rehmwa 2 #26 June 27, 2006 Quote[The other person who drowed was wearing a weight vest. Weight vests - 1 - uncomfortable 2 - puts the weight WAY too high on the body for good flying 3 - uncomfortable 4 - too hard to maintain and build 5 - uncomfortable, and now 6 - next to impossible to get off over water belts people....(I also like the concept of having some of the weight sewn into the rig) ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,998 #27 June 27, 2006 >belts people.... Belts are good, but some female jumpers really benefit from having the weight up higher. >I also like the concept of having some of the weight sewn into the rig Although this has the problem of not being able to shed it quite as easily before landing in water. A good compromise here are mudflap weights, which both get the weight higher and are easier to remove if necessary. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #28 June 27, 2006 Quote>Belts are good, but some female jumpers really benefit from having the weight up higher. I have a hard time with any concept that adds weight 'away' from the natural CG (waist). That's why belts make so much sense. A vest will automatically force you head low which sucks - even for someone extremely bottom heavy. If they are getting a benefit, I wonder if they've had a good camp on body position....... This is all about RW, of course. Though I understand that for FF, it's better to fly it out and wear the right suit fit than muck with lead, anyway. however, if it works for them - those women I know that think vests are better have all have very poor body position in the sky due to the vest - they just don't realize it or admit it. Video is good that way. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,998 #29 June 27, 2006 >A vest will automatically force you head low which sucks . . . But for some women, it will get their arms out in front of them, which is good. Depends on their weight distribution. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #30 June 27, 2006 QuoteAlthough this has the problem of not being able to shed it quite as easily before landing in water I would think it is even easier to ditch...You only have to ditch the rig. Lets face it, how many people will have the presence of mind when getting ready to land in water to remember to ditch the weights? With out practice I doubt many will remember and fewer will be able to do it."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #31 June 27, 2006 Quote>A vest will automatically force you head low which sucks . . . But for some women, it will get their arms out in front of them, which is good. Depends on their weight distribution. That logic is lot like politicans' solutions to rather simple issues. Roundabout and likely to create a lot more trouble than what you're fixing in the first place. ("Why are you spreading dog food on the counter and the leaving the front door open?" "because the cat is licking the butter. See, the dogfood will attract dogs and that will scare the cat away." "Why not just put the butter in the fridge".........."huh?") I have a better solution. Retrain them in basic body position with their hands out in front and then they can wear the right kind of weight. (If they even care at that point). ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jlmiracle 7 #32 June 27, 2006 QuoteQuote>A vest will automatically force you head low which sucks . . . But for some women, it will get their arms out in front of them, which is good. Depends on their weight distribution. That logic is lot like politicans' solutions to rather simple issues. Roundabout and likely to create a lot more trouble than what you're fixing in the first place. ("Why are you spreading dog food on the counter and the leaving the front door open?" "because the cat is licking the butter. See, the dogfood will attract dogs and that will scare the cat away." "Why not just put the butter in the fridge".........."huh?") I have a better solution. Retrain them in basic body position with their hands out in front and then they can wear the right kind of weight. (If they even care at that point). Definately have to agree with this one. I was once the believer that woman needs weights up high but over the years I found that when probably placed in the middle area they can reduce the amount they have to wear. jBe kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,998 #33 June 27, 2006 >I would think it is even easier to ditch...You only have to ditch the rig. Agreed; you just can't ditch them before you land. But they should still be pretty easy to 'escape' as long as you can get out of the rig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #34 June 27, 2006 QuoteThat logic is lot like politicans' solutions to rather simple issues. My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,998 #35 June 27, 2006 >Retrain them in basic body position with their hands out in front >and then they can wear the right kind of weight. Well, heck, if us "politician" AFF instructors would stop being so lazy, we'd teach AFF students how to properly land a Xaos-95 from jump one instead of relying on a crutch like a Manta! Some women have trouble getting their hands out in front. Weight up high can help them learn to fly in a usable RW position a bit more easily. They may then opt to get tunnel time, get larger booties, get coaching etc to tweak it some more. But if a newer jumper has a few days (and not a few months) to get to the point where they can do a 4-way, weights up high can help them. Worked quite well at Rantoul for newer jumpers. (Note that I'm not saying _you_ should do this!) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #36 June 28, 2006 QuoteBelts are good, but some female jumpers really benefit from having the weight up higher. I have to disagee. You may know of a specific example, but in the time I've spent skydiving and working in tunnels I've not seen a woman benefit from a vest.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #37 June 28, 2006 Quote>Well, heck, if us "politician" AFF instructors would stop being so lazy, we'd teach AFF students how to properly land a Xaos-95 from jump one instead of relying on a crutch like a Manta! - if it appears to work for some of your students, then they are lucky they have a creative instructor helping them along - hopefully, they move on to a better weight disty once they achieve that much needed comfort level you give them ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #38 June 28, 2006 QuoteQuoteBelts are good, but some female jumpers really benefit from having the weight up higher. I have to disagee. You may know of a specific example, but in the time I've spent skydiving and working in tunnels I've not seen a woman benefit from a vest. It appear to not be applicable, apparently he's talking about using vests on women on student status to fix a particular problem pertaining to lack of body position awareness. In that case, whatever works is fine by me. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #39 June 29, 2006 QuoteIt appear to not be applicable, apparently he's talking about using vests on women on student status to fix a particular problem pertaining to lack of body position awareness. In that case, whatever works is fine by me. By attempting to fix one problem it seems that another is created that must be corrected at a latter date.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #40 June 29, 2006 QuoteQuoteIt appear to not be applicable, apparently he's talking about using vests on women on student status to fix a particular problem pertaining to lack of body position awareness. In that case, whatever works is fine by me. By attempting to fix one problem it seems that another is created that must be corrected at a latter date. Yep, dogfood and butter I agree, but I'm leaning towards Billvon on this one. Whatever it takes to get the student through training is worth it. Fine tuning can happen later when you know they have three things mastered - stability, altitude awareness, rudimentary flying skills. But if possible, then the DZ should have weight vests available as training tools, and the student should be encouraged to not purchase one and plan for more advanced training and expectation of owning a belt instead.---when they are ready. (I back down on this kind of stuff when we are talking about VERY new students, that's special case and should be handled on a one at a time basis by the instructor jumping with them.) ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
faulknerwn 38 #41 June 30, 2006 I agree too. For years I believed the notion that girls should wear vests, but when I switched to a belt, I noticed I could halve the weight that I was wearing in a vest.. It was noticably easier to fall fast with a belt than a vest... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #42 June 30, 2006 QuoteIt was noticably easier to fall fast with a belt than a vest... And while wearing a belt sucks...I think that a belt feels better. It hangs on my hips, not my shoulders. It just feels better."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
