the 4th of July confession

[billvon 2,998]

>Marc, enjoy the fishing anyways!

Yep! Everyone celebrates the 4th in a different way. Senator Richard Shelby, for example, spent the time celebrating with his most important constituents - and toured their city.

[rushmc 23]

Do you think that you would accept that kind of bullshit if I was using my recollection as an argument?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[jcd11235 0]

RonD1120

******Other than potentially WWI, no there really hasn't been.

Freedom in the US during WWII was never at risk.

Shhh …
You'll interfere with our Great American Fantasy.

The American fantasy is the greatest most magnificent national fantasy in the history of the world. What do you have to gain by seeking to destroy it?

Here's the thing: it's a fantasy, not real.

The only risks to freedom faced by America in the last 75 years or so has come from within. The military hasn't been called on to defend America's freedom, except in such cases of state national guards being activated to enforce desegregation, and similar attacks on freedom from conservatives.

It doesn't fit the national fantasy, but the real heroes defending American freedoms on the front lines are teachers, artists, defense attorneys, librarians, and even sports stars like Colin Kaepernick. And more often than not, it's subgroups of conservatives from which the attacks originate.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[DanG 1]

Quote

The US got involved because you got attacked. before that you had no problem profiting of the Nazi regime. You have had multiple president's whose family wealth came from Nazi collaboration.

You had no problem with jews getting gassed and exterminated by the millions. Your government was aware and chose not to get involved.

"We cared about humanity" is revisionist bullshit.

Germany didn't attack us. Why did we get involved in Europe?

The rest of your post is just your usual America bashing bullshit, intended to get a rise out of us dumb Yanks. I'm not biting.

- Dan G

[jcd11235 0]

SkyDekker

Please do explain when exactly in the 20th century freedom in the US was threatened?

I forgot to mention McCarthyism previously.

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[DanG 1]

Quote

Yes, absolutely. Why wouldn't I?

Because you can't even admit that our entry into the European theater, which you concede was not due to any threat to American interests, was good.

If you can't bring yourself to admit that the US helping to defeat the Nazis was good I can't imagine anything else that we've ever done meeting with your approval.

- Dan G

[jcd11235 0]

jakee

… "no nation building" was actually a promise of the administration.

To be fair, they didn't engage in any successful nation building.

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[jcd11235 0]

DanG

Can you bring yourself to admit the US has ever done anything good?

13th, 14th, 15th, 19th, and 24th Amendments
Executive Order 11111
Loving v. Virginia
Brown v. Board of Education
Obergefell v. Hodges
Apollo 11 (the entire space program, really)

There's a few.

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[jcd11235 0]

DanG

Quote

The US got involved because you got attacked. before that you had no problem profiting of the Nazi regime. You have had multiple president's whose family wealth came from Nazi collaboration.

You had no problem with jews getting gassed and exterminated by the millions. Your government was aware and chose not to get involved.

"We cared about humanity" is revisionist bullshit.

Germany didn't attack us. Why did we get involved in Europe?

Since you seem to have slept through US History, USA declared war on Germany in the hours after Germany declared war on the US.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

DanG

Quote

Yes, absolutely. Why wouldn't I?

Because you can't even admit that our entry into the European theater, which you concede was not due to any threat to American interests, was good.

If you can't bring yourself to admit that the US helping to defeat the Nazis was good I can't imagine anything else that we've ever done meeting with your approval.

Our entry into the European theater was due to an agreement among the allies that Europe would take first priority. There were some pretty good reasons for that.

And I'm not in any way implying that America does nothing good. We do and have done many, many good things throughout our history.

But we've also done some fairly horrific things too. Ignoring the Holocaust in Germany (including refusing a boatload of Jewish refugees and sending them back to their deaths) was one.
Ignoring Europe until it was apparent that Britain would not fall is another. US industrialists making huge profits selling to the Nazis (and supporting them) is yet another. Nobody seems to remember that Lindbergh was a huge Nazi proponent.
Pretending those didn't happen is part of the "American Fantasy" that we are always good. That "American Exceptionalism" shit that some like to spew.

Which is nothing but a lie.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[jakee 1,500]

DanG

Quote

Yes, absolutely. Why wouldn't I?

Because you can't even admit that our entry into the European theater, which you concede was not due to any threat to American interests, was good.

I didn't say that. I said it didn't happen because you thought either Hitler or Hirohito was threatening the idea of humanity.

When did everything get so black and white with you?

Quote

If you can't bring yourself to admit that the US helping to defeat the Nazis was good I can't imagine anything else that we've ever done meeting with your approval.

