Why zero liability?

[georgerussia 0]

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Exactly...and it sucks, welcome to the USA.

It is not USA-specific; you can file a civil lawsuit (following some simple rules) against almost everyone, using almost any possible subject. Sure, in most cases the judge will dismiss the case as soon as he sees it, but it can be done.

It is much better in USA. Assuming that the person, who would spend a lot of time and money filing this lawsuit against someone riding a bike, is kinda crazy, in Russia the same person would just pick up the baseball bat, and beat someone riding a bike to death...

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[lisamariewillbe 1]

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Thats it, I am gonna sue McDonalds cuz my ass looks like it was slapped with a waffle iron!

Do you look at your ass? I thought only girls checked their own asses out

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[skinnyfat 0]

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Thats it, I am gonna sue McDonalds cuz my ass looks like it was slapped with a waffle iron!

Funny you should say that, its been done. An obese guy sued the parent company of several fast food chains a few years ago stating it was their fault that he was FAT!!

He lost of course, but they still had to pay to defend themselves against his horseshit complaint. Not a big deal for Fast Food giants but might be for a small DZ...

[dorbie 0]

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Right now before starting AFF program and not knowing enough about this sport I still do not agree entirely with the waiver policy that is practiced at most dropzones( not all of them): the zero liability policy where you give up your rights to sue the DZ for any reasons.
Now it is very clear to me that there is inherent risk that must be accepted in order to jump. However if , say, there is a packing error that caused the trouble( not necessarily a fatal trouble) why shouldn't the packer be liable?
Human error is understable but that applies to the surgeon that cuts you open also. He performs much more complicated tasks than the packer yet he is liable and we all know what malpraxis means.
Of course accepting the liability might mean extra indsurance costs for the packer that are passed to the jumpers but I think it is necessary.
I am overconcerned about safety issues and to me that kind of waiver sends the wrong message because, to get back to my example, when I hire a packer I have only the faith in his abilities at my disposal and nothing else. A limited liability for the service performed is necessary everywhere in any industry.

Because packing errors happen and they can kill you.

If you don't understand this then you shouldn't be jumping.

Packers make errors, infrequently sure but frequently enough that it's a legitimate concern, at the end of the day they're not avoidabe because packers are human. You're responsible for saving your ass if and when that happens.

In addition, even when there's no error the court system lets anyone sue to try and establish that there was an error and 12 people chosen for their lack of knowledge of the sport will make the final determination.

Human error can kill you, in fact if you die skydiving it could very likely be the cause, get it? If you don't like that don't jump, there's always bowling.

[AFFI 0]

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Because packing errors happen and they can kill you.

Most often, not really the packing errors that will kill but rather a lack of preparation in dealing with EP's.

If a packer's malfunction is a result at deployment time, and mistakes are made in properly dealing with the malfunction then the only person to blame is the jumper for not being better prepared to deal with the situation.

When I put a rig on a go skydive, I am the responsible party, no one else.

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[dorbie 0]

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Because packing errors happen and they can kill you.

Most often, not really the packing errors that will kill but rather a lack of preparation in dealing with EP's.

If a packer's malfunction is a result at deployment time, and mistakes are made in properly dealing with the malfunction then the only person to blame is the jumper for not being better prepared to deal with the situation.

When I put a rig on a go skydive, I am the responsible party, no one else.

Yup but a jury of 12 whuffos get to see the packing error as a mistake that precipitated the whole event, and even some idiots who skydive think this way.

The waiver helps protect against these types and many others.

[kelpdiver 2]

if it wasn't previously addressed, "packing errors" can equate to 'dropping a shoulder at throw out time.' If the original guy is still here, he should understand a lot of malfunctions can't be clearly attributed to the packer.

[winsor 236]

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Right now before starting AFF program and not knowing enough about this sport

The policy is to weed out people whose level of personal responsibility is insufficient for an environment with such high stakes.

