Newbies jumping together.

[crzjp20 0]

i have to day that at GOld Coast this is so much easer than other places. I jumped with guys down there who wont even give me the time of day up here. I got a 20 minutel lecture one time how i can not jump there till i have an A lisence cause i didnt train there, and how i should go through AFF all over again with them.... stuff like that is stupid.

Bottom line is you have to ask, i asked a guy this weekend and he straight up asked me why he would want to jump with a newbie that would make him work.... there are jerks in this world and there are people who are just so stuck on them selves that they can not see beyond their own nose. However there are people who will be glad to jump with you and who will gladly take you up and just go have fun, there are people who will politly tell you no and there are those like that guy his weekend who cut me down when i asked him.

I understand people can be busy and i understand people can have plans, but in my opinion there is no need to be rude or rash against someone for simply asking them to do a jump.

With that said, about 5 minutes after that i had a guy with about 2000 jumps come up to m and ask me to go do a 2 way, it was great we flipped 10 points on it and had a blast. So it goes both ways. But when it comes down to it, at one time or other everyone is new to this sport, everyone has to learn and the only way you learn is talking listening, and jumping with people who know more that you.

on thats my .02

--------------------------------------------------
Fear is not a confession of weakness, it is an oportunity for courage.

[SkiD_PL8 0]

I am a "newbie" fresh off of student status and have no problem jumping with other low timers at my home DZ. This however could be because I have jumped with alot of people there and my abilities and faults are allready known at the DZ. I can understand being asked to go on a safety check dive with my friend and a staff member at a DZ I had never jumped at before, as a matter of fact I wouldn't be surprised if that happened if I showed up at a new DZ to do solo's with my jump numbers.

I don't think that it is hard to find someone experienced to jump with. You just have to be more outgoing if you are the "new guy." Be sure to buy the beer for all your firsts and hang out for the parties when you can, you will quickly make friends with alot of the more experienced jumpers. By the time I got my "A" I was well known at the DZ, and had alot of people who were waiting to jump with me. You just can't expect everyone to do everything for you, be outgoing and put the effort into meeting people at the DZ to jump with.

Greenie in training.

[Zenister 0]

it might be a bit slow in Eloy at the moment, but once you have your A you wont have much trouble finding people to jump with... Team Flail is hard to miss

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[Vallerina 2]

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You have to socialize with them, perhaps over the course of several weekends or months.

I completely agree with this. I like to jump with my friends. It's more fun to jump with my friends than with anyone else. So, if you come and hang out and become friends with people, they're more likely to ask you to jump.

Also, USPA has a two-way competition at Collegiates every year, and you can't have more than 100 jumps to compete in it.....just a random note.

There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning

[chutem 0]

I've been meeting people left and right at Eloy. Just pick someone that was making a solo on one of your loads and introduce yourself later. I'm there on mondays so it seems the other people are looking for monday jumpers. Most all that I have met are very "nice" to me the newbie. I'm just dissapointed that it may be so long befor the wife and I can do our own 2-ways together.

James

[Ruffles 0]

--Surfer> Hey dude, I'm a week-day jumper. If you are into RW, my buddy and I are just starting to do the 3-way thing so I'll see if you're around. Glad you're having a good experience, I'll try to tap into that. There are some new faces down there. Andy & Brooke have coached us several times. Dunno if thats who you're talking about.

--Elsinore was NOT one of those places that wasn't helpful. In fact, that was my best DZ experience to date, its just too far t drive. I'll be back though.

I understand people network and make plans to come jump together and that it's their rplanned day to jump with friends. I'm not saying they're bad people, but even taking the planning into account, that still leaves me jumping with newbies, which changes nothing from my original problem my friend.

To the unnamed Belgian individual with no profile who stated they saw two 50-jumpers going low on an RW.... Brotha, that happens with people at 500 jumps, 5000 jumps, and everything in between. You can't say that happened BECAUSE they only had 50 jumps. That happened becaused they used poor judgement. That judgement won't get better jumping alone. BTW - I break off way higher than 3500 AGL (I'm under canopy at 3500!).

