Tariffs

[ryoder 1,590]

As soon as I started reading the article, I thought of Black Mirror, and damned if they didn’t include a link to it.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[Phil1111 1,149]

Defying Trump, China Slaps Tariffs on 128 U.S. Products
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/01/world/asia/china-tariffs-united-states.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=first-column-region®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news

"put tariffs as high as 25 percent on imports of 128 American-made products, including pork and seamless steel pipes...

The Ministry of Commerce said then that it could impose tariffs in two stages: first, a 15 percent duty on 120 products, including fruit and wine, and then, after further assessing the impact of the United States’ tariffs, a 25 percent tariff on eight other products, including pork, an important moneymaker, especially in farming regions in states that voted for Mr. Trump....

“Many members of the public voiced their support for the measures and the product list through telephone calls, emails and other means,” the ministry said. “After an assessment, it was decided to implement the measures described on 128 products imported from the United States.”

[billvon 3,070]

No one could have foreseen that putting tariffs on imports could have led to a trade war!

[kallend 2,106]

billvon

No one could have foreseen that putting tariffs on imports could have led to a trade war!

Nobody knew healthcare trade could be so complicated.

I wonder if nobody is better at chess than Trump.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 3,070]

Aaaand - the war begins!
====================
Trump Administration Identifies Chinese Tariff Targets
April 3, 20186:55 PM ET

SCOTT HORSLEY NPR

The Trump administration published a list Tuesday of Chinese exports that could soon be subject to a steep 25 percent tariff.

The list covers some $50 billion worth of Chinese goods in sectors such as aerospace, robotics, IT and machinery.

President Trump directed his trade advisers to develop the list last month, as a way to punish China for what the White House calls unfair treatment of American intellectual property. Trump has also ordered his treasury secretary to weigh new limits on Chinese investment in the United States.

The list of tariff targets was made public after the market closed on Tuesday. News of retaliatory tariffs from China on $3 billion worth of U.S. goods contributed to sharp sell-off on Wall Street Monday.
========================

[yoink 321]

They're targeting $3bn. We hit $50bn. WE WIN!

It's the rule of BIGGER.

[billvon 3,070]

>They're targeting $3bn. We hit $50bn. WE WIN!

Not so fast:
====================
China announces new tariffs on 106 US products, including soy, cars and chemicals

The effective start date for the new charges is not announced, though China's Ministry of Commerce says the tariffs are designed to target up to $50 billion of U.S. products annually.

The 25 percent levy on U.S. imports includes products such as soybeans, cars and whiskey.

The move comes less than 24 hours after President Trump unveiled a list of Chinese imports that his administration aims to target as part of a crackdown on what he deems as unfair trade practices.
=====================

Now THEY WIN! I guess Trump will have to increase the number of tariffs again. And the Chinese will follow suit.

But - and this is important to note - there is NO TRADE WAR. Trump today: "We are not in a trade war with China, that war was lost many years ago by the foolish, or incompetent, people who represented the U.S. "

[kallend 2,106]

"We've always been at war with Eastasia".

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[DJL 235]

kallend

"We've always been at war with Eastasia".

Nobody knew a trade war would have further ramifications:

CHINA MILITARY TELLS RUSSIA 'WE'VE COME TO SUPPORT YOU' AGAINST U.S.

China's military leadership has pledged its support to Russia as tensions between Moscow and the West further deteriorate into diplomatic isolation, economic sanctions and dueling defense drills.

http://www.newsweek.com/china-military-tells-russia-weve-come-support-you-against-us-870070

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[JerryBaumchen 1,436]

Hi Bill,

Quote

Now THEY WIN!

Well, so much for The Art of the Deal.

Looks like the great deal maker got had.

Jerry Baumchen

[headoverheels 333]

billvon

No one could have foreseen that putting tariffs on imports could have led to a trade war!

I somehow think that Trump is not familiar with Smoot-Hawley.

[billvon 3,070]

>I somehow think that Trump is not familiar with Smoot-Hawley.

That's one of those things most people learn about in eighth grade, along with the Civil War, the Magna Carta and the Battle of Hastings.

[ryoder 1,590]

JerryBaumchen

Hi Bill,

Quote

Now THEY WIN!

Well, so much for The Art of the Deal.

Looks like the great deal maker got had.

Jerry Baumchen

Anyone who wanted the author of "The Art of the Deal" as POTUS, needed to write-in "Tony Schwartz".

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[AlanS 1]

I'm all for this trade war. It was never free and fair to begin with.

The original premiss for trading with China was to encourage it to be more free. That premiss has turned out to be false and they are taking advantage of us in some many ways. I'm skeptical that North Korea could have built nuclear weapons and the rockets to deliver them to our shores without some tacit help from elements within China's govt.

It is time to shut down trade with China.

If they help denuclearize North Korea I could change my mind. That is the bargain I would make.

No nukes in N. Korea = trade with us.
Nukes in North Korea = no trading with us.

[wmw999 2,534]

The original premise to start might have been to encourage freedom, but the reason was to make money. And that trumps everything these days.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[DanG 1]

Shut down trade with China? Completely unrealistic and would devestate the world economy (the US is part of the world, BTW).

- Dan G

[ryoder 1,590]

DanG

Shut down trade with China? Completely unrealistic and would devestate the world economy (the US is part of the world, BTW).