I applaud your observation that this sport does not meet the criteria you deem necessary, and hope you enjoy whatever hobby you find that meets these standards.

Bowling comes to mind, but there are other things that are just as much fun.


Blue skies, black death,

Winsor

[danielmaxin 0]

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Bowling comes to mind, but there are other things that are just as much fun.***

like reading ironic bulshit remarks on this thread ( with few exceptions). Come to think of it, it may be healthier to skydive

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[Quake120 0]

I think unless you can prove that somebody maliciously and intentionally cut your lines or intentionally just shoved your main and reserve into the container with the intention to kill you, you are pretty much out of luck when it comes to suing anybody for anythin when it comes to skydiving. It is your responsibility to also check your gear for any obvious problems.

Even if you could absolutely prove that it was negligence on somebody's part, YOU are the one that threw yourself out of the airplane. That was YOUR choice. Nobody forced you to.

Yes, it would suck if you got injured or killed, but... that is part of this sport. Jumping out of airplanes is not safe.

If you are walking across the street and somebody who is not paying attention (talking on their cell phone is a likely reason...) slams into you going 40 mph and breaks your legs, you COULD sue them for negligence and have a pretty good chance of winning. It WAS your choice to walk across the street in this case, which carries certain risks too, BUT in this case, you didn't sign a waiver beforehand releasing any drivers from liability.

If I am injured skydiving, I'll just have to suck it up and deal with it.
Injury and death are very real risks in this sport... Remember, you and everybody else can do everything right and you can still die.

[johnie 0]

Crazy people flinging themselves out of airplanes is just proposturous! Crazy people looking to get compensation for being injured Thats just priceless,No No really the won't give you any price you ask for, Personally i like the whole being responsible for myself thing with the waiver! Otherwise I'd be out of control ! Sort of like these people driving with their heads up their ass's cause they know they have insurance.You want to see a really SAFE driver its the guy with no insurance holding everyone up in traffic doing the speed limit.

No matter where you Go!"there you are"!

[itllclear 1]

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The attached document is a draft of an enclosure to my last will and testament that specifically addresses skydiving

The only thing you could have added was "Any heir or beneficiary of my estate who takes any action against any skydiving related entity as a result of my death shall not receive ANYTHING from my estate."

Or something like that.

As to using the unlicensed pilot, unairworthy airplane, etc, if that can be proven the local district attorney may likely make life miserable for the criminal.

BSBD You pays your money, you takes your chances!

"Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there."

"Your statement answered your question."

[dorbie 0]

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if it wasn't previously addressed, "packing errors" can equate to 'dropping a shoulder at throw out time.' If the original guy is still here, he should understand a lot of malfunctions can't be clearly attributed to the packer.

Yup, it's great if you can persuade 12 whuffos of that. There will be an 'expert' with the opposite opinion w.r.t. your incident on their side. Meanwhile they get to sit and stare at a weeping widow and will hear about the fatherless kids at home.

It's not even about packing per se. It's about everything in skydiving. There's a total waiver because it's essential to protect people and force jumpers to regognize and assume the liability for the risks THEY choose to take. If you skydive you might die, you should start that process understanding that it is YOUR decision to assume the risk, people aren't gonna try to kill you but humans are fallible and you HAVE to recognize that everyone around you from the packer to you could fuck up and kill you. People die all the time in skydiving because of fuckups, usually their own but often enough there's a potential contribution from someone else. If you don't like the odds go take up bowling, but when you get on the plane, when you walk towards the aircraft YOU'RE taking a risk of death and injury and that includes all the potential fuckups that might do you in.

It is an inherently dangerous sport, statistically it might not be as risky as most people think but when when shit goes wrong gravity and the ground are inevitable and you're relying on a piece of cloth stuffed in a sack by a human to save your life. You'll never meet a rich packer, but it's not even the packer that will be footing the bill, it'll be the DZ owner and all of us.