AndyMan> Too bad you don't jump here dude, you seem like a somebody I could learn alot from, but of all the DZs I've been to, Perris was the worst in terms of snubbing and no teaching (without paying). I would always pay for someone's ticket if they agreed to coach me. Move to SoCal and start a trend of altruism.

Thanks for the feedback and not flaming me folks, I get mouthy sometimes. Newbie Blues was an excellent article.

[Croc 0]

Perhaps you need to jump at a smaller, friendlier DZ. I would not waste my money on a DZ that had the attitude you expressed in your post. I am a new jumper and at my DZ I regularly jump on loads with experienced jumpers--free coach jumps! Think you're learning something jumping with other newbies? I can tell you, you'll progress much more rapidly when you jump with experienced people. Now that's FUN!

"Here's a good specimen of my own wisdom. Something is so, except when it isn't so."

Charles Fort, commenting on the many contradictions of astronomy

[PhreeZone 20]

Seek out a Cessna DZ, they tend to be smaller and more focused on low timer jumpers and more willing not to be motivated by $ for everything.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[firstime 0]

sorry to hear your DZ has that attitude, my Dz tries
to promote the"noobs" to get involved, and everyone
has some great advice, because they (ppl @ SDLI)
did NOT forget where they came from.

[Stacy 0]

I agree with Val. It's about making your face familiar to others at the DZ. Simply being around regularly says a lot for your desire to learn and progress in the sport. This is ongoing, not just for newbies. When I got my A license, I was probably one of the most annoying people at the DZ. I asked everyone to jump with me. Some said yes, some said no. I remember having under 100 jumps and (not knowing who he was) asked Roger Ponce if he would jump with me. teehee. One day, thogh, he DID say yes, a s I was a recognizable regular face around that people could vouch for.

It's frustrating initially, but with persistance yo'll have more people to jump with than you can imagine.

You'll learn way more on a two way with an old timer than another newbie. With another newbie you don't know WHO is backsliding, etc.

__

[MakeItHappen 15]

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Two NGs can jump together, but they ought to have at least one experienced person with them.

In this instance, what could an experienced jumper possibly have done if they had collided on opening? The experienced jumper would also have tracked away and would be of no use at all.

An experienced jumper can remind the new jumpers to keep tracking all the way to assigned pull altitude. This would reduce the risk of the jumpers backsliding into each other.

Three people tracking off are at about 120 degrees from either jumper on the left and right. This makes it easier to see the other two jumpers with a side look.

I always recommend that 2-ways break off in directions so that the angle between them is about 120 to 160 degrees, not 180 degrees. This way it is easier to see each other. Experienced jumpers know how to find someone by looking past their feet during a break off, but new jumpers have not usually mastered this.

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I came into this sport alone, without anybody coming along in training with me or for moral support.

That is the norm.

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PLEASE can you give some valuable tips on WHO to approach, WHEN? & WHAT to ask them about their jumping & tell about my training etc, so that the planning, jumps, my skills continue to go well??????

Start by asking your instructors which experienced jumpers know how to work with new jumpers and use good judgement that considers the new jumper's experience (or lack thereof).

These jumpers come in several flavors. Some are relatively new jumpers that like working with the recent graduates. They have ambitions to become coaches or instructors themselves. Some are retired instructors. Some are long time jumpers (former world champions and the like) that jump occasionally and like to pass on their knowledge.

Whoever you get should build in ground-altimeter checks as part of the dive flow for jumpers less than 100 jumps or un-current. This develops the 'what does the ground look like at such-n-such altitude and your internal clock. They should ask about your previous jumps and what you want to work on. They can also suggest 'ok let's try such-n-such'. They should explain climb-outs or exits with specific hand and foot placements and how to carry yourself in the door. That is, do you stand completely upright, have a small bend in your knee or hang your hips lower than the floater in front of you. For diving exits they should explain your presentation to the air and direction of dive out (down, towards the wingtip etc) They should also have the new jumper explain their canopy ride (where they are going to land, wind direction, pattern etc.)