Sounds like you can't imagine the US has ever done anything good which didn't involve the deployment of the military

If we're playing this game.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[tkhayes 348]

you can ask RonD1120 himself for the verification of the story. It's not like he ever denied it the other couple of times that it came up.

You asked for examples. I gave them to you. 'fake news' right? So easy not having to think when you can simply parrot rhetoric like that. I would expect nothing less from you....

And it is not like I have to prove anything to you anyway, like suddenly you will change your views or even that your viewpoint matters in the greater picture of things

I have my well-founded opinions of RonD and he is the worst of what Christianity and religion bring to the table. I wouldn't sell him my snot.

[jakee 1,500]

tkhayes

you can ask RonD1120 himself for the verification of the story. It's not like he ever denied it the other couple of times that it came up.

Ron has on several occasions quoted the Romans line "Render unto Caesar" and explained that it means any national laws and any commands from a national ruler supercede the other teachings of Jesus. If the state orders you to kill for whatever reason, you kill, and Jesus approves of it.

That's also how he can justify not caring one iota about any fellow member of the human race who was born outside the borders of the USA.

It's a quite stunning reversal of the philosophy that should result from believing that all of humanity was created equal by god, and a perfect example of how religion can be manipulated into meaning whatever the believer wants it to mean.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Phil1111 1,149]

DanG

Quote

Yes, absolutely. Why wouldn't I?

Because you can't even admit that our entry into the European theater, which you concede was not due to any threat to American interests, was good.

If you can't bring yourself to admit that the US helping to defeat the Nazis was good I can't imagine anything else that we've ever done meeting with your approval.

Before and after the US entry to WW2. The US was the factory for war material. President Roosevelt violated and skirted US law in giving war supplies to allies.The law was cash and carry but in fact much was given.

Setting that aside. I'll restate that a powerful US military leads mickey mouse politicians to suggest important missions. Important national interests. It allows Fox news and liberal media to create all kinds of political pressure to right some wrong. Using US military force. When political forces, political alliances would do the job cheaper and without risking life or injury to service personnel.

[kallend 2,027]

DanG

Quote

The US got involved because you got attacked. before that you had no problem profiting of the Nazi regime. You have had multiple president's whose family wealth came from Nazi collaboration.

You had no problem with jews getting gassed and exterminated by the millions. Your government was aware and chose not to get involved.

"We cared about humanity" is revisionist bullshit.

Germany didn't attack us. Why did we get involved in Europe?

[email]When did they stop teaching history in the US?

Germany declared war on the USA on 11 Dec 1941. That's why the US got involved.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[RonD1120 62]

tkhayes

you can ask RonD1120 himself for the verification of the story. It's not like he ever denied it the other couple of times that it came up.

You asked for examples. I gave them to you. 'fake news' right? So easy not having to think when you can simply parrot rhetoric like that. I would expect nothing less from you....

And it is not like I have to prove anything to you anyway, like suddenly you will change your views or even that your viewpoint matters in the greater picture of things

I have my well-founded opinions of RonD and he is the worst of what Christianity and religion bring to the table. I wouldn't sell him my snot.

The Holy Spirit is dealing with me now about this issue. At the time you were bragging about aiding and abetting an enemy of the U.S.A. in a wartime situation. I was angered and I reacted, yes, overreacted.

I was foolish and nothing productive has come from my transgression.

At this juncture, I sincerely apologize. I am sorry for my behavior and I ask for your forgiveness.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[DanG 1]

So, according to you, the US had no national interest in fighting the Germans, but we sent hundreds of thousands of troops, billions of dollars in funds and equipment, and went on a national war footing because Germany declared war? Not because we were actually threatened by Germany, you already established that American liberty was never at stake. We did it all over a piece of paper?

And to get back to the point of the thread, the individual men and women who actually fought in Europe and the Pacific didn’t sell arms to the Nazis. What they did in helping to defeat the Axis was noble and heroic.

- Dan G

[jakee 1,500]

DanG

We did it all over a piece of paper?

In this case it's more complicated than that, but through the byzantine insanity that was late 19th to mid 20th century international politics, pieces of paper were that important. WW1 kciked off over a few pieces of paper. Most other nations joined WW2 over pieces of paper.

Quote

What they did in helping to defeat the Axis was noble and heroic.

Absolutely. But results don't define intentions. Although winning in europe closed down the concentration camps, it doesn't follow that the US joined the war to stop the holocaust.

Although winning in the Pacific halted Japanese atrocities in China and Burma, the US didn't join the war in order to protect Chinese citizens.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[mr2mk1g 10]

DanG

We did it all over a piece of paper?

