Can an atheist get into Heaven

[headoverheels 333]

RonD1120

Heaven is a destination according to Judeo-Christian-Islamic faith and belief.

FIFY

[jakee 1,489]

AlanS

***
Can an atheist make it into Heaven, presuming Heaven exists?

Well even if the rules of the after life said they could go to heaven, I think they should refuse to go just on principle. What good are you if you don't stand up for your principles.

It's a good line, but doesn't actually make any sense. The principle doesn't involve denying something that's staring you in the face. That's pretty much the opposite of the principle

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jaybird18c 24]

Heaven is where God is. God is holy. Assuming God exists, and I do, why should any of us be allowed there when we die let alone an atheist who ouright denies God?

[jakee 1,489]

jaybird18c

Heaven is where God is. God is holy. Assuming God exists, and I do, why should any of us be allowed there when we die let alone an atheist who ouright denies God?

Assuming God exists (and I don’t) why shouldn’t any of us be allowed into where he lives? Why not an atheist who denies god exists? If I die and find myself in front of a god, I’d obviously stop being an atheist - so what’s the problem?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jpjc2000 0]

I'm fairly sure being dead will be just like it was before I was born, from what I remember that was ok.

[wmw999 2,439]

I've heard heaven described as the feeling of connectedness with God, and hell as the feeling of separateness from God. By that definition, heaven and hell are both here.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[RonD1120 62]

The human mind can contemplate God or ego. Natural thought gravitates toward ego. Spiritual thought toward God. Trying to contemplate both at the same time will always assume ego is reality.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[RonD1120 62]

jpjc2000

I'm fairly sure being dead will be just like it was before I was born, from what I remember that was ok.

Just this morning during my devotions, I began to see that in the final trimester of fetal development the person is forming a spiritual relationship with God the father. At birth the individual is amazed at its existence and begins to seek understanding of its new environment. Somewhere in the first two years the individual develops ego and "I" becomes selfishly centralized.

Some of us remember our spiritual connection and try to regain it.

I believe that Jesus, the Christ, is the pathway to make that reconnection. I also believe that some have no desire to reconnect.

Without the reconnection, there is no heaven to return to. There is only the alternative of no connection to God, the creator.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[RonD1120 62]

headoverheels

***

Heaven is a destination according to Judeo-Christian-Islamic faith and belief.

FIFY

Not in my understanding of God's word.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[jaybird18c 24]

jakee

Assuming God exists (and I don’t) why shouldn’t any of us be allowed into where he lives? Why not an atheist who denies god exists? If I die and find myself in front of a god, I’d obviously stop being an atheist - so what’s the problem?

Because, again, God is holy and we are not. He is also perfectly just and we have not only broken his laws but have offended his very nature, continually. That is why no one deserves to be in his presence and consequently deserves punishment. Justice demands it.

[jakee 1,489]

RonD1120

The human mind can contemplate God or ego. Natural thought gravitates toward ego. Spiritual thought toward God. Trying to contemplate both at the same time will always assume ego is reality.

Yeah... I’m not going to pretend to have the faintest idea what the point of that tautology is supposed to be.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[yoink 321]

RonD1120

***I'm fairly sure being dead will be just like it was before I was born, from what I remember that was ok.

Just this morning during my devotions, I began to see that in the final trimester of fetal development the person is forming a spiritual relationship with God the father. At birth the individual is amazed at its existence and begins to seek understanding of its new environment. Somewhere in the first two years the individual develops ego and "I" becomes selfishly centralized.

Some of us remember our spiritual connection and try to regain it.


Wait wait wait - you stated very clearly just a few weeks ago that everyone is born sinful and that they have to find God in order to undo that.

Now you're reversing that and saying that everyone is born OK and gets sinful in the first couple of years because of this ego thing you bang on about.

and you're saying both of these things like it's fact 'because you see it' after thinking about it for a little while.


And you wonder why I have issues with your faith? It's inconsistent and entirely made up. You can change your stance as the wind blows to give yourself whatever comfy feeling you like. It's the ultimate get-out-of-jail-free card. You take no responsibility for your life, behaviour or actions because you've convinced yourself that 'I believe in Jesus so it'll be fine'.

I hope there IS a God and that they judge people based on how they've lived their lives. I think a lot of people who expect otherwise would be in for a very rude awakening.