One exit I like to do with new jumpers is a double backloop off the plane. The new jumper is front floater. The experienced jumper is rear floater and takes a high shoulder grip on the new jumper. The new jumper gives the exit count of down-up-down and just lets go of the plane and sits down. The two BL a few times, let go and go to a two-way. This relieves the 'pressure' of having to do a perfect exit. Essentially, you plan a funneled exit (that happens to be a really fun exit too) and then go on to turn drills or whatever. This teaches the new jumper that when you funnel exits later (and you will - no matter how many jumps you have) you just forget it and get back onto the planned dive. No need to beat yourself up because you think you were late, early or had bad presentation. Just get on with it. Subsequent exits can be the proper presentation and timing type.

During a post dive, the experienced jumper should sound like a broken record of 'And then what happened?' If they tell you 'You did this and then you did that at this altitude etc' they are cheating you out of developing your awareness and recall of what happened on a dive. At the same time, it is okay not to remember everything that happened or when it happened. They should also make sure you describe a dive in order that things happen. Sometimes new jumpers talk about one part of the dive and then skip to another part of the dive and then back to someplace in-between. The experienced jumper can get you back on track by saying 'wait, wait, wait, what happened after xyz maneuver and before abc maneuver?' They should not say 'oh you forgot pdq maneuver.' They should be bringing out your observations, not making you feel bad because your skip around a bit (that is normal). A debrief includes canopy control too. You explain the pattern you did, traffic, winds, projected landing point, flare (Goldilocks - not too high, not too low, but just right).

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You just have to be more outgoing if you are the "new guy."

Yes, this is the way it works.

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To the unnamed Belgian individual with no profile

Well, if you click on the link in my profile or sig block, you can determine that I am not an 'unnamed Belgian'. And no I won't fill the profile in. I have a hard enough time maintaining my sites. I want people to reply to my posts based upon content. If you must 'consider the source', that is easy enough to determine. This is part of my intent to teach people to critically evaluate what they hear or learn from people at the DZ or in a magazine or on some message board. Just because someone with gobs and gobs of experience says something, does not necessarily make it correct. There are plenty of 'accomplished' jumpers that are just plain full of it.

Edit:
Also keep in mind that a profile here can be completely bogus. The only way to determine if it is legitimate is to either know the person or have others back up the poster. If a poster sends you to another web site(s) that has consistent data (whois registration, person known by others, lots of other info about skydiving, name or photo in the magazines every once in awhile etc), then that person is more likely to be a valid source of information than someone with only 'a filled out profile'.
By all means, 'consider the source', but do not depend upon a filled out profile as the only means of determining a poster's expertise.
Then again there is the Skyride phenomena that puts another angle on this.

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who stated they saw two 50-jumpers going low on an RW.... Brotha, that happens with people at 500 jumps, 5000 jumps, and everything in between. You can't say that happened BECAUSE they only had 50 jumps. That happened becaused they used poor judgement. That judgement won't get better jumping alone. BTW - I break off way higher than 3500 AGL (I'm under canopy at 3500!).

I can definitely say that low break-offs or low pulls or collisions are more likely to happen when two or more low experienced jumpers jump together than when an experienced jumper is on the load. There are many incidents that support this. I agree that solos will not help as much as jumping with others. Yes, I know most new jumpers are under canopy at 3500, and I said that many years ago the typical break-off altitude was 3500 feet.

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Thanx for "NEWBIE BLUES" link.
Newbie Blues was an excellent article.

Thank-you
Newbie Blues was "Originally published in Sport Parachutist's Safety Journal, V2, #1 Sept./Oct. 1989."
Skydance Skydiving in Davis, CA used to give graduating students a copy of the article to help new jumpers understand the culture shock.
I understand what new jumpers are going through. Take it as part of the learning curve of skydiving, not personally.

.

.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[Fast 0]

I can't disagree with the fact that you will learn SOOO much more by jumping with people that have more jumps skill than you. (yah, jumps are normally a good measure, anyways...) I have been lucky enough to be at a DZ that is very inclusionary when it comes to RW dives. I have only been turned down on a dive when it was either a special dive (00's, etc) or the person setting it up wanted to keep it small based on who was on it. Thats a great thing and it has helped me to learn a lot faster than I probally could have just jumping with people who are at or below my personal skill level.