Yes, just wait until Trump's base march into Walmart and find the shelves half empty, with the products remaining marked up 25%.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[Phil1111 1,149]

AlanS

I'm all for this trade war. It was never free and fair to begin with.

The original premiss for trading with China was to encourage it to be more free. That premiss has turned out to be false and they are taking advantage of us in some many ways. I'm skeptical that North Korea could have built nuclear weapons and the rockets to deliver them to our shores without some tacit help from elements within China's govt.

It is time to shut down trade with China.

If they help denuclearize North Korea I could change my mind. That is the bargain I would make.

No nukes in N. Korea = trade with us.
Nukes in North Korea = no trading with us.

You have a very fundamental misunderstanding about how trade works.

Start by understanding this:
http://www.industryweek.com/trade/how-trump-wrong-about-trade

"For the Chinese steel manufacturers, however, the news was inconsequential. Although China is the world's largest steel exporter, it is only the 11th-largest source country to the U.S., accounting for just 2 percent of total U.S. imports last year."
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/02/if-trump-thinks-hes-taking-steel-tariff-war-to-china-hes-wrong.html

There are some major factors that influence corp. decision making with regards to locating head offices and manufacturing.

Taxes:
https://taxfoundation.org/2017-international-tax-competitiveness-index/

Access to capital markets:
http://www.milkeninstitute.org/publications/view/430

Rule of Law and Governance:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/politics/17-best-governed-countries-world-a7417096.html
The above list doesn't include the US because its 18th
https://worldjusticeproject.org/sites/default/files/documents/ROLIndex_2016_US_eng%20%282%29.pdf

Education of workers:
https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2010/dec/07/world-education-rankings-maths-science-reading
US ranks 14th.

etc. trump is right about one factor. Theft of intellectual property. Which is discounted by all the statements he makes around trade that is wrong. Or just a plain lie to pander to his base.
http://www.industryweek.com/intellectual-property/what-could-be-done-about-chinas-theft-intellectual-property

But before ANYONE jumps to the remedy in the above story they need to understand the first quoted Industryweek story. About how trump is wrong on the trade war campaign.

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

ryoder

***Shut down trade with China? Completely unrealistic and would devestate the world economy (the US is part of the world, BTW).

Yes, just wait until Trump's base march into Walmart and find the shelves half empty, with the products remaining marked up 25%.

I think you are underestimating both percentages.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[jcd11235 0]

ryoder

Yes, just wait until Trump's base march into Walmart and find the shelves half empty, with the products remaining marked up 25%.

Of course, without their smart phones, they'll never be able to calculate the difference as 25 percent.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[kallend 2,106]

headoverheels

***No one could have foreseen that putting tariffs on imports could have led to a trade war!

I somehow think that Trump is not familiar with Smoot-Hawley.

Somehow I think Trump is a lousy chess player.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[DJL 235]

AlanS

I'm all for this trade war. It was never free and fair to begin with.

The original premiss for trading with China was to encourage it to be more free. That premiss has turned out to be false and they are taking advantage of us in some many ways. I'm skeptical that North Korea could have built nuclear weapons and the rockets to deliver them to our shores without some tacit help from elements within China's govt.

It is time to shut down trade with China.

If they help denuclearize North Korea I could change my mind. That is the bargain I would make.

No nukes in N. Korea = trade with us.
Nukes in North Korea = no trading with us.

Unfortunately, the exact opposite is happening as far as how China is aligning itself. If our diplomatic and economic relationship with China is hurt any more we could very well see China entirely release its sanctions against North Korea. They'll be more than happy to let NK continue to exist as a military buffer state between themselves and US allies in the region.

Much of their economy lives off of trade with the US but a trade war will force them to seek other economic partners. If those partners are advantageous for them it will be very difficult to regain the trade relationships that we've lost.

Diplomacy is a house of cards, very difficult to build, very easy to destroy.

Edited to add article about China publicly joining with Russia militarily against the United States: http://www.newsweek.com/china-military-tells-russia-weve-come-support-you-against-us-870070

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[billvon 3,070]

>The original premiss for trading with China was to encourage it to be more free.

Well, no. It was to make money. "Freedom" was good window dressing, but it was driven by the desire for cheap labor. (As evidence of this, note that the JV amendment to the 1974 trade act was waived AFTER trade began in earnest - in other words, when the money was good.)

> That premiss has turned out to be false and they are taking advantage of us in some
>many ways.

Just as we are taking advantage of them in many ways. In fact, two entities taking advantage of each other is pretty much the definition of trade. "You don't have good soil? I'll take advantage of that and charge you $$$ for my crops!"

>It is time to shut down trade with China.

And cripple two economies for the sake of . . . what? Revenge?

[jakee 1,563]

headoverheels

***No one could have foreseen that putting tariffs on imports could have led to a trade war!

I somehow think that Trump is not familiar with Smoot-Hawley.

Smut Harley, isn't she a porn star he used to know?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[billvon 3,070]

"We are not in a trade war with China!"

Today -

"In light of China's unfair retaliation, I have instructed the [United States Trade Representative] to consider whether $100 billion of additional tariffs would be appropriate."

It's almost like it's a conflict where each side escalates without limit. But in a manner that IN NO WAY resembles any sort of a war. War on drugs? Sure, that's a thing. But this is NOT a trade war.