Can an atheist get into Heaven

[jaybird18c 24]

Dr. Zacharias is talking asbout societal trend.

[gowlerk 2,190]

jaybird18c

Dr. Zacharias is talking asbout societal trend.

Yes, but what are YOU saying by quoting him and his ideas?

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[RonD1120 62]

gowlerk

Let me be clear that even though there is no evidence of God I in no way disrespect your belief in God. Faith is not something that requires evidence, that's why we call it faith. It is only your assertion that you can provide proof of God that I dispute.

Do you accept my proof of faith? Some folks only have one overwhelming experience of God but that is enough to last a lifetime. Some have had several spiritual experiences.

The key is to understand that a spiritual component of life exists and it can be studied. I believe most refuse to look at the spirit because it is intangible, yet it is real.

We are a spirit, we have a soul and we live in a body.

I focus my life more on my spirit and my relationship to God through the Christ than I do my body. My goal is to be so in tune with the Holy Spirit that when my body dies I don't even notice.

Is that possible?

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[DJL 235]

It's Ok to just say that you believe what you've learned and what you've read. There really is no proof for faith because faith is the expectation that something will occur in the future. There is literally no way to prove that the afterlife will be according to the Christian bible, you're just making a wager.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[jaybird18c 24]

Quote

There is literally no way to prove that the afterlife will be according to the Christian bible, you're just making a wager.

I think the point in all this is, despite it not being a calculable "proof," that it is a reasonable "wager." More reasonable than the atheistic alternative, in my opinion. I know you disagree.

[DanG 1]

Ah, so we finally get some movement on the lack of proof.

If we can only get you to understand that the lack of proof comes from the complete lack of evidence, we might be able to have an honest discussion.

- Dan G

[jakee 1,489]

jaybird18c

Dr. Zacharias is talking asbout societal trend.

Yet if you are in no way implying that lack of faith equals lack of morality why would there be a trend?

Furthermore, is there a trend? Is there any theocratic society in history that behaves better than our current secular western democracies?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jaybird18c 24]

DanG

Ah, so we finally get some movement on the lack of proof.

If we can only get you to understand that the lack of proof comes from the complete lack of evidence, we might be able to have an honest discussion.

No. There's plenty of evidence for God's existence. I tried to put it in legal terms as in a trial. Standard of proofs as in preponderance of the evidence vs. proof beyond a reasonable doubt. I put forth matter, energy, particularly information, and your conscience as general evidence of God. I might also add time. I believe all of those things had an origin and, specifically with information, an intelligent source. Again, I know you disagree. I'm ok with that. You just place your faith differently.

[jaybird18c 24]

Quote

Furthermore, is there a trend? Is there any theocratic society in history that behaves better than our current secular western democracies?

I know where you're going with that. Did you watch Dr. Zacharias' lecture?

https://youtu.be/Jo3vRqrW8NU

Anyway, it's a subjective question.

[JoeWeber 2,720]

jaybird18c

***Ah, so we finally get some movement on the lack of proof.

If we can only get you to understand that the lack of proof comes from the complete lack of evidence, we might be able to have an honest discussion.

No. There's plenty of evidence for God's existence. I tried to put it in legal terms as in a trial. Standard of proofs as in preponderance of the evidence vs. proof beyond a reasonable doubt. I put forth matter, energy, particularly information, and your conscience as general evidence of God. I might also add time. I believe all of those things had an origin and, specifically with information, an intelligent source. Again, I know you disagree. I'm ok with that. You just place your faith differently.


You merely wrote four words:

- Matter
- Energy
- Information
- Conscience

Now develop why each of those words is proof of God or the supposed Gods omniscience.

And please do not refer to what secularists believe as faith. That's just another silly trick to put our positions on an equal footing with yours. It's no different from the "polite society card".

What I believe has factual, scientific support.

You have in no way offered anything that can be called a preponderance of evidence. You quote the Bible. You quote interpretations of the Bible.

Science and Religion are not co-equal domains. One demands proof the other demands blind faith. You have no proof and you well know it.