I hope that people will jump more with others that are experienced rather than people with their own skills, hell, I think it should be most highly encouraged as a general practice.

That said, it seems counter productive to give a person a 'license' to skydive if they aren't capable of at least a basic two way with someone else of similar skill level. Maybe we need to make it harder to get an A if the people just getting it are not capable of making very basic skydives. Either that or maybe we should reconsider what an A license means and what a person with one is allowed to do.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[kelpdiver 2]

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That said, it seems counter productive to give a person a 'license' to skydive if they aren't capable of at least a basic two way with someone else of similar skill level. Maybe we need to make it harder to get an A if the people just getting it are not capable of making very basic skydives. Either that or maybe we should reconsider what an A license means and what a person with one is allowed to do.

At what point do we just accept that skydiving has risks? When there's an obvious problem, you think about solutions, but it doesn't seem like this problem has been clearly demonstrated. Wait a 100 jumps?? Less than a year ago that was a C license.

I've found people to be pretty friendly towards me and a couple have told me to find them when I'm official so we can do some 2 ways. It's seemed to me that if you're friendly and open about your experience and what you're still working on, people are friendly in return. It doesn't behoove you to lurk in the background.

But that aside, I think in most sports you benefit from being with a mix of experienced and then people at your level. It's too easy to rely on the other guy as a coach and take less responsibility for the jump. When you're with another green guy, you don't have that ambilical cord and can't rely on him to notice and fix your errors. You benefit from both experiences.

[billvon 2,989]

>That said, it seems counter productive to give a person a 'license' to
>skydive if they aren't capable of at least a basic two way with someone
> else of similar skill level.

The A license simply means you can jump on your own safely. It is not a license to perform any given RW/swoop/demo - it is, at best, a license to learn. You can do two-ways with someone at your level, and with careful attention to detail and safety (and good advice) you will increase your risk only slightly over a solo. You won't learn much, of course.

When I give the first jump course, I always explain that in this course they're going to basically be force-fed everything they need to know. As they progress through the levels, it becomes more and more important that the jumper begins to take a more active role in learning - they have to start asking questions, making their own decisions, and basically start taking responsibility for their own education. Why? Because once they're off student status, they're not going to have a JM telling them exactly what to do on every single jump, although they do have guidance available (via the ISP, the proficiency card and their local instructors.) This is even more pronounced once they have their A. Once you have your A license, you are responsible for the risks you take, the training you get, and the dives you go on. No one is going to tell you that you absolutely can't do this or that; you have to have the good judgement to decide on your own. It's what being an experienced jumper is all about.

[Fast 0]

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The A license simply means you can jump on your own safely. It is not a license to perform any given RW/swoop/demo - it is, at best, a license to learn. You can do two-ways with someone at your level, and with careful attention to detail and safety (and good advice) you will increase your risk only slightly over a solo. You won't learn much, of course.

I agree

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When I give the first jump course, I always explain that in this course they're going to basically be force-fed everything they need to know. As they progress through the levels, it becomes more and more important that the jumper begins to take a more active role in learning - they have to start asking questions, making their own decisions, and basically start taking responsibility for their own education. Why? Because once they're off student status, they're not going to have a JM telling them exactly what to do on every single jump, although they do have guidance available (via the ISP, the proficiency card and their local instructors.) This is even more pronounced once they have their A. Once you have your A license, you are responsible for the risks you take, the training you get, and the dives you go on. No one is going to tell you that you absolutely can't do this or that; you have to have the good judgement to decide on your own. It's what being an experienced jumper is all about.

Re the lines bolded by me in the above:

Thats the point I was trying to make, that it would seem if you have an A lic. you are responsible for the level or risk you are willing to take. The first post said that the two new jumpers were consistantly denied the ability to jump together. The first post was pretty short and there wasn't a lot of detail given about what they were trying to do so there may be some other circumstances that kept them from making the jumps, but it does seem that someone is absolutely telling them they can't make a dive together. Which led me to ask if the training people are getting pre-A is good enough.

If they don't have the ability to make a judgement that they shouldn't be jumping together and the people at the DZs that they are going to are having to make that decision maybe these two shouldn't have gotten an A which is how we get back to what does an A mean.