So did we. A piece of paper sent on the morning that Germany invaded Poland that said words to the effect of "Confirm by 11am that you're pulling out of Poland or we'll declare war on you".

They didn't, so we went to war.

[Phil1111 1,149]

DanG

Quote

The US got involved because you got attacked. before that you had no problem profiting of the Nazi regime. You have had multiple president's whose family wealth came from Nazi collaboration.

You had no problem with jews getting gassed and exterminated by the millions. Your government was aware and chose not to get involved.

"We cared about humanity" is revisionist bullshit.

Germany didn't attack us. Why did we get involved in Europe?

The rest of your post is just your usual America bashing bullshit, intended to get a rise out of us dumb Yanks. I'm not biting.

There seems to be some revisionist ideology all around here.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/sep/25/usa.secondworldwar

http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/holocaust/timeline.html

https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/daily/nov98/nazicars30.htm

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2001/04/hitlers-willing-business-partners/303146/

Prior to the declaration of war by the US on Germany and the Axis. There was limited NEW contracts or support of the Axis powers for war materials. There was no violations subsequently prosecuted in the US for collusion of US corporations. No laws were passed and no discussions in congress limiting US corporations business interactions with the (subsequent)enemy axis.

and

REWRITING HISTORY AT THE HOLOCAUST MUSEUM: Why FDR abandoned the Jews
The U.S. Holocaust Museum's new exhibit on America and the Shoah tries to show that FDR did the best he could to help Jews during the Holocaust. Part 3 of a special 3 part series.
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/22102

History is a murky place. Rewritten to clarify, confuse and mislead.

[kallend 2,027]

Phil1111

***

Quote

The US got involved because you got attacked. before that you had no problem profiting of the Nazi regime. You have had multiple president's whose family wealth came from Nazi collaboration.

You had no problem with jews getting gassed and exterminated by the millions. Your government was aware and chose not to get involved.

"We cared about humanity" is revisionist bullshit.

Germany didn't attack us. Why did we get involved in Europe?

The rest of your post is just your usual America bashing bullshit, intended to get a rise out of us dumb Yanks. I'm not biting.

There seems to be some revisionist ideology all around here.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/sep/25/usa.secondworldwar

http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/holocaust/timeline.html

https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/daily/nov98/nazicars30.htm

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2001/04/hitlers-willing-business-partners/303146/

Prior to the declaration of war by the US on Germany and the Axis. There was limited NEW contracts or support of the Axis powers for war materials. There was no violations subsequently prosecuted in the US for collusion of US corporations. No laws were passed and no discussions in congress limiting US corporations business interactions with the (subsequent)enemy axis.



Prior to the declaration of war by the US on Germany, Nazi Germany had already declared war on the US.

Unfortunately some people get their history from Hollywood rather than from historians.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[gowlerk 2,206]

I'm not going to bother looking up confirmation for my understanding of why America got into WWII. As far as I'm concerned there were forces in the US that wanted to earlier but they could not overcome those with isolationist views or even those who sympathized with the Nazi regime. Japan's attack ended the influence of those people.

The underlying reason was nothing to do with morality and everything to do with wanting to preserve the existing power structure in Europe. As a general rule no nation wages war for moral reasons. People and nations wage war for territorial or economic reasons.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[billvon 2,998]

Quote

As far as I'm concerned there were forces in the US that wanted to earlier but they could not overcome those with isolationist views or even those who sympathized with the Nazi regime.

Also because the US was still smarting from losing 116,000 soldiers to The Great War (which was back at a time that our total population was 100 million.) Trying to get the US to enter a similar war 20 years later was a pretty hard sell. It would be like trying to convince the US to invade Vietnam in 1995 - "but this time it's _really_ important we fight the Viet Cong."

Of course, had Vietnam bombed Los Angeles, it would have suddenly gotten much easier.

[gowlerk 2,206]

Yes, there were quite a few good reasons not to get involved. In Canada we felt obliged to come to the defense of the Crown. But there was strong resistance in some quarters. Especially in Quebec. In 1942 there was a national plebiscite over conscription that most of English Canada supported and most of French Canada did not. It still is one of the larger forces dividing the country.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[jcd11235 0]

DanG

So, according to you, the US had no national interest in fighting the Germans, …

WTF?!?! How the fuck did you get THAT from "Germany declared war on the USA on 11 Dec 1941. That's why the US got involved."

For those who dropped out of school after the fifth grade (or may as well have, for all the attention they paid in class), when one country declares war on a second country, it behooves that second country to fight back. It is absolutely in their national interests to do so.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!