[jcd11235 0]

RonD1120

Do you accept my proof of faith?

You've presented nothing remotely resembling a proof in this thread.

***The key is to understand that a spiritual component of life exists and it can be studied.

[DanG 1]

Those things are only evidence if you presume they can only exist due to God. Logically it is called begging the question. Here is your nutshell argument:

1. Matter, energy, information, conscience can only exist if there is a God.
2. These things exist.
3. Therefore there is a God.

1 is not evidence for 3. 1 presupposes 3.

- Dan G

[jcd11235 0]

jaybird18c

There's plenty of evidence for God's existence.

Then why has no one in the thread, or history, been able to provide any such evidence?

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[gowlerk 2,190]

Quote

Do you accept my proof of faith?

I accept your faith as genuine. It does not require proof. I accept that you had an experience that changed you. I do not accept your experience as proof of anything beyond that. It was your experience, it was a real experience for you.

Spirituality has always been real in humans for as long as we have been human. It can't be defined. It is like psychiatry. It can be studied but not fully understood because it resides within our brains and our brains are not fully understood. More like an art than a science. But I absolutely believe that the feelings of spirituality you describe within yourself are real feelings.

Quote

We are a spirit, we have a soul and we live in a body.

This I do not believe. At least not in the sense that you do. What I believe is that what we feel as a soul is really an artifact of how our brains work. In other words, we can feel spirituality as if it is a super natural force, but in reality it is a very physical thing that is part of our body.

Quote

My goal is to be so in tune with the Holy Spirit that when my body dies I don't even notice.

Is that possible?

I do not feel a need to live in eternity. I have no answer at all for this question. I do not believe that you, or anyone else will live on in an afterlife. But I do believe it is possible for you to die securely believing that you will. And if in your time of dying that comforts you and yours I can find no fault in that.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[RonD1120 62]

gowlerk

Quote

Do you accept my proof of faith?

I accept your faith as genuine. It does not require proof. I accept that you had an experience that changed you. I do not accept your experience as proof of anything beyond that. It was your experience, it was a real experience for you.

Spirituality has always been real in humans for as long as we have been human. It can't be defined. It is like psychiatry. It can be studied but not fully understood because it resides within our brains and our brains are not fully understood. More like an art than a science. But I absolutely believe that the feelings of spirituality you describe within yourself are real feelings.


***We are a spirit, we have a soul and we live in a body.

This I do not believe. At least not in the sense that you do. What I believe is that what we feel as a soul is really an artifact of how our brains work. In other words, we can feel spirituality as if it is a super natural force, but in reality it is a very physical thing that is part of our body.

Quote

My goal is to be so in tune with the Holy Spirit that when my body dies I don't even notice.

Is that possible?

I do not feel a need to live in eternity. I have no answer at all for this question. I do not believe that you, or anyone else will live on in an afterlife. But I do believe it is possible for you to die securely believing that you will. And if in your time of dying that comforts you and yours I can find no fault in that.

OK!

So far in my study, I equate human spirit as the elan vital.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[pchapman 279]

jaybird18c

No. There's plenty of evidence for God's existence.

And by the way, how does the evidence show that it is a CHRISTIAN god, and no other? That all those who follow other gods are all messed up?

As for Hitler, remember that his troops went into battle thinking "Gott mit uns" -- that the Christian god was with them. There's little point in trying to tie WWII in Europe to secularization. Everyone goes into battle believing in their gods...

You have faith. You believe in Rainbow Unicorns, or Gods or whatever. Fine. Maybe it helps you live a satisfying life and you are nice to others, good for you.

[DJL 235]

Quote

You merely wrote four words:

- Matter
- Energy
- Information
- Conscience

Now develop why each of those words is proof of God or the supposed Gods omniscience.

There's this concept in fad in Christian circles right now that the complexity of things like DNA and laws of physics as it relates to entropy are proof that only a concerted effort in the form of intelligent design could create life as we know it. It's a new version of the idea that if you can't understand it then the only answer is God. It of course, does nothing to prove that the Christian God is "the maker" and doesn't address that all of the previous superstitions have been disproved as we learn their scientific reasons. It also doesn't address the counter argument that it opens up that if life is created by God and there has to be something to create something then what created God (See the Turtle of enormous girth...)