On one level the waiver protects the DZ on the other it protects the sport and allows us all to jump in the face of peopel who want to jump out a plane then blame someone else if anything bad stems from that as it it was a fucking surprise that snuck up on them.

[livendive 8]

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It does not matter what paperwork you sign, what the waiver says, in any activity (not just skydiving) you can sue them if you can show negligence on their part.

Absolutely! Of course a separate part of the waiver is your agreement that either you or your estate will pay all legal expenses of and judgements against the sued parties, and probably pay them an extra $50,000 or so for their trouble, regardless of who wins the suit.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[mjosparky 4]

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know I am not a skydiver per-se (yet - hopefully) but I do know one thing - It does not matter what paperwork you sign, what the waiver says, in any activity (not just skydiving) you can sue them if you can show negligence on their part.

Are you a lawyer yet or are you just guessing?

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[skinnyfat 0]

Not a lawyer, I'm actually insulted at that accusation - just kidding
Again, to all my flamers, I am simply stating a fact, not stating that I believe it is the right thing to do. I certainly do not for frivilous reasons. I DO accept that my life is MY RESPONSIBILITY when skydiving and I can accept that.

A few posters have stated that everyone wants to put blame on someone in this country anymore for anything, and I agree. I am one who believes in personal responsibility and think its horseshit any other way. BUT THERE ARE OTHER OUT THERE WHO DO NOT.

In billvon's reply to a previous posting of mine verified my exact statement by quoting case law...

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(Hulsey v. Elsinore Parachute Center (1985) 168 Cal.App.3d 333)

The fact that this is in case law shows that it happened, Elsinore got sued, I'm sure Hulsey lost but the fact remians, someone DID sue them if the case law exists, and I would be surprised if it was free to defend it.

Peace.

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[georgerussia 0]

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The fact that this is in case law shows that it happened, Elsinore got sued, I'm sure Hulsey lost but the fact remians, someone DID sue them

Anyone can file a lawsuit agains anyone for whatever reason, and the waiver does not help right here. It will help later, so the judge will dismiss the case, but the judge still has to see it, introduced as defendand evidence during the lawsuit.

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if the case law exists, and I would be surprised if it was free to defend it.

Did you actually READ the case? It is available online on FindLaw (free registration required). Here are some quotes:

As a consequence, the trial court was concerned generally with only two issues of law. One is whether the agreement and release of liability signed by plaintiff at the time of the instructional preparation for his first parachute jump is enforceable against him. The other is whether sport parachuting is an extra-hazardous activity such as precludes the effectiveness of the release. In our view, the trial court correctly ruled that the release is enforceable and that parachute jumping is not the kind of activity which precludes the valid use of the release procedure followed here by defendant.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[mjosparky 4]

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The fact that this is in case law shows that it happened,

If I am not mistaken, the fact that it is case law shows that the decision was upheld on appeal

Hulsey lost on all 4 points that he claimed in his suit.

In pursuing his appeal, plaintiff makes four substantive contentions. They are that: (1) on the undisputed factual scenario there was no clear and comprehensive notice to plaintiff of what the legal consequences of the release would be; (2) such releases are against public policy; (3) the release is unenforceable because unconscionable in that it did not comport with plaintiff's reasonable expectations; and (4) parachute jumping is an ultrahazardous activity

Number 3 deals with the "for injury or damage resulting from the negligence” statement in the waiver.

The court held that "this section does not invalidate contracts which seek to except one from liability for simple negligence or strict liability"

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My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Andy9o8 2]

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a separate part of the waiver is your agreement that either you or your estate will pay all legal expenses of and judgements against the sued parties, and probably pay them an extra $50,000 or so for their trouble, regardless of who wins the suit.

Actually, that's the one part of the waiver that does not hold up. It happened to Crosskeys a couple years ago. A jumper got hurt & sued Crosskeys. Crosskeys counter-claimed against the jumper for its costs & attorney's fees. The judge upheld the waiver and on that basis tossed the suit out, but held that the fee-shifting provision was going too far, so didn't award Crosskeys its fees.