You said that it means you can jump on your own safely, do you mean only alone or do you mean you have the ability to take responsibility for yourself in regards to what groups you are comfortable with and safe jumping with. If an A means they have to take responsibility for themselves then it seems that either these two shouldn't have gotten one or the DZs that are not letting them jump together are not being reasonable.

I don't know I guess the point that I am making is that we have a contradiction of what people are saying the A means and what it is meaning in practice -or- we have an issue of two people who shouldn't have licenses but somehow do (no offense intended and my guess is that this isn't the case).



For clarification, I know that the issue isn't this cut and dry, there is quite a bit of gray area when it comes to what a newer jumper (myself included as I have only been skydiving for just over a year) is informed on an capable of making a decision about.

It is clear that,

- Two new jumpers jumping together won't learn much.
- There is a level of added risk when two new jumpers jump together.
- No way in hell should two NGs freefly together.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[mr2mk1g 10]

If it only impacted on the jumpers then sure, let them do what ever they want. Let them go kill themselves in every new way and every old way they can come up with. Problem is it doesn’t just involve them: it also impacts on the DZ in a big way.

If two newbs take it upon themselves to jump together and thus increase their risk (do we all at least agree that the risk is increased to some degree?) and one frapps in because of that call, who do you think has to:
Fill in all the paperwork?
Deal with the FAA?
Deal with the media?
Deal with their parents?
Deal with the adverse publicity?
Attempt first aid on their mangled body?
Fill in the damn hole?

It’s a hell of a lot to do with the DZ as well as the two jumpers who made that call. That’s one of the reasons why DZ’s are reluctant to let people do something which, in their consideration, carries too much risk. It’s not just the jumper’s call.

Now who is better informed to make that call? Two newbies who have 25 jumps each? Nope. Me with a poxy 200+ jumps? Hell no! It’s going to be the people who own and run the DZ and have 20 years and thousands of jumps exp. If they say “no, it’s too risky” then there’s not a great deal to complain about – it’s their show and they have a hell of a right to make the calls about what goes on in it.

IIRC Perris says you must have 100 jumps between you. That seems sensible - one of them should be able to get out of the way of the other by then.

[Ruffles 0]

Thats the altruistic spirit I was talking about!! Nothin' worse than having to deal with burying the bodies of newbies.

[Rdy2skydive 0]

Despite all of the talk about what a tight knit family skydiving is, there are many places where experienced people won't give you the time of day when you jump there or they do so many tandems/AFFs that they don't have enough time during the day to jump with you...

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Find another DZ. That's what I did and I couldn't be happier. It's 160 miles away but worth the 3 hour drive. I admit that showing up at a new DZ with low jump numbers was very scary but I've made a whole new group of friends to jump with and experienced skydivers don't have any hang-ups about jumping with newer jumpers. I hated being in a position where I felt like I had to beg people to jump with me. Now I don't have to worry about it. Good luck!

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[billvon 2,989]

>You said that it means you can jump on your own safely, do you mean
> only alone or do you mean you have the ability to take responsibility for
>yourself in regards to what groups you are comfortable with and safe
>jumping with.

Graduating AFF means you are safe to jump on your own; getting an A means you have the basic knowledge to be able to make decisions on larger jumps. Usually it means you're OK to do a two-way with another jumper. Does this mean you can safely do a 100 way? Of course not.

When A-license jumpers enter the skydiving world, they are prepared for the skydiving world as it (usually) exists. If you put 100 people with 25 jumps a piece and brand new A licenses, and have them try to open a DZ on their own, spot the planes, brief the pilots, organize coaching, set up safe exit rules - it's not going to work. But that's not how the world of skydiving works. When you graduate, you enter the world of skydiving, which means that you will be among people with experience that extends from you to Dan BC. And in that group, you will be able to find someone that you can jump with safely. Sometimes that means two people with 30 jumps will be jumping together; sometimes an S+TA will see a 100 pound freeflyer going up with a 230 pound bowling ball and tell them it's a bad idea. Should they have known that on their own? Perhaps. But again, skydiving does not take place in a vacuum; other people with more experience will give newer jumpers advice, suggestions and sometimes even orders. They can make better decisions than someone with 30 jumps.