[RonD1120 62]

yoink

******I'm fairly sure being dead will be just like it was before I was born, from what I remember that was ok.

Just this morning during my devotions, I began to see that in the final trimester of fetal development the person is forming a spiritual relationship with God the father. At birth the individual is amazed at its existence and begins to seek understanding of its new environment. Somewhere in the first two years the individual develops ego and "I" becomes selfishly centralized.

Some of us remember our spiritual connection and try to regain it.


Wait wait wait - you stated very clearly just a few weeks ago that everyone is born sinful and that they have to find God in order to undo that.

Now you're reversing that and saying that everyone is born OK and gets sinful in the first couple of years because of this ego thing you bang on about.

and you're saying both of these things like it's fact 'because you see it' after thinking about it for a little while.


And you wonder why I have issues with your faith? It's inconsistent and entirely made up. You can change your stance as the wind blows to give yourself whatever comfy feeling you like. It's the ultimate get-out-of-jail-free card. You take no responsibility for your life, behaviour or actions because you've convinced yourself that 'I believe in Jesus so it'll be fine'.

I hope there IS a God and that they judge people based on how they've lived their lives. I think a lot of people who expect otherwise would be in for a very rude awakening.

I believe man is born sinful because he will develop self consciousness. His ego will make him the center of his world. It is natural.

The natural has to be subverted to the spiritual by choice and by faith. That choice is available to all but only a few desire to take that path. It is the road less traveled.

What makes you think that I or any Christian does not take responsibility for our lives?

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[billvon 2,990]

>Heaven is where God is. God is holy. Assuming God exists, and I do, why should any of
>us be allowed there when we die let alone an atheist who ouright denies God?

Because assuming God exists, the further leap that he's just like a person, and deals in the same paradigms we do (privilege, entitlement, laws, physical place being important, denial as punishment, religion etc) is a very large one.

[yoink 321]

RonD1120

What makes you think that I or any Christian does not take responsibility for our lives?

I don't know you personally. Maybe you've lived a life of trying to make life better for people in general but I'd guess not. People who can do that typically don't categorize their fellow countrymen as their 'enemies'.

Extreme religion of any denomination spreads hatred, animosity and fear - If you're not one of us you're damned for ALL ETERNITY! Your babies are doomed to SIN! etc. Join us or be damned!

Religion is divisive, not inclusive - it gets it's insidious power by separating people into 'us' and 'them'.
For all the Bible's preaching about loving everyone a lot of very religious people seem to take that as 'love only those who I choose to love' and damn the rest.

And it's OK because your ultimate answer to ANYTHING is 'but I believe in X so it's OK / justified'. I think it's a cowardly way of living, but that's just my belief.


And by the way, if you're argument is man WILL develop self consciousness THEREFORE he is born sinful because it is guaranteed to happen without intervention it directly contradicts your hypothesis of a foetus having a spiritual relationship with God.

Relationship with God = not sinful (your definition).
Foetus = relationship with god (therefore not sinful)

As ego develops = sinful
Ego does not instantly develop at the second of birth but sometime over the first 2 years (your definition)

Instant of birth = sinful. BZZT. Does not compute. Illogical argument.


Say it with me - babies are NOT born sinful.
You can't have it both ways.

[BIGUN 1,298]

As Pope Pius XI noted in Quanto conficiamur moerore:

It is known to us and to you that those who are in invincible ignorance of our most holy religion, but who observe carefully the natural law, and the precepts graven by God upon the hearts of all men, and who being disposed to obey God lead an honest and upright life, may, aided by the light of divine grace, attain to eternal life; for God who sees clearly, searches and knows the heart, the disposition, the thoughts and intentions of each, in his supreme mercy and goodness by no means permits that anyone suffer eternal punishment, who has not of his own free will fallen into sin.

Pope Francis has good news for atheists. Jesus died and was raised for them as well. His redemptive embrace was for all, not just a chosen few.The choice to accept its reach is our own. The Holy Father was not teaching anything new. In fact, this hope that all who do not yet know God are not only capable of doing good - but will progress toward that knowledge of God by doing good - is ancient. The Church wants all men and women to be saved.