My own attitude: unless the DZO does something to deliberately try to kill you, part of the inherent risk of the sport is that there's a very low tolerance and high consequence for error, and that includes the chance that someone around you might goof something up. If you're not willing to assume that risk, then please remain in the spectator's area, thank you.

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[basejumper1 0]

At our DZ, there is a sign posted "that skydiving and just being here is dangerous." I believe that it states... "if you cannot accept these risks then please leave."

Let's not forget that the spectator area can be very dangerous too. Just being at the DZ can get you killed. There is a whole slew of potential lawsuits waiting to happen. Ever see a jumper take out a spectator? How bout the day a "no-pull" takes out grandma? Or when little Johnny witnesses a "low-hook" fatality?

It's a real shame!

[aftermid 0]

Take up BASE instead there's no waiver to sign so you can sue anybody you want.

[jasonRose 0]

I didn't spend much time reading through this thread so this might of been said a bunch already.

YOU CAN DIE IN SKYDIVING!!!

YOU TAKE THAT RISK IT IS NOT FORCED ON YOU!!!!

IF YOU DON"T LIKE IT DON'T JUMP PLEASE!!!!!

Not trying to be harsh on ya but skydiving is what it is and it ain't for everyone. Choice is yours and if decided to stick with the sport be safe and remember you can DIE!!

Some day I will have the best staff in the world!!!

[kallend 2,027]

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I didn't spend much time reading through this thread so this might of been said a bunch already.

YOU CAN DIE IN SKYDIVING!!!

YOU TAKE THAT RISK IT IS NOT FORCED ON YOU!!!!

IF YOU DON"T LIKE IT DON'T JUMP PLEASE!!!!!

Not trying to be harsh on ya but skydiving is what it is and it ain't for everyone. Choice is yours and if decided to stick with the sport be safe and remember you can DIE!!

True, but the risks you assume do NOT have to include the risk that the DZO is deliberately flouting FAA regulations on aircraft maintenance and operations, or pilot qualifications. These are risks that are totally avoidable.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rehmwa 2]

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YOU CAN DIE IN SKYDIVING!!!
YOU TAKE THAT RISK IT IS NOT FORCED ON YOU!!!!
IF YOU DON"T LIKE IT DON'T JUMP PLEASE!!!!!

writing in all caps doesn't alleviate that this simplistic position (based on a misread of the intent of the original post) has already been beaten completely to death in this thread

no one has yet denied that it is truth, but in the end, a real non sequitor to original topic

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[micro 0]

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I didn't spend much time reading through this thread so this might of been said a bunch already.

YOU CAN DIE IN SKYDIVING!!!

YOU TAKE THAT RISK IT IS NOT FORCED ON YOU!!!!

IF YOU DON"T LIKE IT DON'T JUMP PLEASE!!!!!

Not trying to be harsh on ya but skydiving is what it is and it ain't for everyone. Choice is yours and if decided to stick with the sport be safe and remember you can DIE!!

True, but the risks you assume do NOT have to include the risk that the DZO is deliberately flouting FAA regulations on aircraft maintenance and operations, or pilot qualifications. These are risks that are totally avoidable.

Kallend makes a good point. When one signs the waiver, does he or she expressly state that they are promising to not sue if something happens to them, even if it's due to something like what Kallend is suggesting?

It reminds me of the Twin Bo crash at Tennessee Skydiving Center in, what was is, 1996 or 97? If I remember correctly, the NTSB faulted Chris Martin over faulty maintenance. (I'm going off of memory here, so forgive me if I'm making a mistake). One of the victims in the crash sued and IIRC, was awarded a nice chunck. Don't know if she got anything, but still...

Doesn't this point out what some others have said already, that if negligence can be proven that the waiver really doesn't mean shit?

Note to potential flamers: This post does not reflect any personal opinion on the matter of waivers, personal responsibility or love of bowling.

I miss Lee.
And JP.
And Chris. And...