around trying to show me CRW (except I wasn't aware he was gonna do that, and it's scary when another skydiver hooks his foot into your canopy if you've never had that happen), -I witnessed a near-fatal mid-air collision between two skydivers yesterday as they were jumping a celebrity passenger and were too close to the tandem (skydiver error). Both tandem master and camera person are in serious pain, one with a slice on his neck that looks like it came out of a morgue. It's black, blue, bloody, and this guy has 10,000 jumps, 35 years in the sport, and patents in the industry. But he f@#$! up. And realized his error once he hit the ground. It's a very dangerous sport. If you can't take totlal, utter, complete, undeniable trust in yourself, in the ability of the instructor to provide you with information that you'll use to save your life in the event of a malfunction, bad wind, high speed bird flying by in your face, or jump plane failure, then you honestly should not consider moving forward at all in this sport. Packers have errors, usually causing lineovers, horseshoes, hard openings, or missing hackeys. YOU need to: watch them pack so you know they're doing the job. Learn to pack yourself so you are solely responsible trust that no one wants to kill you when you are on the ground. In the air, EVERYONE wants to kill you. Every other skydiver is your enemy. When two bodies are moving in the same airspace at 130mph, each is wary of the other. You look out for each other, but know that they care more about their own ass than they do yours in most instances. At 130 mph, if either of you screws up, chances are very good you'll be dead. Most people that are seriously injured or die in this sport do so because they forget the rules, because they are showing off, because they are attempting something new without proper prior investigation, or because they forgot to check their gear. It's not like the supermarket where you go and pick up a product and buy it without looking. You MUST learn to check out your rig, looking at everything your instructor teaches you to look for. You MUST ask a lot of questions because it's YOUR ass you're required to protect. You MUST be constantly aware of your gear, yourself, and the environment. If you're asking these questions now, then you have no trust in the people in the sport. No one wants to kill you intentionally, unless your ex-spouse works at the DZ, then maybe you've got something to worry about. If you have no trust in the people in the sport, they can't reciprocate. They won't trust you. And they'll tell you next to nothing. And you'll be in a dangerous space if you don't "get it." This is a sport that with careful planning, every precaution taken, experience remembered, and all aspects diligently checked, problems can still occur with fatal or serious consequences. It's called "shit happens." Winds can nail you, snakes bite you on landing, you might get struck by lightning, you might land on someone's pike-topped fence, you could find yourself landing in a river and drowning, your leg harness could catch part of your manhood and cause pain beyond imagination (I have personal experience with this one, still blue 3 weeks later) you could have a rental rig that has a loose leg and you didn't check it and you fall out, etc, etc. etc. Most of it boils down to you. Skydiving is mostly about two things, IMO. 1. Learning to trust yourself in the air, allowing you to be in the moment, not worrying about what happened earlier, and not what's gonna happen later today. 2. Social life with other skydivers. Learning from them, experiencing their experiences vicariously, seeing a different world through the eyes of identically crazy but well-meaning people. Daniel, I implore you...if this is the "where" you're starting from, you need to go back to GO and re-roll the dice, and skip this particular adventure. Skydiving isn't for everyone at all, and if you start off questioning the wisdom that has allowed this sport to be established, you could find yourself in the air questioning the wisdom that has allowed you to save yourself. Almost too late. You are completely in charge, the boss, the jefe, the king of the world, GOD when you're in the air between earth and exit. If you are contemplating anything outside of landing safely, then you should not be in the sport. If when the plane leaves the ground you don't have confidence in your rig and your ability to manage it, you should not be doing this. If you have second thoughts about the wisdom of throwing your body out of a plane that isn't burning or about to crash, then you should listen to that voice. I'm still very much a newbie at skydiving, but have lived most of my adult life in the sky in some form or fashion. Always, you are responsible. Just don't do it. And feel good about the fact that even if you don't complete AFF and you go on in life to be whatever you're gonna be, and whatever activity you choose, know that for even a few hours, you were among the elite daredevils of the world, and that you've already accomplished something that many people only dream about. And for the rest of your life, you'll know you've taken off in more airplanes than landed in them. Long post, but Daniel, we're talking about your life here. If you can't be totally, unerringly, and emotionally devoted to your confidence in yourself and trust in others...then you shouldn't be doing this. At least not right now. Remember, blue skies are always there, even many years down the road. I had a jump at 22 years, btw, and was scared pissless. Wondered about it for 20 years. Now I'm aggressively in the sport at age 44. Maybe your time is later. There is no shame in walking away. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Broke 0 #63 June 14, 2006 QuoteI am willing to accept inherent risk but not negligence on anyones part. Hopefully, you wouldn't accept it either. One could say that anyone who allows people to jump out of an aircraft that is airwothy at the time would be negligent. Perhaps one should sue their own parents for not teaching them to look at the big picture.Divot your source for all things Hillbilly. Anvil Brother 84 SCR 14192 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AFFI 0 #64 June 14, 2006 I was not going to post in this thread but I feel compelled to say this about post #62 in this string of communication - (http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2280132#2280132) What an incredible post! It is a long read, but well worth the time to read and I thank Douglas for taking time out of his life to compose it. The only area I wouldn’t state an opinion is concerning whether or not this person should give up skydiving as many have. I have been witness to complaints about Waivers by a few experienced skydivers and newcomers as well. Personally, I have never read a skydiving waiver; I just sign the shit like everyone else and get my ass into the air. Today I had a surgery that required they put me to sleep, I had to sign a waiver, the same one everyone else does and they won’t operate unless I sign it so I signed it and didn’t even read it, I just wanted to move forward to the relief from agony this procedure would bring. Am I a dumb-ass? Probably, the point is I don’t care about lawsuits and negligence or all that other legal “mumbo jumbo”, I just want to get into the air and know I can’t unless I sign the same paper everyone else has to sign if they want to jump, therefore I am taking full responsibility with my decision to skydive. If I were signing a different type of document like a work or purchase contract I would have my lawyer read every word, just to make certain everything is on the up and up. To me this is a different thing but to some people, they have to read everything they sign and make pragmatic decisions, and there is nothing wrong with that. Cut the origional poster some slack, he was just perhaps, taken back by such a document... You say potato, I say taters… What’s “taters” precious? Think I will sit down and read it again… Thanks Douglas!Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #65 June 14, 2006 QuoteIt was just a suggestion. my bad, the cliche is just that, a cliche that we use without thinking despite it's goofy origins when skydivers couldn't get over themselves... I got more sleep, I'm much better now. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites beowulf 1 #66 June 14, 2006 no problem, the only reason that I would even suggest other sports is that the problem that he has with the waiver suggests that if and when he did have an accident he would look around for someone to sue. That would make me very uncomfortable being around him on a skydive. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #67 June 14, 2006 Quoteno problem, the only reason that I would even suggest other sports I have no issue with suggest other sports, my point was "which" sports we suggest can really be productive or just insulting depending on the audience. You gotta admit, telling someone that wants to skydive to go golf or bowl is pretty mean. Telling them to take up a different adventure sport is less patronizing. See what I mean? I know it's harmless and just a leftover from the old days, but the new student doesn't know that at all. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites beowulf 1 #68 June 14, 2006 I suppose so. I didn't put any thought into which sports I suggested. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,027 #69 June 14, 2006 How do people feel about situations where a DZO has deliberately and knowingly violated rules in order to save money, resulting in injury or death to a skydiver? Example - using a pilot whose license has been suspended, who then crashes the plane with jumpers on board (has happened) Example - using an engine/propellor that has been declared unairworthy, installed by unlicensed mechanics, resulting in a crash (has happened).... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites beowulf 1 #70 June 14, 2006 I wouldn't jump there. Even if it were only 10 minutes away from my apartment I would go somewhere else. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites vpozzoli 0 #71 June 14, 2006 QuoteI wouldn't jump there. Even if it were only 10 minutes away from my apartment I would go somewhere else. This assumes that you knew about this beforehand. Nobody is omniscient, much less a newcomer to the sport. Let's say you find out because you are one of the injured jumpers on the plane that just crashed with an unlicensed pilot at the controls (Kallend's example). Let's say the outcome is you are paralized for life and unable to provide for yourself and your family. What would your reaction to this situation be: a) the DZO screwed up big time and this ruined my life, but I did sign the waiver so what the hell, life just happens b) sue him for all his worth, and not because of a desire for vengeance but because you need the frigging money to survive If it's option a) one could reasonably assume that this kind of unaccountabilty would actually encourage this kind of behaviour, and possibly attract lots of dishonest people to our sport. I fail to see how this could help the sport (and the public's perception of it) at all. Cheers, Valentino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites beowulf 1 #72 June 14, 2006 In that scenario I would probably sue. For someone to deliberately put my life in jeopardy just for their own gain they deserve to be sued. That kind of deliberate action is not protected by any kind of waiver. A waiver does not free the DZO from any and all rules. All of the FAA rules still apply as do every other law available. The waiver doesn't mean that the DZO can knowingly do things to put your life in added danger or risk beyond the normal skydiving. He can't go and sabotage your gear just for kicks with out any worrys. Just like he can't put a gun to your head and pull the trigger with out being charged with murder. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #73 June 14, 2006 QuoteIn that scenario I would probably sue then remind me never to coach or jump with you (just kidding) but I think vpozzoli and Kallend brought up what people are "really" asking. And we know that's not (generally) the truth. And, we know how to speak to those concerns if we choose to hear the concern and not assume immediately that the student is just a litigious wierdo. (We can find out while addressing his concerns further if he's REALLY a litigious wierdo - most people aren't though) I like your comment about criminal liability of a DZ. It's pretty much the same as mine and BVs ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skybytch 273 #74 June 14, 2006 Quotesue him for all his worth, and not because of a desire for vengeance but because you need the frigging money to survive This is assuming that the dzo has any money for you to recover. Very few dzo's have deep pockets. I think that if we are taking part in skydiving, it's up to us to take care of ourselves if shit happens. Even if that shit was caused by someone else cutting corners. It's my responsibility to assure myself that the dz I'm jumping at follows the rules. If I have a concern about an issue, I can ask about it. If I don't like the answer, I can go elsewhere. I'm not saying that I think a dzo in Kallend's example should get away with it. I'm assuming here, but I'd think there would be criminal penalties. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites beowulf 1 #75 June 14, 2006 The original post didn't specify deliberate actions. It specified errors as in "packing errors". Packers are not perfect they make mistakes. Unless a packer goes out of their way to sabotage gear they shouldn't be liable at all. Just proving that a packing error was the cause of an accident would be very diffucult. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 Next Page 3 of 6 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
Broke 0 #63 June 14, 2006 QuoteI am willing to accept inherent risk but not negligence on anyones part. Hopefully, you wouldn't accept it either. One could say that anyone who allows people to jump out of an aircraft that is airwothy at the time would be negligent. Perhaps one should sue their own parents for not teaching them to look at the big picture.Divot your source for all things Hillbilly. Anvil Brother 84 SCR 14192 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #64 June 14, 2006 I was not going to post in this thread but I feel compelled to say this about post #62 in this string of communication - (http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2280132#2280132) What an incredible post! It is a long read, but well worth the time to read and I thank Douglas for taking time out of his life to compose it. The only area I wouldn’t state an opinion is concerning whether or not this person should give up skydiving as many have. I have been witness to complaints about Waivers by a few experienced skydivers and newcomers as well. Personally, I have never read a skydiving waiver; I just sign the shit like everyone else and get my ass into the air. Today I had a surgery that required they put me to sleep, I had to sign a waiver, the same one everyone else does and they won’t operate unless I sign it so I signed it and didn’t even read it, I just wanted to move forward to the relief from agony this procedure would bring. Am I a dumb-ass? Probably, the point is I don’t care about lawsuits and negligence or all that other legal “mumbo jumbo”, I just want to get into the air and know I can’t unless I sign the same paper everyone else has to sign if they want to jump, therefore I am taking full responsibility with my decision to skydive. If I were signing a different type of document like a work or purchase contract I would have my lawyer read every word, just to make certain everything is on the up and up. To me this is a different thing but to some people, they have to read everything they sign and make pragmatic decisions, and there is nothing wrong with that. Cut the origional poster some slack, he was just perhaps, taken back by such a document... You say potato, I say taters… What’s “taters” precious? Think I will sit down and read it again… Thanks Douglas!Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #65 June 14, 2006 QuoteIt was just a suggestion. my bad, the cliche is just that, a cliche that we use without thinking despite it's goofy origins when skydivers couldn't get over themselves... I got more sleep, I'm much better now. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #66 June 14, 2006 no problem, the only reason that I would even suggest other sports is that the problem that he has with the waiver suggests that if and when he did have an accident he would look around for someone to sue. That would make me very uncomfortable being around him on a skydive. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #67 June 14, 2006 Quoteno problem, the only reason that I would even suggest other sports I have no issue with suggest other sports, my point was "which" sports we suggest can really be productive or just insulting depending on the audience. You gotta admit, telling someone that wants to skydive to go golf or bowl is pretty mean. Telling them to take up a different adventure sport is less patronizing. See what I mean? I know it's harmless and just a leftover from the old days, but the new student doesn't know that at all. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #68 June 14, 2006 I suppose so. I didn't put any thought into which sports I suggested. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #69 June 14, 2006 How do people feel about situations where a DZO has deliberately and knowingly violated rules in order to save money, resulting in injury or death to a skydiver? Example - using a pilot whose license has been suspended, who then crashes the plane with jumpers on board (has happened) Example - using an engine/propellor that has been declared unairworthy, installed by unlicensed mechanics, resulting in a crash (has happened).... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #70 June 14, 2006 I wouldn't jump there. Even if it were only 10 minutes away from my apartment I would go somewhere else. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vpozzoli 0 #71 June 14, 2006 QuoteI wouldn't jump there. Even if it were only 10 minutes away from my apartment I would go somewhere else. This assumes that you knew about this beforehand. Nobody is omniscient, much less a newcomer to the sport. Let's say you find out because you are one of the injured jumpers on the plane that just crashed with an unlicensed pilot at the controls (Kallend's example). Let's say the outcome is you are paralized for life and unable to provide for yourself and your family. What would your reaction to this situation be: a) the DZO screwed up big time and this ruined my life, but I did sign the waiver so what the hell, life just happens b) sue him for all his worth, and not because of a desire for vengeance but because you need the frigging money to survive If it's option a) one could reasonably assume that this kind of unaccountabilty would actually encourage this kind of behaviour, and possibly attract lots of dishonest people to our sport. I fail to see how this could help the sport (and the public's perception of it) at all. Cheers, Valentino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #72 June 14, 2006 In that scenario I would probably sue. For someone to deliberately put my life in jeopardy just for their own gain they deserve to be sued. That kind of deliberate action is not protected by any kind of waiver. A waiver does not free the DZO from any and all rules. All of the FAA rules still apply as do every other law available. The waiver doesn't mean that the DZO can knowingly do things to put your life in added danger or risk beyond the normal skydiving. He can't go and sabotage your gear just for kicks with out any worrys. Just like he can't put a gun to your head and pull the trigger with out being charged with murder. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #73 June 14, 2006 QuoteIn that scenario I would probably sue then remind me never to coach or jump with you (just kidding) but I think vpozzoli and Kallend brought up what people are "really" asking. And we know that's not (generally) the truth. And, we know how to speak to those concerns if we choose to hear the concern and not assume immediately that the student is just a litigious wierdo. (We can find out while addressing his concerns further if he's REALLY a litigious wierdo - most people aren't though) I like your comment about criminal liability of a DZ. It's pretty much the same as mine and BVs ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #74 June 14, 2006 Quotesue him for all his worth, and not because of a desire for vengeance but because you need the frigging money to survive This is assuming that the dzo has any money for you to recover. Very few dzo's have deep pockets. I think that if we are taking part in skydiving, it's up to us to take care of ourselves if shit happens. Even if that shit was caused by someone else cutting corners. It's my responsibility to assure myself that the dz I'm jumping at follows the rules. If I have a concern about an issue, I can ask about it. If I don't like the answer, I can go elsewhere. I'm not saying that I think a dzo in Kallend's example should get away with it. I'm assuming here, but I'd think there would be criminal penalties. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #75 June 14, 2006 The original post didn't specify deliberate actions. It specified errors as in "packing errors". Packers are not perfect they make mistakes. Unless a packer goes out of their way to sabotage gear they shouldn't be liable at all. Just proving that a packing error was the cause of an accident would be very diffucult. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