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[jaybird18c 24]

pchapman

And by the way, how does the evidence show that it is a CHRISTIAN god, and no other? That all those who follow other gods are all messed up?

Good question. The answer is, the evidence mentioned doesn't specify. God's existence is "general revelation." God is specified in the "special revelation" of scripture.

[billvon 2,990]

>I put forth matter, energy, particularly information. . . .

Explicable via standard physics models.

>and your conscience as general evidence of God.

Animals have consciences, and have had them for millions of years. They are a natural consequence of the evolution of pack animals.

>I believe all of those things had an origin and, specifically with information, an intelligent source.

They did indeed have an origin. Nothing requires that origin to be supernatural.

And based on what we are learning about evolution, there's no sign that intelligence was part of it; the decisions evolution made have all been incremental and not very intelligent. For decades scientists have looked for examples that would disprove evolution - an adaptation that could not have evolved by a step-by-step process of ever-increasing fitness, for example. And every time they think they've found one, creationists have trumpeted it as proof that evolution doesn't work - only to watch as months or years later, scientists identify the steps in that process.

(Or, if there was some sort of intelligence involved, it was a spectacularly stupid one. Fetal circulation transition? External testicles? Giving birth through your _pelvis?_ Anyone could have done better than that.)

[BlitzPuppet 0]

Had this discussion with a number of women in my life before. I'm a lifelong non-believer that really doesn't have any interest in religion. I'm told I'm going to hell.

Sucks for me I guess, but honestly I'd have the same reaction if someone were to tell me I would never be able to use "the force". I'm no jedi :(

It usually causes issues in relationships that even though I'm a good man, I'm going to hell, but honestly it just turns me off to this idea since it feels bogus.

Some get over it, some don't, and some say they do but obviously haven't. It's something I learned that will always be an issue.

[billvon 2,990]

> I'm told I'm going to hell.

Some good news coming to you via the Pope, then. When asked about the fate of unrepentant sinners he had this to say:

"They are not punished. Those who repent obtain God's forgiveness and take their place among the ranks of those who contemplate him, but those who do not repent and cannot be forgiven disappear. A Hell does not exist, the disappearance of sinning souls exists."

[jaybird18c 24]

billvon

> I'm told I'm going to hell.

Some good news coming to you via the Pope, then. When asked about the fate of unrepentant sinners he had this to say:

"They are not punished. Those who repent obtain God's forgiveness and take their place among the ranks of those who contemplate him, but those who do not repent and cannot be forgiven disappear. A Hell does not exist, the disappearance of sinning souls exists."

There were really good reasons for the Reformation.

[gowlerk 2,190]

Quote

There were really good reasons for the Reformation.

Finally, something we can agree on! But a little basic research will show you that the recent uproar over the pope's opinion on the existence of Hell is false news. The pope believes in hell as far as any reasonable interpretation of what he has ever said will show.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[jaybird18c 24]

gowlerk

Quote

There were really good reasons for the Reformation.

Finally, something we can agree on! But a little basic research will show you that the recent uproar over the pope's opinion on the existence of Hell is false news. The pope believes in hell as far as any reasonable interpretation of what he has ever said will show.

I didn't make the remark about the Pope. I just said what I said about the Reformation. I realize you're obviously the smartest person in the room but a little basic research on your part would show you that.

[gowlerk 2,190]

jaybird18c

***

Quote

There were really good reasons for the Reformation.

Finally, something we can agree on! But a little basic research will show you that the recent uproar over the pope's opinion on the existence of Hell is false news. The pope believes in hell as far as any reasonable interpretation of what he has ever said will show.

I didn't make the remark about the Pope. I just said what I said about the Reformation. I realize you're obviously the smartest person in the room but a little basic research on your part would show you that.

There are several people who regularly post in this forum who are very obviously smarter than me. If I sometimes seem to be trying to appear intelligent it is merely because I'm attempting to keep up to those posters.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.