Antoine64 0 #1 October 23, 2017 In my example I'll talk to Hk ( sail) vs HKT My question is: let's say someone continues to jump an HK past 4-500 jumps, is it going to perform less than the HKT after the sail starts to be too old ? ( sorry for my bad english) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sswain 0 #2 October 24, 2017 In other posts I've read, they speak to the sail used in NZ/PD as having a coating that will eventually flake off. There is a post titled 'Valkyrie Hybrid' that talks a bit about it. With FT-30, the material is impregnated and is supposed to last longer... as I understand. Would be nice to have the manufactures 'ball park' the lifecycle of the material (obviously subject to conditions where canopy is jumped). 3k for a canopy that last 500-600 jumps is a lot without a trade-in program :) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Alexg3265 0 #3 October 24, 2017 The sail we use on the HK is not FT-30. Its traditional stiff sail. The FT-30 is somewhere between traditional sail and ZP. It's stiffer than ZP and lasts much longer than sail does. Regular sail will break down and lose significant performance somewhere between 300-700 jumps depending on how its treated/environment ect... Those #'s are very subjective. The HKT is ZP top and bottoms with FT-30 internals and will outperform an hk with significant jumps on it, but when new, the HK will perform better not accounting for the slightly different characteristics.. They are very very similar wings, but there are slight differences..I was that kid jumping out if his tree house with a bed sheet. My dad wouldn't let me use the ladder to try the roof... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Antoine64 0 #4 October 25, 2017 Thanks, that awnsers my question. So basically what do people do with their old sail canopy? Sell it for cheap, give them back to the company ? Also, you work at flyid wings ? I Got an air wolf with top skin in FT-30. (Love that canopy) Cool material you guys developed. If someone asks for an HKT with the same hybrid configuration than the airwolf would it be possible? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skow 6 #5 October 26, 2017 Alexg3265 Regular sail will break down and lose significant performance somewhere between 300-700 jumps depending on how its treated/environment ect... What are the numbers for FT-30? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Alexg3265 0 #6 October 27, 2017 We have a prototype HKT thats all FT-30 and that or similar hybrid options may be available in the future... Different fabrics can change flight characteristics and handling ect, so a lot of times there are small tweaks to get it flying the same once switching materials.... The lifespan as we've seen with the FT-30 is almost comparable to ZP... We've made pilot chutes and all kinds of high wear stuff out of it and even had someone jumping an all ft-30 helix for over 1000 jumps and it was still stiffer than ZP and wearing very well... its really cool stuff...I was that kid jumping out if his tree house with a bed sheet. My dad wouldn't let me use the ladder to try the roof... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Alexg3265 0 #7 October 27, 2017 sswain In other posts I've read, they speak to the sail used in NZ/PD as having a coating that will eventually flake off. There is a post titled 'Valkyrie Hybrid' that talks a bit about it. With FT-30, the material is impregnated and is supposed to last longer... as I understand. Would be nice to have the manufactures 'ball park' the lifecycle of the material (obviously subject to conditions where canopy is jumped). 3k for a canopy that last 500-600 jumps is a lot without a trade-in program :) Most competition wings are closer to 4k.... which over a parachutes lifespan, lets say a normal zp parachute may cost on average 1$ a jump if treated well and a competition swoop machine will cost 10$ or more per jump based on initial cost, relines, ect divided by expected number of jumps. Nobody goes and buys an F1 car and complains about the price or having to rebuild the engine every race.... You a buying a very specific specialized machine for a very specific purpose.. To squeeze every last ounce of performance out of it, to hell with the cost. The HK, Petra, and Peregrine are that. They are not made to be an every day fun jumping kind of recreational wing. They are finely tuned high maintenance machines... Hence why we made the HKT, which is almost the same wing as the HK, but made with more durable and longer lasting materials, at the expense of performance... Oh and some manufacturers will sometimes take them in trade in and give some credit. Once they are worn out, they are done and should be retiredI was that kid jumping out if his tree house with a bed sheet. My dad wouldn't let me use the ladder to try the roof... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflyit 0 #8 April 23, 2018 Hey man, got 2 questions for you. 1. Will sail ribs on a hybrid valkyrie just loose the coating and become just like a normal Valkyrie? If so I guess this process would be accelerated...like quicker than 300 jumps? 2. What is the best way to store/keep full sail wings? Keeping it loose in a garbage bag? Thanks Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Alexg3265 0 #9 May 18, 2018 The sail will degrade past the rigidity of zp and almost to the softness of f111. so it will settle out and perform worse after the first 500 jumps. This has been my experience with sail. The best way to store sail wings would be like a paraglider. Lay it out on its top skin, and accordion fold the tips into the center and repeat on the other side until its the width of the center cell. then gently fold/roll from the tail. I prefer clear rubbermaid bins. far superior to garbage bags...I was that kid jumping out if his tree house with a bed sheet. My dad wouldn't let me use the ladder to try the roof... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflyit 0 #10 May 22, 2018 Thanks for the response. This is quite interesting, I don’t remember PD saying anything like this. I’ll have to put it to the test. My hybrid valk has approx 200-250 jumps now and the ribs are not showing any sign of deterioration. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Alexg3265 0 #11 May 22, 2018 ask them the expected life of a peregrine.... If theyll even answer that. Youll start noticing lighter tones around the folds and eventually flaking off of the coating... at which point its comparable to f111 porosity and stiffness wise. This is all assuming that its the same single side PU-coated Sail they've been using.. Keep an eye on it and see and let us know....I was that kid jumping out if his tree house with a bed sheet. My dad wouldn't let me use the ladder to try the roof... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflyit 0 #12 May 24, 2018 Funny enough, I did ask. The coating of sail doesn’t go away, it will always be more rigid than ZP. Also note that ZP gets softer as time goes on but the coating on it doesn’t flake away. I’m not flying a peregrine, but I do have a petra with approx 350 jumps on it and there is no ‘flaking’. However, getting back to hybrid valkyries, the hybrid will always outperform regular zp. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jiggs 0 #13 May 25, 2018 I have two Petras (different sizes). My 67 has something like 1000 jumps on it and is pretty clapped. It has had a very hard life, jumps on sand and very abrasive landing areas, it has patches and is a lovely grey colour (desert white). I can confirm that it definitely performing worse than when it was new. I can't get the same recovery I used to get it and it feels like it stops flying a little sooner. On the plus side it is even better for XRW The material itself does not show any signs of flaking I have also had 3 other sail canopies, two jvxs (79s that I owned at the same time) and an experimental wing that did not go into production, they were all built with different versions of sail. One only lasted 300-400 jumps before it was very clapped out. The first generation sail canopies were probably the longest lasting, it lasted more than 1k jumps with no real change in performance - but was ridiculous in size (and weight). The new sail is pretty awesome (all things considered)."Don't blame malice for what stupidity can explain." "In our sleep, pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart and in our despair, against our will comes wisdom" - Aeschylus Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cmulli4 0 #14 July 1, 2018 I have about 450 jumps on one of my Petra’s. At the end of the day it will always be better than ZP. It’s my go-to canopy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skow 6 #15 July 23, 2018 Jiggs I have two Petras (different sizes). My 67 has something like 1000 jumps on it and is pretty clapped. How about the other one? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jiggs 0 #16 August 17, 2018 77 has 300ish It similar is like brand new, but it has not be trashed like the 67"Don't blame malice for what stupidity can explain." "In our sleep, pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart and in our despair, against our will comes wisdom" - Aeschylus Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