And, since I've had many issues with the "construct" of hell over time; If Mr. Hawking can't go to "Heaven; then what chance do any of the rest of us have? Heaven would be a very desolate place.

https://listverse.com/2015/10/03/10-biblical-reasons-why-hell-might-not-exist/

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[wmw999 2,439]

Thanks to wolfriverjoe for posting this thread; especially for doing so in a way that invites discussion rather than confrontation and baiting. Thought is pretty much always good.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[yoink 321]

'Heaven for climate, hell for company'

[jcd11235 0]

wmw999

I've heard heaven described as the feeling of connectedness with God, and hell as the feeling of separateness from God. By that definition, heaven and hell are both here.

Wendy P.

Wendy, you have no idea how much disappointment your posts cause me. Every time I read one, I look for the "Like" button, and I never can find that damn thing!

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[RMK 3]

Ron,

You're not the only one on the forum to ever take a psychology class (re your references to ego). Others here understand the Freudian concepts of id, ego and superego - but what does that really have to do with the concept of "God".

As a child when my mother dragged me to church 3x per week, I always wondered what if you were born before all these religions "rules for the pearly gates" and salvation?

What if you lived over 5000 years ago or on a remote island; so no baptism, acceptance of the Lord or even know what religion is? Was it just bad luck for you and no heaven?

"Pain is the best instructor, but no one wants to attend his classes"

[jclalor 12]

headoverheels

***

Heaven is a destination according to Judeo-Christian-Islamic faith and belief.

FIFY

The best explanation of heaven i’ve ever heard.

https://youtu.be/lYzRzHwHGKs

[jclalor 12]

RonD1120

*********I'm fairly sure being dead will be just like it was before I was born, from what I remember that was ok.

Just this morning during my devotions, I began to see that in the final trimester of fetal development the person is forming a spiritual relationship with God the father. At birth the individual is amazed at its existence and begins to seek understanding of its new environment. Somewhere in the first two years the individual develops ego and "I" becomes selfishly centralized.

Some of us remember our spiritual connection and try to regain it.


Wait wait wait - you stated very clearly just a few weeks ago that everyone is born sinful and that they have to find God in order to undo that.

Now you're reversing that and saying that everyone is born OK and gets sinful in the first couple of years because of this ego thing you bang on about.

and you're saying both of these things like it's fact 'because you see it' after thinking about it for a little while.


And you wonder why I have issues with your faith? It's inconsistent and entirely made up. You can change your stance as the wind blows to give yourself whatever comfy feeling you like. It's the ultimate get-out-of-jail-free card. You take no responsibility for your life, behaviour or actions because you've convinced yourself that 'I believe in Jesus so it'll be fine'.

I hope there IS a God and that they judge people based on how they've lived their lives. I think a lot of people who expect otherwise would be in for a very rude awakening.

I believe man is born sinful because he will develop self consciousness. His ego will make him the center of his world. It is natural.

The natural has to be subverted to the spiritual by choice and by faith. That choice is available to all but only a few desire to take that path. It is the road less traveled.

What makes you think that I or any Christian does not take responsibility for our lives?.

Every swinging dick thinks they’re on the road less travelled.

[RonD1120 62]

RMK

Ron,

You're not the only one on the forum to ever take a psychology class (re your references to ego). Others here understand the Freudian concepts of id, ego and superego - but what does that really have to do with the concept of "God".

As a child when my mother dragged me to church 3x per week, I always wondered what if you were born before all these religions "rules for the pearly gates" and salvation?

What if you lived over 5000 years ago or on a remote island; so no baptism, acceptance of the Lord or even know what religion is? Was it just bad luck for you and no heaven?

Before Jesus, the Christ, there was Mosaic Law. That is, the Hebrew Writings referred to as the Old Testament.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[RonD1120 62]

Happy St Patrick's Day

https://guslloyd.com/blogs/gus-lloyds-reflections/st-patricks-breastplate

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[jakee 1,489]

jaybird18c

Because, again, God is holy and we are not.

What is holiness, and why does it matter?

Quote

He is also perfectly just and we have not only broken his laws but have offended his very nature, continually.

He chose to make us in the full knowledge that we would all break those laws. A perfectly just being would take personal responsibility for the outcome, not pass the buck onto those he put into a no-win situation.

Quote

That is why no one deserves to be in his presence and consequently deserves punishment. Justice demands it.

Once again: Gaslighting.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?