>I don't know I guess the point that I am making is that we have a
>contradiction of what people are saying the A means and what it is
>meaning in practice. . .

It's a license to learn. It does not give you any inherent "rights." If an S+TA tells you you shouldn't jump with another jumper for X reason, and you tell him "you can't stop me, I have an A license!" the other jumpers will (rightfully) have a good laugh at your expense. That's not an example of the system breaking down, it's an example of the system working. That S+TA is not there to stop you, or violate your rights; he's there to try to give you good advice that will keep you alive as you gain skill. "Thanks" would be a better response to that S+TA.

[Fast 0]

Yeah, I don't have anything contrary to say regarding the points that your making. I guess I am just making the point to make the point. I really wish I would have run into you at rantoul when you weren't on your way to a plane. Every time I saw you it was on the way to a load and never got a chance to introduce myself.

Anyways, your right this doesn't exist in a vacuum and it wont and never will but I think its hard to try and consider every variable when we are discussing this stuff on here.

It just seems to me that it is kind of pointless if there is no substance behind a lic.

I as well do not think that an A lic. gives you definable rights that shouldn't be "violated" but it is supposed to at some level speak to your very basic capabilities as a new skydiver. I would however guess that some people think it does give you rights.


>Does this mean you can safely do a 100 way? Of course not.

I question whether someone that thinks it would be safe to go on a 100-way with 30 jumps should even have an A. It would seem to me that they have not got a significant grasp on what is and what is not safe. But thats just my opinion I might be wrong

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[sillie1111 0]

At my DZ there is no real issues with Newbies jumping together. I had just done a 4 way with a jumper who had 28 jumps and just got his A ( we didnt try anything radical just got the fall rate thing and tracked off at 5,000) I think If you are not trying anything radical maybee just some basics like fall rate, staying together without taking grips ect.. then it is not so dangerous for newbies jumping together. Not to say that I would do a two way and try to turn points if i did not know how well that person flew.

But I do agree that it is more valuable to jump with an experienced jumper, I dont usualy jump with other newbies unless there are no experinced skydivers around. Hell I did a 9 point 4 way last week (Got thrown around a bit) But that never would have happened if we where all at my experience level, and it could have been pretty ugly with 4, 42 jump wonders like myself.

~Shelly

[WrongWay 0]

Newbies jumping together is a bad idea.

When you have two people of the same (and very low) skill level, what will they learn from each other? They could get 100 jumps together and not learn a damn thing correctly. It's like two guys with 100 jumps going out and trying to learn head down together, it's dangerous as hell and it simply won't teach them what they want to learn. Newbies should get coaching or go out with more experienced flyers. RW or freefly, it doesn't matter, just don't put two newbies together. It's a recipe that burns easily.

Wrong Way
D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451
The wiser wolf prevails.

[billvon 2,989]

>They could get 100 jumps together and not learn a damn thing correctly.

Agreed, but there are times that people just want to jump.

>It's like two guys with 100 jumps going out and trying to learn head down
> together, it's dangerous as hell and it simply won't teach them what they
> want to learn.

Well, no, cause neither one knows anything about head down in your example. Even new A license jumpers are taught the basics of safe 2-way.

[Flyer2Diver 0]

IMO, there can be value/learning when newbies jump together.

Personally, I prefer to interleave coaching jumps with practice. Coaching alone gets expensive, and there's more pressure to perform. If I'm just doing a fun jump with another low-timer, the pressure is off which helps me to learn . I found this to be a very productive and fun way to fine-tune my belly-flying skills.

_______________________________
30005KT 10SM SKC 23/05 A3006

[Fast 0]

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Newbies jumping together is a bad idea.

When you have two people of the same (and very low) skill level, what will they learn from each other? ...

Nothing, but I think sometimes people just want to go up in freefall together and share something cool. Every jump doesn't have to be a skill drill or hardcore RW, or anything really.

Maybe they just want to go up link a 2-way and stare at eachother. They won't learn much,.... nope, they wont.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka