DJL 235 #76 March 19, 2018 gowlerkQuoteWhat "is" the penalty? Death (Romans 6:23) Wait just one cotton picking moment there. Now I'm confused. First I hear that if I don't conform I will suffer in Hell for eternity. Now you are telling me that death is the penalty. What is it really? Execution or hard time forever? You religious people just can't seem to get your story straight. It's as if they're trying to get people to adhere to laws by invoking religious fears in a era when centralized government was incapable of such things. Hmmmmm........."I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,298 #77 March 19, 2018 gowlerkQuoteWhat "is" the penalty? Death (Romans 6:23) Wait just one cotton picking moment there. Now I'm confused. First I hear that if I don't conform I will suffer in Hell for eternity. Now you are telling me that death is the penalty. What is it really? Execution or hard time forever? You religious people just can't seem to get your story straight. The whole verse reads as: "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." What it means is that after death; the wages of sin are darkness. Darkness/Hell being dead and in the absence of God for all eternity. Light/Heaven being dead and in the presence of God for all eternity.Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gowlerk 2,190 #78 March 19, 2018 How do you know what it means? Why can't it mean what it says? Edit to add- How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,489 #79 March 19, 2018 BIGUNThe whole verse reads as: "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." What it means is that after death; the wages of sin are darkness. Darkness/Hell being dead and in the absence of God for all eternity. Then how did god pay the penalty for us? God can’t be in the absence of god, therefore god can’t fulfil the punishment due for sin, surely?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DJL 235 #80 March 19, 2018 Does it blow anyone's mind that we're sitting here debating superstitions? In 10k years I wonder if they'll look at archaeological internet records and discuss how quaint it was we still believed this stuff and chemically castrated homosexuals."I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jaybird18c 24 #81 March 19, 2018 jakeeUmmm.... but when it comes time for me to go to heaven or not.... I'll be dead. Everyone dies. Are there different kinds of death? Yes. There are different kinds of death. QuoteBecause, as was said, it is impossible for us to settle our own debt. Not through death? Physical death is the result of sin (Romans 5:12). Spiritual death is the result of final judgment (Matthew 25:31-46) QuoteI just don't see any reason to think any of this stuff is real. What's wrong with that? If I die and find out any of it is real, then I'll change my mind. Unfortunately, we’re not given a second chance in this regard. Sufficient evidence. Without excuse (Romans 1:20) Judgment follows death (Hebrews 9:27) QuoteFreedom to 'not sin'? What does that mean? It’s the difference between righteousness and self-righteousness. Since, as we discussed, it is impossible for us, in and of ourselves, to be righteous by God’s standard, he served as “our righteousness.” By faith, evidenced by repentance, God transforms our nature from one which was naturally hostile towards God to one which is amenable towards him. Now the things we do, however imperfect (Christians still sin), can be seen as good. That’s not to say that everything we do is. However, apart from God, even what we consider good deeds have selfish motives. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,298 #82 March 19, 2018 Quote How do you know what it means? Because, I read? Psalm 139:7–12, in which David says, "Where shall I flee from your presence? If I ascend to heaven, you are there! If I make my bed in Sheol, you are there!" Sheol is a transliteration of a Hebrew noun that means “the grave” or “the place of the dead.” Thessalonians 1:7–9 says that those who do not know God “will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.” In Revelation 14:10 - he also will drink the wine of God’s wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. ("presence" is a literal translation of the Greek enopion, which means "in the presence of, before). Quote Why can't it mean what it says? The Bible’s truths have to be shown to a person by God - Psalms 25:14 tells of one reason many have a hard time grasping the truths from the preserved Word of God as found in the King James Bible: “The secret of the Lord is with them that fear him; and he will shew them his covenant.” Many do not understand God’s Word because it is secret and can only be shown to a person by God. Read as; you're not part of the secret society Quote How many angels can dance on the head of a pin? 8.6766×10 to the 49th power. Hope that helps.Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,298 #83 March 19, 2018 QuoteThen how did god pay the penalty for us? God can’t be in the absence of god, therefore god can’t fulfil the punishment due for sin, surely? Good question. Maybe that's why Christ went to hell.Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jaybird18c 24 #84 March 19, 2018 DJLIt's as if they're trying to get people to adhere to laws by invoking religious fears in a era when centralized government was incapable of such things. Hmmmmm......... It's not primarily about fear. It's about hope. Without God, you have no hope and you're going to die. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jaybird18c 24 #85 March 19, 2018 BIGUNMaybe that's why Christ went to hell. Sheol/Hades was different from hell. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,489 #86 March 19, 2018 jaybird18c ***Ummm.... but when it comes time for me to go to heaven or not.... I'll be dead. Everyone dies. Are there different kinds of death? Yes. There are different kinds of death. Ok. You should consider that this is not obvious, and adjust your style of explaining accordingly Quote ***Because, as was said, it is impossible for us to settle our own debt. Not through death? Physical death is the result of sin (Romans 5:12). Spiritual death is the result of final judgment (Matthew 25:31-46) So what is spiritual death? How did god spiritually die? Quote Unfortunately, we’re not given a second chance in this regard. Why not? Why does the decision as to what happens to you forever and ever and ever depend on how you evaluated evidence during this tiny blink of an eye we call life on earth? Using the innate sense of justice that you believe I have I can tell you that it sounds perfectly unjust to punish someone for eternity when they have actually fulfilled the conditions for not being punished, if only slightly too late. Quote ***Freedom to 'not sin'? What does that mean? It’s the difference between righteousness and self-righteousness. What is the difference between righteousness and self-righteousness? Quote Since, as we discussed, it is impossible for us, in and of ourselves, to be righteous by God’s standard, he served as “our righteousness.” How did he do that? It hasn't gone unnoticed that you dodged expaining that question... Quote By faith, evidenced by repentance, God transforms our nature from one which was naturally hostile towards God to one which is amenable towards him. Now the things we do, however imperfect (Christians still sin), can be seen as good. How can they be seen as good? I thought you just said that the whole point is that the things you do are still bad, it's just that someone else got punished for them (in some very unclear way). Surely if the things you do are seen as good (for some faith related reason) then there would have been no need for anyone to be punished, neither you nor god? And I really don't see how that relates to this freedom to 'not sin'? What is that, exactly? Quote However, apart from God, even what we consider good deeds have selfish motives. What does that matter? If doing good makes someone feel good then maybe that is selfish... but isn't the kind of person who likes doing good the kind of person a perfectly good being would like to hang out with?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,489 #87 March 19, 2018 BIGUN Quote Then how did god pay the penalty for us? God can’t be in the absence of god, therefore god can’t fulfil the punishment due for sin, surely? Good question. Yeah. I know Quote Maybe that's why Christ went to hell. What happened to him then?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,298 #88 March 19, 2018 Hey!! I was raised Catholic... Hence, the "Apostle's Creed" version. Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,298 #89 March 19, 2018 jakee *** Quote Then how did god pay the penalty for us? God can’t be in the absence of god, therefore god can’t fulfil the punishment due for sin, surely? Good question. Yeah. I know Quote Maybe that's why Christ went to hell. What happened to him then? After three days; he arose and went to Heaven. To sit at the right hand of God. You're just fucking with me now, huh. Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,489 #90 March 19, 2018 BIGUN After three days; he arose and went to Heaven. To sit at the right hand of God. And that's the punishment due to sinners? I'd quite happily take that on myself, so what do I need him for? Quote You're just fucking with me now, huh. No, but you guys are definitely fucking with us. Jesus took the ultimate punishment for us... by going to the best place in the universe for all eternity. And if you don't accept that you have to take the punishment yourself.... of going to the worst place in the universe for all eternity. Ummm. Whaaaa?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,439 #91 March 19, 2018 I don't think they're trying to convince you. Just explain what's enough for them. Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,298 #92 March 19, 2018 Quote Jesus took the ultimate punishment for us... Us? Did Jakee just reveal his "inner" Christian? Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,489 #93 March 19, 2018 wmw999 I don't think they're trying to convince you. Just explain what's enough for them. Jay came into this thread with a question tailored to invite a Socratic debate. Now he's got one. Pretty sure we're both happy with thatDo you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,489 #94 March 19, 2018 BIGUN Quote Jesus took the ultimate punishment for us... Us? Did Jakee just reveal his "inner" Christian? Nope, just paraphrasing your statements. Would you agree with the way I stated the situation? If so, does it make sense to you?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,298 #95 March 19, 2018 Quote Would you agree with the way I stated the situation? If so, does it make sense to you? I should have wrote back, "That the spirit, mate." You pretty much nailed it. That was fun. What do we take on next? Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gowlerk 2,190 #96 March 19, 2018 QuoteMany do not understand God’s Word because it is secret and can only be shown to a person by God. I'm all good then. Since I spoke to Her personally during an acid trip in '74.Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyBoyd 0 #97 March 19, 2018 ryoder AndyBoyd??We thought you went extinct! I was asleep for a long time. # Rip Van Winkle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jaybird18c 24 #98 March 19, 2018 jakeeJesus took the ultimate punishment for us... by going to the best place in the universe for all eternity. God in three persons (Father, Son, Holy Spirit; Trinity) existed in eternity past, perfectly content, in need of nothing. What is amazing is that he humbled himself, becoming a man, on our behalf. It's the "solitary" attribute of God. Being Emanuel (God with us), he could efficiently represent our human nature, living in perfect adherence to the Law, which we could not. Being "the spotless/unblemished lamb," undeserving of God's wrath, he could serve as a substitute (propitiation). The reason Jesus' death was sufficient was because his life was worth more than all of us in the history of mankind combined. He didn't take the ultimate punishment for us by being tortured and crucified by Roman soldiers. He took the ultimate punishment for us by suffering the wrath of God himself which was aimed at us who deserved it. (Isaiah 53:10-12) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jaybird18c 24 #99 March 19, 2018 What is an "agnostic Christian" anyway? Do you not find that contradictory? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,990 #100 March 19, 2018 >What is an "agnostic Christian" anyway? Someone who believes in the basic teachings of Christianity but is unsure about the supernatural part of the religion. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
